Thora Wrote:IceCream - I feel for you. I hadn't heard of people having >24 hr cycles.

It's quite common actually. About 20% of people are evening people. It's the people at your office that either look really tired all the time, or drink loads of coffee.

aphasiac Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:i guess it's time to try wildweathels suggestions of total darkness after dark (maybe sunglasses, i dunno what i'd do without my computer. i already have all lights off at least 3 hours before i want to go to sleep) and a heavy duty real light box after i wake up (i already have a super-bright lightbulb on). melatonin tablets. cut out caffeine entirely except for mornings(what will i drink!). maybe a sleep-phase alarm clock. still don't think i can handle his suggestion of going to bed at 6.30pm though... Maybe try cutting my average sleep from 8.42 to 7.87 and see if i reduce my day from 25.73 hours to 24.04 hours, or whether i just get tireder til i sleep it off. get rid of sleeping tablets, see if that helps.

This is a good suggestion, no computer for 30-60mins before bedtime!

Also try cutting out caffine all together; it won't get affect your mornings, it'll mess up your sleep patterns for the next 12 hours, maybe more. Caffine is the no.1 cause of insomnial; If you really like tea that much, just drink decaff.

Sleeping tablets could help you get into a rhythm, but you should take them longer than 5 days straight..

Instead of sleeping pills, buy some good organic chamomille tea. It relax your muscles and puts you right to sleep better than anything else out there.

This is what I use:
http://www.amazon.com/Two-Leaves-Bud-Cha...B000FH2Y0C

You can find single boxes ($6) at some local supermarkets and health stores.

An even better option is if you can find organic chamomile tea leaves at a street fair.
Much cheaper and the effect will be much stronger.

IMHO, instead of increased sleeping time, you should focus on make your study time more efficient. If you find that you have too much to study, just remember that less is more..... :-)

Icecream, if you have time to flood all of us with walls of texts, you could have the decency to join the IRC channel

IceCream Wrote:... go snowboarding...

aha... maybe now I'll have a chance at forgiveness for abandoning you in that passive grammar thread. I was snowboarding at Whistler that week. Powder, spring temperatures and sun. Couldn't drag myself to a computer...

Olympics next month is going to be crazy here. Hmm I wonder if you could get some kind of job with a ski resort in Japan? Combination English and snowboard lessons? Mountain guide for tourists? Or work as a liftie and practice Japanese for a season? (be bad if you fell asleep at the controls though) :-) I went to a few hills - they were better than I had expected.

edit: speaking of Winterland - I wonder if the OP got his question answered?

IceCream Wrote:and cool, i'l try no looking at the computer before bed, but i kinda like falling asleep to japanese drama on really low. The sound of people talking that i don't understand kinda stops my head chatting to myself more. It ends by itself so it doesn't disturb sleeping later on (i also think the listening while you sleep thing has 0 effect on your japanese). But, i'l start turning the screen and just listening!

Definately gonna get this all sorted!!! 皆さんありがとうございます　：D

I've had problems in the past with insomnia, but putting on j-doramas before I go to bed puts me out like a light. I've always been the sort of person who couldn't sleep without the TV on, though. But I don't think necessarily having a j-drama on before going to sleep is bad, if it's something that's been incorporated into your sleeping regimen.

I think what you and I experience in terms of sleep is very similar. It's almost impossible for me to keep my schedule constant, even with regular exercise and trying to go to bed at the same time every day. I'll start the month waking up at 5:00PM and staying up until 8:00AM, and by the end of the month I'm going to bed at 2:00AM and waking up at 11:00AM. Repeat this cycle endlessly.

For example, I ideally like to wake up around 11:00AM, because any time before that and I just feel incredibly tired. Each night I'll go to bed around the same time (2:00AM-2:30AM), but then some days I'll just be unable to get out of bed before 1:00PM. So then I end up trying to fall asleep at 2:30AM, and I can't. So the next day I end up sleeping even later. And so on. If I try to make myself wake up with an alarm clock, I'll just feel horrible throughout the entire day, and then when it's time to go to bed, I can't fall asleep.

