http://news.yahoo.com/s/ygreen/20100511/...oudfactory

Quote:The cloud whitening technology seems to be the most readily deployable. Basically a fleet of ships equipped with screens & vacuums pump up millions of gallons of ocean water and using high-powered water canons introduce the water some 3000 feet in the air, where clouds are formed. The added moisture content would increase the thickness of the water vapor, making the clouds whiter and thus more reflective.

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Wikipedia article about "cloud whitening:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_refle...dification

Didn't read the whole thing, but at first I figured this would be about "cloud computing"

But it's really a cloud factory. hah

Now it´s sure that Gates is one of "them".

In my opinion this science is complete BS.

Blue Sky of Death?

jettyke Wrote:Now it´s sure that Gates is one of "them".

In my opinion this science is complete BS.

It's fairly elementary stuff - clouds are white, they reflect light (and therefore heat), preventing some insolation. We've been cloud seeding for ages by using silver iodide - the Russians use it every time there's a public event in Moscow to clear all the clouds and produce a nice day. The Chinese also used it to remove pollution from the sky above Beijing before the olympics. Creating (and thickening) them over the oceans is a logical step to counteract climate change.

hotter days cause more vaporization, thus more white cloud coverage. As the water condenses again and becomes ready to rain the clouds turn grey.

What If this phenomenon of Gates donating his money is meant as an encouragement for other people to donate too? and then that fund will get much money and it can use t as it likes.

There are VERY many articles, videos, and opinions in other forms which disagree with Al Gore´s "Global warming."

I cannot judge whether it´s true, but here in Estonia, there is no change whatsoever. If anything, the weather has gotten colder, especially this winter( very damn cold). And then also you can´t expect such a big planet as earth to stay unchanged forever...it´s been changin for millenias.

These white clouds may reflect sunlight, but the ozone layer, co2 or whatever... is still mainly above clouds, so wouldn´t it "keep sunlight and warmth from returnin to cosmos" as they say?

And Imagine how many clouds you would have to produce, to even make a LITTLE change?

And If the assumed change comes, then there is a big possibility that other stuff comes with it, and you can pray that only good things will come with that.

Anyway, I didn´t write to argue with anyone, it´s merely my opinion. I am open to other perspectives.

jettyke Wrote:I cannot judge whether it´s true, but here in Estonia, there is no change whatsoever. If anything, the weather has gotten colder, especially this winter( very damn cold).

"Empirical measurements of the Earth's heat content show the planet is still accumulating heat and global warming is still happening. Surface temperatures can show short-term cooling when heat is exchanged between the atmosphere and the ocean, which has a much greater heat capacity than the air."
http://skepticalscience.com/global-cooling.htm

"Since the mid 1970s, global temperatures have been warming at around 0.2 degrees Celsius per decade. However, weather imposes its own dramatic ups and downs over the long term trend. We expect to see record cold temperatures even during global warming. Nevertheless over the last decade, daily record high temperatures occurred twice as often as record lows. This tendency towards hotter days is expected to increase as global warming continues into the 21st Century."
http://skepticalscience.com/global-warmi...eather.htm

"The cold snap is due to a strong phase of the Arctic Oscillation. This is causing cool temperatures at mid-latitudes (eg - Eurasia and North America) and warming in polar regions (Greenland and Arctic Ocean). The warm and cool regions roughly balance each other out with little impact on global temperature."
http://skepticalscience.com/December-200...spells.htm

jettyke Wrote:And then also you can´t expect such a big planet as earth to stay unchanged forever...it´s been changin for millenias.

"Natural climate change in the past proves that climate is sensitive to an energy imbalance. If the planet accumulates heat, global temperatures will go up. Currently, CO2 is imposing an energy imbalance due to the enhanced greenhouse effect. Past climate change actually provides evidence for our climate's sensitivity to CO2."
http://skepticalscience.com/climate-chan...period.htm

You can feel free to click the citations on those pages

Quote:but... how come it makes them whiter? wouldn't it make them greyer if theres more water in them?

If less light is getting through then from below (where we are) they would indeed look grey. However, from space they would be very white.

What I would like to know is why anyone is taking this seriously when there are so many larger but easier to solve problems. Maybe feeding the poor is too cliche for the Gates Foundation? Ok, maybe that's not fair of me to say... to Gates' credit, he is one of the few influential people raising awareness of certain issues and possible solutions. I just think that maybe he needs to shorten the leash that holds him to reality. (If I was really a cynic I'd probably point out that throwing money at technological development is like sowing a seed that Microsoft can reap, but I really, really want to believe that Bill is a good person, and it's my right as an American to claim to be true that which I believe.)

Gates is funding much more than this research:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_foundation

Rice Research
Between November 2007 and October 2010, the gates foundation will offer $19.9 million to the International Rice Research Institution. The aid is intended to support the increasing demand the world has placed on rice. The Bill and Melinda Gates foundation claims “To keep up with worldwide demand, the production of rice will have to increase by about 70 percent in the next two decades.”[29] Yielding higher grade crops will ensure local farmers get the best return out of their crop annually and be able to offer greater quantities.

