activeaero, I really think the only way you are going to legitimately determine which city is right for you is to basically live in one or the other.. People can give advice, and it's certainly helpful, but you are you, and they are them, and your experiences are likely to be different. For example, from everything I heard, I thought I would like Washington, but it was dreary and everyone was poorly dressed and rude. You just can't know until you actually live there and experience it for yourself.

Osaka isn't going to be anywhere on par with Tokyo, but it has a population of almost 3 million people and compared to where you're living, it's definitely a big city.

Womacks23 Wrote:I think the cost of living problem in Tokyo is largely a myth perpetuated by foreigners trying to live US lifestyles.

If you are willing to lower your standards a bit (especially dealing with housing) then you can live very cheaply in Tokyo.

It's not so much a myth as it is a difference in perspective. Just my bedroom, for example, is likely about the size of an entire Japanese apartment, if not larger. To me, spending upwards of $700 on a 15 square meter apartment is absolutely insane. It's like paying $700 for a closet. That price is in no way acceptable. Certainly to a Japanese person, however, it's normal.

mirina Wrote:It's not so much a myth as it is a difference in perspective. Just my bedroom, for example, is likely about the size of an entire Japanese apartment, if not larger. To me, spending upwards of $700 on a 15 square meter apartment is absolutely insane. It's like paying $700 for a closet. That price is in no way acceptable. Certainly to a Japanese person, however, it's normal.

But paying $700 for an apartment in Tokyo gives you access to things that are almost impossible to find in America for a similar price. That's why, IMO at least, you can't take a single cost of living factor and just analyze it in a vacuum.

For example I live in one of the lowest cost of living areas in the United States. For $700 a month I can have a two bedroom, two bath room apartment in a great area of town. When I tell people about Tokyo apartments most people balk until I have them consider the following:

1. A "good" area of town in most U.S. cities will still have a violent crime rate that is often multitudes greater than the most "dangerous" areas of Tokyo.

2. You have to own a car to get around in 99% of US cities. Believe it or not the average American spends approximately $650 per month on automobile expenses over his or her life. That's car payments, insurance, upkeep, etc. A $700 a month Tokyo apartment gives you access to one of the best transportation systems in the world and eliminates all of the headaches associated with owning and storing a vehicle.

3. City build up is arranged in a way that a large living space isn't needed like it is in most U.S. cities. The spread out automobile society of most U.S. cities makes it where most people feel the need to keep a lot of entertainment and food preparation ability on hand in their own home. If they didn't they would have to drive all over the place on a daily basis to satisfy their entertainment and food needs which would be a major pain in the ass. On the other hand $700 Tokyo apartment gives you access to a train station centric society. Within a 5-10 minute walk from most people's "home" stations is often a large variety of food and entertainment establishments.

If people needed large kitchens in Japan they would have it. If they needed lots of extra space to entertain guests in home they would have it. If they needed a car and the associated parking/garage space they would have it. However, with the way their society is set up they often have alternative variants of those same "luxuries", often in superior forms, within close proximity to where they live.

That's why when I really calculate up the true costs of living I believe Tokyo is actually pretty darn cheap for what it offers.

Hey activeaero, you should read the post above mine about what I think of Tokyo

Seriously though, I love it in Tokyo. I originally came here for one year at a language school to see how I would like Japanese/Tokyo life, then decide what to do after that. The only thing I'm thinking right now is "I wish I moved here earlier". I can't help but think of all the money I dumped into my car, health insurance, etc.

I also enjoy living in Tokyo. My living costs were far higher due to my lifestyle in Canada. You just adjust your life, it's not that big a deal. I've never been to Osaka, but I think it's funny when I hear foreigners doing the same thing that the Japanese people do saying one is better than the other. It reminds me of living in Alberta having people do the same thing with Edmonton and Calgary.

Either place will be a different experience, and unless you move to the other city you won't be able to tell what was better. Also, you can live outside of the 23 wards in Tokyo, it doesn't take long to get downtown if you don't go too far out. This will reduce your rent cost substantially.

Axlen Wrote:I'm gonna just dump this link in here for The Yamasa Institute a Japanese Language School website I ran across. Per the site it is located in Okazaki City between Tokyo & Osaka. The site says it all.