This is a really obvious question, but have you ever tried a sleep clinic? I intend to go to one... eventually... but they'll analyze your sleep patterns and perhaps be able to figure out what's going wrong.



I have the sort of lifestyle in which I could easily do polyphasic sleep, but I would probably end up committing suicide by the end of the week. I'm the sort of person that, if I wake up after having less than 7-8 hours of restful sleep, I will not be able to fall back asleep until it gets to the point that I am so exhausted that I pass out once my head hits the pillow. So it would just be constant, daily sleep deprivation.

mirina Wrote:For example, I ideally like to wake up around 11:00AM, because any time before that and I just feel incredibly tired. Each night I'll go to bed around the same time (2:00AM-2:30AM), but then some days I'll just be unable to get out of bed before 1:00PM. So then I end up trying to fall asleep at 2:30AM, and I can't. So the next day I end up sleeping even later. And so on. If I try to make myself wake up with an alarm clock, I'll just feel horrible throughout the entire day, and then when it's time to go to bed, I can't fall asleep.

This is exactly what I'm talking about for people with a >24h cycle. 20% of people are like this. Nothing to be done about it, really. Except lay off the caffeine and try to do something relaxing before bedtime.
More reading about it here: http://www.b-society.org/

28 hours a day would be great.

Horrible sleeper here as well, I've even perfected the I'm-so-tired-in-the-morning-I-am-able-to-stop-all-alarms-while-still-asleep routine.

Especially now in the winter it's horrible, though I'm able to combat it with light therapy in the morning and afternoon, taking melatonine in the evening at a set time, and making my computerscreens less bright in the evening as well.

I also have one of those lightalarms, but it's so easy to just turn around and ignore the light, or use the snoozefunction for two hours in a row, even more so since they threw my favorite radiostations out the air, so it's more tempting to press snooze to get rid of the annoying stations I wake up with now.

But it's just such hard work trying to maintain a regular sleep rhythm, I know I should get to bed in time, but I just love the evenings and nights, don't want to go to bed right at the time I'm getting all energetic and lifelike.
And getting up in the morning, brrr, it's so cold nowadays, and my bed is so nice and warm, and nice and warm, and warm, did I already say it was warm? Do not want to leave my bed ever.

I do totally love my light therapy lamp, since it works many times better than caffeine does, when I started using it last year against my SAD, I quit drinking coffee within a week, even though I used to drink it almost continuously in large amounts in a very strong brew.
Just need to get out of my current borderline winterdepression lameness and start using it some more once again. So I'm awake earlier in the day, more energized during the day, don't stumble down when dawn hits, and worn out enough when bedtime hits, so I get to sleep at a decent time.

What also helps is entraining your body with food and exercise. I haven't been able to break that barrier yet though, absolutely hate eating and food in the morning, and can hardly wrap my head around the notion of getting out of bed, let alone going out for a morning run.

Thora Wrote:I was snowboarding at Whistler that week. Powder, spring temperatures and sun. Couldn't drag myself to a computer...

Olympics next month is going to be crazy here. Hmm I wonder if you could get some kind of job with a ski resort in Japan? Combination English and snowboard lessons? Mountain guide for tourists? Or work as a liftie and practice Japanese for a season? (be bad if you fell asleep at the controls though) :-) I went to a few hills - they were better than I had expected.

Actually I saw an ad on Gaijinpot back in 2007 for working at a ski resort in Nagano. It was more like a work trade though. They gave you room and board, ski lift tickets and 50,000円 per month. It was for 6 months and when the season was over, they also had a resort in Okinawa with a similar deal if you just wanted to play all the time. They didn't sponsor visas though.

Pfft. Melatonin's all you need. Miracle pill.

Koos83 Wrote:

mirina Wrote:For example, I ideally like to wake up around 11:00AM, because any time before that and I just feel incredibly tired. Each night I'll go to bed around the same time (2:00AM-2:30AM), but then some days I'll just be unable to get out of bed before 1:00PM. So then I end up trying to fall asleep at 2:30AM, and I can't. So the next day I end up sleeping even later. And so on. If I try to make myself wake up with an alarm clock, I'll just feel horrible throughout the entire day, and then when it's time to go to bed, I can't fall asleep.

