Some of you might remember from an older thread that I'm planning on "retiring" for a few years in Tokyo to attend language school on a full time basis. I'm currently planning on attending the ISI school near Shin-Okubo station and getting a nice apartment in the heart of the city. I also have a possibility of living with a Japanese native in Tokyo but I will not be able to determine that until he receives his job placement location. That being said I'm fully planning on living on my own.

However, lately I decided to be fair and browse alternatives. I've repeatedly come across people recommending Osaka over Tokyo for various reasons so after looking a bit I'm frankly shocked at just how much cheaper it is. The amount of apartments open to foreigners seems more abundant, the rent is vastly cheaper, and most of them have very low key money/deposit requirements.

I'm still pretty set on Tokyo but the price difference is enough that I thought I would at least ask for some opinions.

I would say that you will pay out of your butt regardless, apartments are overall insanely expensive in Japan. My friend lived in Fukuoka and while he planned to have an apartment, he moved out of it into a guesthouse after a while since the living conditions sucked for the price he paid (it was cheap by Japanese standards, but not otherwise).

I would not be too charmed by the price of cheap Osaka apartments because of this, if it's central and decently cheap it will probably be quite nasty. Living together with that Japanese guy sounds like your best option if it becomes a reality.

Overall though, Osaka can be quite a bit cheaper than Tokyo, when it comes to living expenses. I would say it's worth it to go to Tokyo if that is what you want, but if money is a big issue, Osaka might be better (though I think other places are even cheaper, Osaka is still the second biggest town so).

I pay 55,000yen/month for my studio in Tokyo. I was actually pretty surprised how cheap it is to live here. My upper and lower bounds are 100,000 to 150,000 yen per month for living expenses, which seems very cheap.

I came from one of the most expensive places in the US, so that might be the reason why I think it's cheap. However if you have a car and/or pay a lot for health insurance, you have a lot of "savings" in Japan.

PS it's 14 square meters and deposit/key money will kill you

I know about Japanese apartments. Their price compared to other apartments in the world is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm talking from a city and language learning perspective between just Osaka and Tokyo.

In fact I could actually make the argument that Tokyo apartments are cheap for what you get when transportation infrastructure, entertainment, eating, and shopping access is taken into account. That's another thread though.....or maybe not lol.

activeaero Wrote:I know about Japanese apartments. Their price compared to other apartments in the world is irrelevant to the discussion. I'm talking from a city and language learning perspective between just Osaka and Tokyo.

In fact I could actually make the argument that Tokyo apartments are cheap for what you get when transportation infrastructure, entertainment, eating, and shopping access is taken into account. That's another thread though.....or maybe not lol.

You're taught standard Japanese in both cities. So I would say it comes down to the following:

Tokyo is a really fun city with stuff to do all the time and it has pretty much everything you would find elsewhere in Japan.
Osaka isn't as fun (though still mighty fun) but the people are slightly easier to approach.

If you know natives in Tokyo who you can meet other Japanese people through, I would go to Tokyo. Otherwise, Osaka would maybe be better since the people in Osaka are slightly more open and it would probably be easier to make Japanese people from scratch there. Though, even so, I would still pick Tokyo if you're confident you can meet people regardless.

Tobberoth Wrote:it would probably be easier to make Japanese people from scratch there.

Cloning for fun, profit and second language acquisition!

pm215 Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:it would probably be easier to make Japanese people from scratch there.

Cloning for fun, profit and second language acquisition!

Wow, how did I mess that up? I should go to bed earlier and stop writing posts when I just got up in the morning.

Rent in Japan is much cheaper than rent in Canada, but that is because there are no 1K in Canada. If you want to rent, you have to end up renting a 3LDK and getting a bunch of roommates. There are some smaller places near the center of big cities, but they are insanely expensive (~$1000/mo) due to their convenient location.

My current apartment in Nagoya costs (base rate of) 4.5man/month for a new place of decent 1K size with furniture/appliances/water/fiber-internet included. After insurance and coop blah blah fees I end up paying 5.2man. There are literally no apartments of any size in Canada that cheap.

Food/groceries is also much cheaper here, if you make some dietary adjustments.

But yes, Tokyo is overrated and not worth the expense unless you are fully employed at a job with decent pay (meaning not an eikaiwa drone). Osaka ftw. You can always make day trips to check out the Tokyo sights.

There was another post that got into the topic of private tutoring for part time work. This is 100% speculation, but it might be easier to find that kind of work in Tokyo. If you have a separate skill such as programming, translating, etc, I'd imagine that'd be easier in Tokyo too.

I personally came to Tokyo because I didn't know anybody here. I knew if I went to Fukuoka or Osaka, I might hang out with my old classmates from the US and use English. One of the major deciding factors when I picked my language/university prep school was also the fact that there's almost nobody from English speaking countries. I think I'm currently the only person right now (two if you count Singapore Chin-glish).