Living in Okazaki is definitely *not* the 'big city experience', though :-) Tokyo's population is over 8 million; Osaka over 2.5 million; Nagoya over 2 million; Okazaki's is less than 400,000...

(Wikipedia says Japanese 町 can become 市 when they get above 50,000 people. That's much lower than I would tend to think of the border between the English words "town" and "city". When I lived in Okazaki it definitely felt like a 'town' kind of size to me.)

I'm not saying Osaka is better than Tokyo, I'm saying Tokyo isn't worth the 2x cost of living. I also wasn't comparing the cost of living between Japan and the west, so "adjusting your lifestyle" will make no difference since you'd have to do the same in both cities. When it comes down to it, food, rent, and entertainment is much more expensive in Tokyo.

A better question than asking "what does Osaka have that Tokyo doesn't" is to ask what Tokyo has that makes it worth spending so much more money. The answer is: not much. There is nothing you can do in Tokyo that you can't do in Osaka, you just have many more places to do those same things. If sightseeing is one of your goals, Osaka is much better. That isn't to say that Osaka has a ton to see, but there is a LOT around Osaka in the Kansai area (Kyoto, Nara, Himeji, Kobe, etc). Tokyo is a relatively new capital, and for most of Japanese history it was the untamed frontier, so there isn't nearly as much. Osaka is also known as "Japan's kitchen", meaning the food is better while still being cheap.

Osaka may be smaller than Tokyo, but so is every other city on the planet. It doesn't mean that Osaka is small by any means.

Re: The comparison to people arguing about Edmonton vs Calgary... They are all wrong - both cities suck and so does hockey

You are right, both cities will have the same things in them. If I had a choice I would rather live in a cheaper city with the same amenities. Places I have been in Kansai have been awesome for sightseeing. I wouldn't go as far to say that there isn't lots interesting places to see around Tokyo though. Plus with Japan being not a geographically huge country you can travel anywhere on it's extensive train system quickly. (so I guess why not live in a cheaper city if you have the option?)

I will agree that hockey does suck, but I do have a soft spot for stabmonton.

I'm sure Tokyo costs more than Osaka, but it's nowhere near twice as much. Tobberoth and I both live/lived in Tokyo for about 150,000 yen per month (I'm actually closer to 130,000). I really doubt you could live anywhere in Japan for 75,000 yen per month.

Keep in mind we're (at least I am) including rent, utilities, food, insurance, etc.

I pay ~8man/month in Nagoya and I'm hardly scrimping. Rent + Food + Utilities + expensive cellphone (32gb iphone 3gs /w visual voicemail option) + entertainment. That is just a bit more than half.

If I was in Osaka I could probably chop another 5000-7000yen or so off since food there is so cheap (about 1/2-2/3 the price of Nagoya for groceries), as is transportation. I could also get a cellphone plan that costs half of what I pay now.

A decent apartment (like mine) near the center of Tokyo (like mine is near the center of Nagoya) would cost more than I spend for everything combined. I just did a quick check on the site for the apartment company I use for Shinjuku. The cheapest apartment the same size as mine (approx 20m^2) costs over twice as much and is 16 years older (meaning it's out of date and rundown)..

If you really like Tokyo I can see spending the extra money to stay there, IF you're employed. It's a real waste of money to live there off of a student loan or savings though.

That's pretty cheap! What kind of place do you live in? Do you cook for yourself most of the time? Maybe I'll move to Nagoya :o

Too bad University wise, Tokyo is the best for me. I wasn't originally planning on taking two years to enter a University in Japan, and could easily have spent my first year here in a cheaper location.

I eat out probably 3-4 times a week (sometimes lunch, sometimes dinner), although that means fastfood (udon, donburi, ramen, etc). There isn't much of a price difference if you cook a well balanced meal for yourself since vegetables are so expensive here :/ I miss grocery stores in Osaka. The main reason I eat out is just because on certain days my private tutoring schedule means I can't be home to cook at meal-time.