The IRRI maintains that with the improvement of rice yields, not only will people reap the benefits of a more nutritious crop, advances in crop research will help sustain local economies. Rice that cost less to produce and yield greater amount makes the final product less expensive for consumers.[30]

shadysaint Wrote:

Quote:but... how come it makes them whiter? wouldn't it make them greyer if theres more water in them?

If less light is getting through then from below (where we are) they would indeed look grey. However, from space they would be very white.

What I would like to know is why anyone is taking this seriously when there are so many larger but easier to solve problems. Maybe feeding the poor is too cliche for the Gates Foundation? Ok, maybe that's not fair of me to say... to Gates' credit, he is one of the few influential people raising awareness of certain issues and possible solutions. I just think that maybe he needs to shorten the leash that holds him to reality. (If I was really a cynic I'd probably point out that throwing money at technological development is like sowing a seed that Microsoft can reap, but I really, really want to believe that Bill is a good person, and it's my right as an American to claim to be true that which I believe.)

I totally agree with you that it´s very abnormal that while very big part of earth´s population is in hunger, there is one person, whose wallet could feed the whole planet for at least a year. (I´m talking about millions or even billions of people here).
In the mean time there is a wide variety of species becoming extinct and many rich forests being cut down (amazon for example).

It´s quite common for government and media to make some very small problems seem like they are BIG issues of great danger, while concurrently there are MUCH bigger problems(WHICH NEED NO PROOF!), no matter how you look at them.
Usually it´s done to mask the real dangers and the real problems, why? I just don´t know.

The swineflu, birdflu(?) and AIDS are such small matters compared to hunger, deaths from tobacco and alcohol.

If you would compare the numbers of people who suffer from hunger, die from tobacco and alcohol every year to the deaths shown in media...
The difference in numbers is very big.

let´s imagine that you give the first set a percentage and the second one too.

And let´s imagine that we have a newscast which divides their (negative) airtime according to the percentages of deaths and serious problems...

...Then I´m afraid we would see 90% of the time starving and ailing people each time we turn news on.

I just have to say, democracy must have been a joke from the very beginning.

And now they are inventing new, "serious" global problems, which they, lets be honest, don´t even know themselves much about.

jettyke Wrote:It´s quite common for government and media to make some very small problems seem like they are BIG issues of great danger, while concurrently there are MUCH bigger problems(WHICH NEED NO PROOF!), no matter how you look at them.
Usually it´s done to mask the real dangers and the real problems, why? I just don´t know.

Can you prove to me that these problems require no proof?

Bill Gates is not a part of the government. He is an individual who may do whatever he wants with his excess money.

Instead of complaining about how he's trying to solve one problem but not another, ask yourselves why you don't do more about those problems.

You may talk about how you don't have his kind of money, but guess what? If lots of average people such as yourselves pitched in money to help, you could make a big difference. You don't have to wait for ONE PERSON with a gigantic wallet.

Eikyu Wrote:

jettyke Wrote:It´s quite common for government and media to make some very small problems seem like they are BIG issues of great danger, while concurrently there are MUCH bigger problems(WHICH NEED NO PROOF!), no matter how you look at them.
Usually it´s done to mask the real dangers and the real problems, why? I just don´t know.

Can you prove to me that these problems require no proof?

The starving people of the 3rd world, and in some regions it´s hard to get water. (many countries in africa) .
The people around who work a lot, feeling as if they were robots.
Nowadays it´s quite easy to get depressed.

If you don´t know anything about these, you probably live in a comparably happy neighbourhood.
In my opinion these issues are more important than the stuff like a meteors that can destroy the earth, or the end of the world in 2012(rumours in media)...these thing seem to me more like probabilities and presumptions, according to a small . If one of these would happen, we probably couldn´t do anything, so I, personally, wouldn´t waste time worrying about them. I would rather worry about where I am going to get my next meal.

Presumptions and probabilities need more proof, because they are presumptions that other people made, and you can´t be so sure about what you can´t see for yourself.(how the heck could you see the whole global warming with your own eyes... a lot of travelling, a lot of knowledge of past, present and future, and science? End of the world in 2012( how the heck did it even become so widespread so fast)? You need to come up with some ideas to show people that you are right, and sometimes you lack proof and you can make it up, so can Al Gore and Bill Gates).

Smackle Wrote:Bill Gates is not a part of the government. He is an individual who may do whatever he wants with his excess money.

Instead of complaining about how he's trying to solve one problem but not another, ask yourselves why you don't do more about those problems.

You may talk about how you don't have his kind of money, but guess what? If lots of average people such as yourselves pitched in money to help, you could make a big difference. You don't have to wait for ONE PERSON with a gigantic wallet.