I havn't spent too much time in Osaka, but I personally think the longer you're going to be in Japan, the better Tokyo would be for opportunities.

You can always relocate to Tokyo should an opportunity arise. It's like 1.5 hours on the newest shinkansen now. There is no point in spending 2x on cost of living in the meantime. Pay isn't higher in Tokyo to compensate either (for eikaiwa drone jobs anyways). Most people who work in Tokyo but aren't rich just have crappy/long commutes from the countryside or neighbouring prefectures.

I think the cost of living problem in Tokyo is largely a myth perpetuated by foreigners trying to live US lifestyles.

If you are willing to lower your standards a bit (especially dealing with housing) then you can live very cheaply in Tokyo.

I was an exchange student in Osaka about twenty years ago, and really loved the area. The people were great, Kyoto and Nara and lots of other cool historic sites close by. I was at Kansai Gaidai, which is more than just a language school. I was able to get college credits and take classes in English for my major. The best part for me was living with a host family. Some people didn't have good luck with that, but my family ROCKED! You might look into that. Perhaps the language school you attend can help you with housing. I know dorms don't sound like fun, but that is where Japanese students will live, so you can make friends. Also, Having your own appartment can be expensive, but also lonely and isolated, perhaps you can find shared housing with Japanese students. Good Luck!

Womacks23 Wrote:I think the cost of living problem in Tokyo is largely a myth perpetuated by foreigners trying to live US lifestyles.

If you are willing to lower your standards a bit (especially dealing with housing) then you can live very cheaply in Tokyo.

This is true. Change your diet and buy groceries in the evening when prices are greatly lowered and you can live really cheap. Hell, I spend 150 000 yen a month and that included EVERYTHING including at least one party each week with izakaya and everything. And I also ate out several days a week.

Tobberoth Wrote:Hell, I spend 150 000 yen a month and that included EVERYTHING including at least one party each week with izakaya and everything. And I also ate out several days a week.

I hope its not an example of this "cheap living" option

One thing I want to ask is how do I go about working (legally only) in Japan? Is it hard to get a working visa while you're there on a tourist one? Does it require leaving the country for paperwork, formalities etc.?

Also is it at all possible for a non-native to get work teaching English? Do any English certificates help? I figure eikaiwa is one of the easiest options to get work, no matter how underpaid it is.

thurd Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:Hell, I spend 150 000 yen a month and that included EVERYTHING including at least one party each week with izakaya and everything. And I also ate out several days a week.

I hope its not an example of this "cheap living" option

One thing I want to ask is how do I go about working (legally only) in Japan? Is it hard to get a working visa while you're there on a tourist one? Does it require leaving the country for paperwork, formalities etc.?

Also is it at all possible for a non-native to get work teaching English? Do any English certificates help? I figure eikaiwa is one of the easiest options to get work, no matter how underpaid it is.

It's theoretically possible to teach English even if you're not native, but yeah certificates are more or less a must and even then, you need a lot of luck.

And yeah, I consider 150 000 yen cheap since it includes everything. Remember, just the place where I lived cost more than a third of that.

Tobberoth Wrote:It's theoretically possible to teach English even if you're not native, but yeah certificates are more or less a must and even then, you need a lot of luck.

Still its a ray of hope, luck is always a huge factor when looking for work. I'd mainly look for some IT job not requiring Japanese but its always nice to have some backup plan. I've read in a lot of places about how TOEIC is popular in Japan and how it helps if a foreigner has one if he's trying to find a job, maybe it might increase my chances in eikaiwas.

Tobberoth Wrote:And yeah, I consider 150 000 yen cheap since it includes everything. Remember, just the place where I lived cost more than a third of that.

Even if it includes rent it seems quite a lot for me, over a double of Grinkers costs. If I understood both of you correctly your rent seems to be almost identical (around 50k) but his costs (15k) are completely different than yours (100k).

I can manage 70k for several months on my savings but if I double that it just means I'm burning through cash twice as fast and I'm less likely to stay longer. Having a job would help but I'm not kidding myself, it will take a good while before that happens.

15 000 is insane. On a good party in Japan, you will spend at least 3000 yen, probably closer to 5000. If you're a language student like I was, expect to party a lot.

I couldn't live on 15 000 yen a month in Sweden, and I live at home for free, including food and all.

In fact, just my railpass in Tokyo (which took me the 40 minutes I needed to go from Matsudo to Shin-Okubo) cost me 13 900 yen. 15k is very unrealistic IMO.

Sure Tokyo can be made cheaper by adjusting your lifestyle, but you need to settle for a lot lower to live in Tokyo compared to Osaka, Nagoya, or anywhere else in Japan. Rent, food, transportation*, and entertainment is all more expensive. Even at fastfood places like Yoshinoya everything on the menu is at least 50Y more expensive. I don't really see the appeal of Tokyo other than for short visits. There is a lot more to do in Osaka and the surrounding area, especially for sightseeing, and it requires a lot less travel thanks to the compactness of the area.