My apartment is only 2~3 years old and I'm the 2nd occupant. It's a 1K (about 20m^2) with furniture, appliances (including a TV), water, cable tv access, and fiber internet included. The rent is 4.5man + public maintenance fee + insurance = 5.2man. There was no keymoney or damage deposit. The Shinjuku apartment I found was 9.9man for the base rate and it's a shithole in comparison

That's not too bad at all. I think one of the things that makes Tokyo pretty expensive is having to pay for internet, and all that. Another thing that I'm not including is I had to buy a lot of stuff, such as furniture, when I moved here (not to mention deposit/key money). I dumped a LOT of money on my first two months here.

I did have to buy a bunch of small stuff for the kitchen & bathroom etc, but Nagoya has many amazing 100Y stores selling stuff that isn't crap and cheap home outfitting stores like Nittori.

There's a lot in Tokyo too. I think I also wasted a lot of money just being clueless for the first half of year here. I mean I bought a prepaid phone when I first got here thinking I wouldn't be using my phone too much. First month I spent over 6,000 yen. I ended up getting an iphone, but I wasted 10,000 on that stupid prepaid phone.

Live and learn.

Shinjuku is an expensive place in Tokyo to live. You can live in other areas even on the Yamanote line that are FAR cheaper. Or you could live outside of the 23 wards and pay way cheaper rent and only be 30-40 minutes on the train to Shinjuku. I'm not disputing whether Osaka/nagoya are cheaper, that's a given. But you can easily find cheap places in Tokyo too. It's a big place, you just have to look.

Alright I'm going to toss my 2cents in on this one. I briefly looked through some of the comments here.

I am currently living in Osaka, I'm here on a study abroad at Kansai University. I live in a dorm currently which has a monthly rent of about 25,000yen give or take. There have been a number of people here who have moved out of the college provided living arrangements and into their own apartments for one reason or another. By yourself the apartments might still end up being more expensive after the fact, but it depends where you look here in Osaka.

Food is cheap here as some people have mentioned. I can go out and find a decent meal for less than 1,000yen, sometimes around 400-500yen which is pretty good. I do believe the portion size in Osaka is smaller compared to Tokyo though, so keep that in mind.

For cellphone, I'm with Softbank right now and pay usually around 6000yen a month for my phone bill. I paid 15,000 upfront for my phone though so that when I cancel it in 6 months I won't have to pay a cancellation fee that's huge. That includes a voice plan and a net/data plan so-to-speak (which is pretty much required).

That aside, I wanted to add on my personal opinion about Osaka vs Tokyo as a city. I was in Tokyo for about 5 days at the end of December and noticed a few things. First, getting around Tokyo is about the same price as getting around most parts of Osaka I think, in fact I would say its probably cheaper in most rights. The thing about Tokyo that bugged me though honestly was the way Japanese tended to react to me. Here in Osaka I rarely get greeted in English or communicated in English with; however, just about every place I went to in Tokyo I was met with English and only ended up getting Japanese in some cases when I refused to switch out of Japanese. Additionally, Tokyo is a more Western city than probably anywhere else in Japan. I got that from all the signs I saw around, the atmosphere (They seemed more paranoid there too, saw so many signs about "reporting suspicious packages" which I never see in Osaka), and the number of foreigners you just see everywhere all the time.

If you are looking for the big city feel though, I would say that Osaka has it as well. Some people disagree with me here it seems, but I would call Osaka a baby-Tokyo. It doesn't have anywhere near the same amount of skyscrappers that Tokyo does but if you get down in Umeda(梅田） you can see some. It does have its fashion districts like Shibuya/Shinjyuku/Ginza, those are in and around Shinsaibashi（心斎橋）. It has its own "electric town" just like Akihabara, thats in Nipponbashi(日本橋） and is referred to as DenDen Town(でんでんタウン). The famous food district known as Doutonbori(道頓堀）is also in Nipponbashi. The scale of all the stuff is much smaller compared to Tokyo but I don't think that's much of a problem.

If you are up for sight seeing, you can hop on one of the limited express trains and ride from Umeda station to Kawaramachi station in Kyoto for just a little over 400yen. Going to Kobe is about the same deal and I had a friend tell me he went to Nagoya by shinkansen for only about 6000yen round trip. Getting to Tokyo from Osaka isn't difficult either. You can get on a nightbus from Umeda to Shinjyuku station for around 5,000yen (Standard bus, NEVER take these they are worse than Greyhounds in the states), or 7000yen on a sleeper bus. Shinkansen is about 15,000yen (roundtrip?) so I hear, to Tokyo. From Osaka to Hokkaido you can go by ferry for about as little as 5,000yen and that's a night trip as well. There is also a train (not shinkansen) that runs Osaka to Hokkaido for about 20万ー25万 (one way). So getting to other parts of Japan isn't difficult from Osaka either.