This is exactly what I'm talking about for people with a >24h cycle. 20% of people are like this. Nothing to be done about it, really. Except lay off the caffeine and try to do something relaxing before bedtime.
More reading about it here: http://www.b-society.org/

Just 20%? When I studied Psychology, it said that all people are like this. If you put a group of people in a room under ground where they can't see if it's night or day and let them live as they want, they adopt 26-28 hour cycles after a while without realizing it.

Well it seems I'm digging up a thread from a few months ago.

I was considering starting this and keeping track of things through my SRS to see if it actually does have an effect on memory/learning.
I can definitely understand how and why it should, but there are so many people who claim that it works fine for them, and I'm curious.

Realistically, I probably won't make it past the adaptation phase, but I am curious to see the results of my Anki results after someone gets acclimated to it.

I spend much time on the computer, maybe half of my free time. And my eyesight has suffered much from it.

I have an idea that maybe if I slept 4 + 4 hours, then my eyes would rest more often and thus they wouldn´t get so much strain from lcd?

So far it seems, like it´s good...

One way I found of not straining your eyes too much is to have a block of paper, and constantly shift your eyes between the screen and the paper as you write the kanji or the sentence on paper after seeing it on the screen .Of course, for this to work perfectly, it is important that you start your daily study with fresh eyes, and not after 2 hours of browsing the net. This has helped me get 1 or 2 extra hours of study. However, you still need to do breaks. Even ten minutes of going to bed, covering your eyes with a dark cloth, leave it there and just breathe deeply for a while will go a long way to help. Having the Flux software installed in my computer also helps to soften the strain on the eyes.
Another thing that helps is to hugely increase the size of the text on the screen, use the magnify function on Firefox and Chrome to greatly increase the text size, or set up anki to put out huge fonts as soon as you start your study. This will also reduce the burden on the sight.

But do not fool yourself into thinking you can just keep going for hours and hours. Even if your eyes do not get tired,　I guarantee you will experience burnout if you take it too far. The more you push yourself, the greater the burnout will be. I speak from direct experience. Measure your limits carefully and keep a natural balance. One difference between memorizing and doing a job is that in your daily job, most of the time you are repeating things that you have already mastered and have it all well memorized. It is not possible to spend 8 hours a day with only a lunch break, constantly forcing the brain to memorize new facts and not expect this to take a toll a few days later.

IceCream Wrote:If anyone's tried the sleep phase alarm clock, let us know if it works, cos it sounds pretty good!

I have the sleep cycle alarm clock. It works really well, wakes you up feeling fresh as long as you estimate your natural waking to within half an hour (the app allows you to set an alarm, then wakes you at the most 'awake' stage within 30 minutes. If there's no 'awake' stage within 30 minutes it wakes you up anyway. If you make sure you set your alarm for a multiple of 3 hours after going to sleep, this will generally make the app work fine. After a few weeks you'll know exactly how long you sleep anyway. It's really quite nice to see your sleep graphed every day.

I used to follow a very similar sleeping pattern to you IceCream, largely due to being hopelessly addicted to the internet (IRC, hacking forums, etc). I conquered it and forced myself to adjust my sleeping pattern. I've actually done this about 5 times in my life, and it always takes the same amount of time to adjust (2 weeks) and I always use the same sort of methods. There are four basic areas you can work on:

Sensory input (especially light):
This has already been mentioned, but our pineal gland is stimulated by light intensity and hue (actually by a combination). The pineal gland produces, among other things, melatonin, which regulates the circadian rhythm. If you are on the computer screen all day, turn the brightness of your monitor down around 4 hours before you want to go to sleep. You should also have low lighting in the room around this time, using incandescent bulbs (with a warm hue). You should set your screen to have a warmth of around 3400-3500K (Kelvin) too, as this will reduce eye strain and basically simulate a long sunset. On Mac there's an application to do this for you... http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/ There may be something similar for windows/linux.

Having total darkness when you want to go to sleep is really important, and silence can also be crucial (depending on your aural sensitivity). Make sure any LEDs in your bedroom are covered at night (blu-tack is good for this) or, better, wear a sleep mask. Ear plugs can help if you live in a noisy house. I live next to a train line and use them every night.