*Nagoya has the most expensive transit system in Japan, probably due to Meitetsu and the bus system that doesn't have transfers. I burn through ~13000mo on transportation alone, despite using my bike a lot. Despite the high cost of transportation, Nagoya still doesn't have IC cards for train passes - everything is still a paper ticket!

My budget is about 8man/month for rent/utilities/food (in Nagoya). I make more than that teaching private students, which means my entire day job salary goes into the bank.

thurd Wrote:Even if it includes rent it seems quite a lot for me, over a double of Grinkers costs. If I understood both of you correctly your rent seems to be almost identical (around 50k) but his costs (15k) are completely different than yours (100k).

I was retarded last night, add a zero to those numbers... I'm right about where Tobberoth is, and I think that's pretty normal for somebody who's living cheap but still going out and doing fun things. I'm closer to 100,000 on months where I don't go out much, and up to 150,000 on months I go out a lot more.

Also that includes everything, just like Tobberoth.

This is of course not including my first two months which I bought a new TV, electronic dictionary, camera, PS3, iphone...

If you got a 3,000/yen per hour tutoring job, like what was discussed in another thread, and work 10 hours/week... that's 129,000/month (4.3 weeks). It might be worth looking into getting a minimum hours/week job for the visa, and tutor on the side. I'm guessing based on your writing, you're perfectly fluent in English!

Jarvik7 Wrote:There is a lot more to do in Osaka and the surrounding area, especially for sightseeing, and it requires a lot less travel thanks to the compactness of the area.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm aware of the sight seeing opportunities in the Kansai area but in terms of everyday city life what is there more to do of in just Osaka itself?

activeaero Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:There is a lot more to do in Osaka and the surrounding area, especially for sightseeing, and it requires a lot less travel thanks to the compactness of the area.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm aware of the sight seeing opportunities in the Kansai area but in terms of everyday city life what is there more to do of in just Osaka itself?

I would say no, I think he was referring to the whole area. Kyoto is amazing for sightseeing, but I don't feel the same at all for Osaka. It's a lovely city, but there was definitely less to see. As for everyday life, I can't really say much though since I was only there for a few days. The downtown area(s) seemed nice enough and they had some amazing restaurants so I believe partying in Osaka can be a great experience.

Yeah that was what I was wondering about. I know Osaka is a great place but I really don't want to give up much of the big city experience as it is one of my main reasons for choosing Tokyo in the first place. I was raised for most of my life in a small town everyone is your neighbor kind of place and now I want to experience the exact opposite. It's great to live in a friendly place but I make friends easily so unless Tokyo residents are just THAT much more dull than Osaka residents that part doesn't really concern me.

Tobberoth Wrote:Kyoto is amazing for sightseeing, but I don't feel the same at all for Osaka. It's a lovely city, but there was definitely less to see. As for everyday life, I can't really say much though since I was only there for a few days. The downtown area(s) seemed nice enough and they had some amazing restaurants so I believe partying in Osaka can be a great experience.

Agreed! People rave about Osaka, so I put aside a full week for it when I was in Japan last year, but ran out of things to do quite quickly. I wished I'd only done 3-4 days there and used the rest for extra time in Kyoto, really. Not to suggest Osaka isn't a great place, it just didn't live to the hype, imo. Tokyo, on the other hand, was also given a week, but I saw maybe a quarter of what I wanted to (because I actually took my time, wandered around, people-watched from cafes, etc.). I'm actually going back in a couple of months time just to hang around in Tokyo/Yokohama.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I'm doing something similar to you later in the year (though I'm going over on a working holiday visa, because I won't have enough saved to fully fund my studies *sigh*) and have decided to base myself in Tokyo. Rent and living expenses are almost exactly the same as in Sydney (and cheaper than when I was in London), so I don't see it as being a particularly expensive place to live.

Have you been to Japan before? I have to say that - if you can afford the time and money - actually visiting and 'taste testing' different cities makes the choice a bit clearer. If I'd gone in blind and started my working holiday last year, I would've picked Osaka based purely on recommendations, but now I know it's probably not the place for me. It might be the place for you, though...? I reckon you should check it out first hand, if you can.

(P.S. This is easy to say, coming from an Aussie who can get $AU350 ($US320) flights, and whose flights only take 10 hours, who suffers no jet lag due to the 1-2 hour time difference, and whose dollar is quite strong right now. Your situation is obviously different, but hopefully my suggestions aren't completely useless!)

I'm gonna just dump this link in here for The Yamasa Institute a Japanese Language School website I ran across. Per the site it is located in Okazaki City between Tokyo & Osaka. The site says it all.

Momus prefers Osaka, I think: http://imomus.livejournal.com/517808.html