I think what it comes down to is what you want most out of where you are staying. I value to the emphasis on immersion, being forced to use your Japanese is fairly important, and when given a crutch (English) you'll be likely to use it. Before I came, I was slightly disappointed I wasn't going to be in Tokyo which I saw as the "only" big city in Japan, but after being here in Osaka for 5 months almost, I have to say it seems like such a null point now. Osaka has many of the same things that Tokyo has, but not only that, those things aren't nearly that important any more. The "oooh Akihabara" "oooh Shibuya" "oooh big buildings" feeling (ie: Honeymoon phase) does wear off and you have to deal with what you have left.

Honestly, if you goal in coming to Japan is Japanese. Move to a region that's outside Tokyo/Osaka and slightly mid-city to small city sized, but still has train access to the big city. I think you'll find the cost of living to be much cheaper and your Japanese use will be forced. (If you choose an option like this and need to get from Home->School, most railways allow you to buy a pass for a decent that lets you go back and forth from 2 specific stations however many times you must).

My 2cents. Hope it helps.

tl;dr: You're mileage will vary where you go. Osaka and Tokyo have the same city sights, but much different feel.

Indeed the best thing to do if your goal is learning Japanese is to move to the most rural area you can find. Everyone will know who you are so you'll probably be asked over for dinner etc and have no problems finding people to talk with (unless they chase you out of the town with pitchforks for being a foreign devil). You'll also be so bored out of your skull that you'll have no trouble concentrating on study and won't have to worry about avoiding English/other foreigners.

@Risumiso: I could live a 40minute train-ride away from Nagoya station (for example, in the previously mentioned Okazaki) and pay much less than I do now. If you're going to live a crappy commute away from the happening parts of Tokyo, why even bother with Tokyo?

Jarvik7 Wrote:Indeed the best thing to do if your goal is learning Japanese is to move to the most rural area you can find. Everyone will know who you are so you'll probably be asked over for dinner etc and have no problems finding people to talk with (unless they chase you out of the town with pitchforks for being a foreign devil). You'll also be so bored out of your skull that you'll have no trouble concentrating on study and won't have to worry about avoiding English/other foreigners.

@Risumiso: I could live a 40minute train-ride away from Nagoya station (for example, in the previously mentioned Okazaki) and pay much less than I do now. If you're going to live a crappy commute away from the happening parts of Tokyo, why even bother with Tokyo?

40 minutes away from the happenings > a really expensive shinkansen ride away.

I also want to note on what vix86 said about food costs. Less than 1000yen for a meal is pretty much given in Tokyo as well, I doubt the prices differ all that much. Sure, if you want to go to a yakiniku restaurant you will have to pay up, but a big bowl of ramen costs no more than 600 yen, usually way less than that.

Well remember guys this is also a mini-retirement/vacation for me as well as a Japanese language learning experience. I would seriously love to experience the Japanese countryside but since I grew up on a small farm raising cows, goats, growing corn, etc I'm not exactly looking for the Japanese version of that same experience right now. I'm going to live in a big city first and that's that.

To give you an idea of where my head is at right now, in terms of Tokyo life, I'm pretty dead set on living around the Yoyogi station area if I don't get a place with my Japanese buddy. I can get a newer apartment just a few minutes walk from the station for about 90,000 a month. I would then get a commuter pass that doesn't just go from Yoyogi station to my school in Shinokubo, but one that starts from maybe even as far as Shinagawa and extends to Ikebukuro along the Yamanote line. I learned that a lot of commuter pass costs are up front and that extending the pass for more stations in either direction often adds relatively little to the price. Believe it or not the Ikebukuro to Shinagawa commuter pass is only 6000 yen per month and yet covers 14 Yamanote line stations (including Shibuya, Shinjuku, Ebisu, Harajuku, etc). Since Yoyogi is kind of in the center of the line between Shinagawa and Ikebukuro that would cover a huge portion of my monthly travels both for entertainment and school purposes.