Food and drink (and smoking): (this might seem draconian, but it's really important)
Don't drink caffeinated drinks within 6 hours of going to bed. You also shouldn't eat heavy meals within four hours of sleeping. Try to avoid processed carbohydrates (white bread, non-wholemeal biscuits etc.) in the same time frame. No fruit juice either (acid reflux is a major cause of insomnia). Same with yoghurt. Warm milk is by far the best thing to drink because it contains plenty of melatonin. Chamomile tea (as already suggested) is excellent. Don't smoke within a few hours of bed, as this raises your blood pressure and keeps your brain in an active frequency for a long time (lying awake thinking about things). Stay hydrated throughout the day. For women between 45-60 kilos you should be aiming to drink at least 1.5 litres throughout the day, best f sipped gradually. IF (and only if) you are keeping yourself fully hydrated all day (you can tell because your urine will always be pale or clear) then a really excellent way to make yourself sleep is to put a crystal of sea salt on your tongue right before closing your eyes. Let the crystal dissolve on your tongue, don't touch it to the palate (roof of your mouth). It should be sea salt (like Maldon sea salt) because there are a much greater variety of ions in natural sea salt than in rock or table salt. The salt helps you sleep by flooding the cortex with electrolytes, which (for some reason I haven't found out yet) rapidly sends you to the theta/delta brainwave border (where you sleep). It doesn't work if you're dehydrated - electrolytes need a medium in which to conduct.

If you are getting tired in the afternoons it may be dietary (in fact it's very likely). Dehydration is the most common cause - drink throughout the day. Again you should avoid processed carbs like white flour and white pasta, and stay away from heavily glutinous foods (like sticky rice). Ever tried vegetarianism? At least lowering your red meat intake, if not total vegetarianism, will make your digestive process much less energy demanding. The best strategy to avoid digestive torpor is to eat little and often.

Health:
If you're suffering some underlying illness, there's a good chance it will increase your metabolism and make you drowsy much of the time. Keep a temperature diary for a week to check the metabolism (if a pathogen is raising your metabolism you'll have a slightly high temperature, not necessarily a fever, over time).

Fitness is really important for sleep. It's pretty obvious - if you don't do anything to make your body tired, it won't want to sleep when you want it to. Do daily exercise. Sex counts. This also increases general wellbeing and happiness. Depression also messes with sleep cycles, so if you're unhappy in the long term you might find it harder to sleep. Stress does the same - cortisol (the stress hormone) inhibits melatonin receptors, making you less able to feel tired. Exercise helps with the cortisol problem too.

Routine:
Your brain is essentially an advanced pattern recognition and processing engine. Your body is a big, complex pattern. Keep routines. The time going to sleep isn't as important as the waking time - set your alarm for the same time each day and get up no matter what. You will gradually (2 weeks) start to go to bed around the same time each day because you'll suddenly get really tired 6-8 hours before your waking up time. To find the right waking time start early, then adjust later if necessary. If you start late, you'll be pushing your bedtime later each day and you get essentially the same cycle you currently have developing again.

It's entirely possible to retrain your circadian rhythm, it just takes 2 weeks and some self control.

I have switched to polyphasic awake to increase sleeping time.

IceCream it depends what kind of tea. Black tea (normal english breakfast tea) like PG tips is strongly caffeinated, so you shouldn't drink it any time near bed anyway. If you drink a lot of tea throughout the day and evening this could contribute heavily to your sleep problems.

Most herbal teas aren't caffeinated but some are diuretic (they increase water loss in urine). These really don't help that much with hydration. Plain tap water is ideal, or if it must be tea then rooibos (redbush) tea is non-diuretic and naturally caffeine free. Green rooibos is also very pleasant and has the same benefits, as does honeybush tea.

To confuse the issue, chamomile tea is a very strong diuretic. None of this matters as long as you drink plenty of water throughout the day. Adult female at least 1.5 litres, more if you exercise. Adult male, over 2 litres a day is adequate.

If you want to try the salt thing and haven't fully hydrated during the day you could try a large glass of water 1/2 hour before bed, then have a few gulps before you lay down and take the salt.