No matter what he´s just a Bill Gates, a one person. In my opinion he´s equal to every other human being, and the fact that he has so much more right to earth´s resources is just strange.

I guess it would be wise to just keep my mouth shut about these kind of problems because topics like these can keep on going forever, never reaching a decent conclusion.

ugh, I´m tired

IceCream Wrote:somehow, i get the impression that the end of the world hypotheses are just slightly less scientific than climate change.

Sure, of course, but you still get the information, don´t you? Human beings don´t only think about science, maybe someone doesn´t care so much about scientific proof.

If you hear a lot about one phenomenon, then you might spend a lot of time thinking about it. And eventually it might bring you to care more about that phenomenon.

jettyke Wrote:No matter what he´s just a Bill Gates, a one person. In my opinion he´s equal to every other human being, and the fact that he has so much more right to earth´s resources is just strange.

Sorry no he is not equal. He is one of the richest people on earth and his "right" to more of earth's resources isn't strange, it is the only possible outcome. Equality doesn't exist, will never exist, and should never exist.

jettyke Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:somehow, i get the impression that the end of the world hypotheses are just slightly less scientific than climate change.

Sure, of course, but you still get the information, don´t you? Human beings don´t only think about science, maybe someone doesn´t care so much about scientific proof.

If you hear a lot about one phenomenon, then you might spend a lot of time thinking about it. And eventually it might bring you to care more about that phenomenon.

Just because people spend a long time thinking about things until they become important to them, doesn't mean they are important in reality. Or perhaps that's what you're trying to say?

Deaths from alcohol and tobacco are deaths that people choose for themselves by drinking and smoking. They have the information at their fingertips and they make the decision to kill themselves. Society offers (at least in the developed world) more than enough support for people in this situation.

World famine is a problem which plenty of people are working to solve, and it's part of the problem of climate change. Part of the reason people are focussing on climate change is because if we have a bad climate outcome famine will be much worse, world water resource problems will be far worse, and poverty will rise hugely as the world population spikes. Research into climate mitigation contributes to solving the problems of poverty.

Bill Gates earned his position as one of the richest men in the world. He made the right decisions at the right times and his combination of intelligence, hard work and pure chance have put him where he is today. I really don't think it's strange. It could happen to plenty of people.

Suggesting that Bill Gates is trying to make money by investing 300,000 in a company is ludicrous. He has more money than anyone can ever use. He's just trying to spend his money in a way which will make him feel good about his life when he comes to the end of it. He's also extremely intelligent. He knows, because he knows how to assess the evidence available to him, that climate change is a real threat. All the other problems you are talking about are part of the same problem, he realises that, so he spreads his funding around various options to increase the chances of finding a useful piece of the solution. Suggesting he has an evil motive is totally ridiculous.

IceCream Wrote:but... how come it makes them whiter? wouldn't it make them greyer if theres more water in them?

and why do hotter days have whiter clouds? ：Ｄ

It makes the clouds whiter by bringing them into one place. At the moment, there is loads of water vapour floating around above the oceans, but most of it is invisible because it hasn't condensed. This technology works by creating tiny surfaces in the air on which water droplets can condense. The white appearance of clouds is caused by light reflecting from small water droplets. Gray clouds are seen when larger droplets reflect some light but absorb some too because they have less surface area (to reflect) per unit of volume (to absorb). Cloud whitening creates many small particles so they look white. Eventually the clouds will turn grey and rain, but this is better than having no visible cloud.

On hotter days, water particles which condense from vapour to little droplets in clouds are constantly re-evaporating (becoming vapour again), which is why you usually only see white clouds instead of grey ones on hot days. You might ask why clouds form at all on hot days given that the water can evaporate from the heat? The reason is that water vapour molecules adhere to dust particles in the atmosphere, including natural dust and pollution, causing the cloud droplets even in hot weather.

IceCream Wrote:i think the point that was raised about the fact that the clouds are still in the atmosphere is interesting... do they really reflect the light & heat all the way back to space?

Yes, clouds really do reflect light all the way back into space. Heat is just energy - photons (units of light) carry energy in their vibrations. When a photon comes from the sun all the way to the earth and bounces off a water droplet in a cloud, it just keeps going at light speed into space until it hits something else and is either absorbed (transferring its energy to the thing it hits, making it hotter) or reflected again.

Bear in mind it's not just visible light - everything from ultra violet, visible light, infra red all the way to radio waves and microwaves are reflected by a reflected surface - they are all light of different wavelengths. Clouds really do stop a lot of heat from being transferred to the earth's surface. In fact, the Earth's albedo is 40%, meaning 40% of the light which reaches the atmosphere is reflected, much of it by clouds.

Ice Cream Climatology

Bill Gates is a person hero of mine. Many people hate him and disagree with him on many points, but he truly is an example of the potential of what capitalism, and charity unmotivated by religious ambition, can be.