So that's the kind of lifestyle I'm looking to experience. I want to be able to walk out of my front door and be in a happening place in just minutes. If I'm going to live in one of these major cities I want to live IN it. A 40 minute train commute just to save a few hundred dollars a month isn't worth it to me.

So what I'm asking is does Osaka have something that will come close to that same type of Tokyo living environment....just cheaper?

activeaero Wrote:So what I'm asking is does Osaka have something that will come close to that same type of Tokyo living environment....just cheaper?

I would say probably not, I'd still cite my earlier opinions about Tokyo being more Western, the people that are there, and how they interact with you. Osaka's a baby Tokyo.

activeaero Wrote:Well remember guys this is also a mini-retirement/vacation for me as well as a Japanese language learning experience. I would seriously love to experience the Japanese countryside but since I grew up on a small farm raising cows, goats, growing corn, etc I'm not exactly looking for the Japanese version of that same experience right now. I'm going to live in a big city first and that's that.

To give you an idea of where my head is at right now, in terms of Tokyo life, I'm pretty dead set on living around the Yoyogi station area if I don't get a place with my Japanese buddy. I can get a newer apartment just a few minutes walk from the station for about 90,000 a month. I would then get a commuter pass that doesn't just go from Yoyogi station to my school in Shinokubo, but one that starts from maybe even as far as Shinagawa and extends to Ikebukuro along the Yamanote line. I learned that a lot of commuter pass costs are up front and that extending the pass for more stations in either direction often adds relatively little to the price. Believe it or not the Ikebukuro to Shinagawa commuter pass is only 6000 yen per month and yet covers 14 Yamanote line stations (including Shibuya, Shinjuku, Ebisu, Harajuku, etc). Since Yoyogi is kind of in the center of the line between Shinagawa and Ikebukuro that would cover a huge portion of my monthly travels both for entertainment and school purposes.

So that's the kind of lifestyle I'm looking to experience. I want to be able to walk out of my front door and be in a happening place in just minutes. If I'm going to live in one of these major cities I want to live IN it. A 40 minute train commute just to save a few hundred dollars a month isn't worth it to me.

So what I'm asking is does Osaka have something that will come close to that same type of Tokyo living environment....just cheaper?

Seriously, if you have the money to afford a 90 000 yen rent, whether you go to Tokyo or Osaka matters nothing at all. The difference in price isn't even close to that price-class. I paid 56k yen rent and I thought it was ridiculously expensive. If you can afford a 90k apartment, I would say cash is the least of your worries.

I live in Okazaki. Have done for years. It's hardly the outback, it's a small city with everything you need and want, except the big city experience. If you're 20, cashed up, and don't suffer from fear of small places, Tokyo would be fun. If I had to choose between Tokyo and Osake, definately Osaka. People might talk to you there. Tokyoites are to cool to speak to tourists.

Sorry, Osaka, not Osake. Fruedian slip.

Mennon Wrote:I live in Okazaki. Have done for years. It's hardly the outback, it's a small city with everything you need and want, except the big city experience. If you're 20, cashed up, and don't suffer from fear of small places, Tokyo would be fun. If I had to choose between Tokyo and Osake, definately Osaka. People might talk to you there. Tokyoites are to cool to speak to tourists.

I have the exact opposite reaction. Osaka people never talk much to me but Tokyo people don't stop.

Tobberoth Wrote:Seriously, if you have the money to afford a 90 000 yen rent, whether you go to Tokyo or Osaka matters nothing at all. The difference in price isn't even close to that price-class. I paid 56k yen rent and I thought it was ridiculously expensive. If you can afford a 90k apartment, I would say cash is the least of your worries.

Is 90 000 yen a month really THAT much for rent where you come from? I mean yes it is expensive for the size but honestly even where I come from, which is cheap as hell in the states, an apartment in an area of town you would actually feel comfortable living in will run you in the 55 000+ yen neighborhood fairly easy. And with that you would still have to own/maintain a car, live in a much dangerous area (even a good area in my city would be considered incredibly dangerous in Japan), and be forced to drive to go and do just about anything.