A fight against sleep is like a fight against yourself, it's ultimately self-defeating. You can borrow time when you need more for a short time period but you'll have to pay it back later.

6 hours is plenty of sleep. It feels almost like sleeping in for me if I goto sleep and wakeup at the same time everyday. I've been really busy with work lately so I've been operating on 4 hours per sleep for the past week though.

That said, if I have no plans and am feeling lazy I can easily sleep for 16 hours or more.

tom3injapan Wrote:Tobberoth, out of curiosity, is your girlfriend Japanese? My wife and many of my friends' Japanese girlfriends also have the infinite sleep cycle if left undisturbed.

Nah, she's Korean though.

liosama Wrote:Is it just me or did all of you guys get into this sleep-thinking mode after hearing that Aijin sleeps only 3 hours each day.

I didn't...

I looked through all of my schedules, and the longest I would have to go without sleeping would be a single stretch of 6 hours.

It´s really just a musing, I havn't been getting enough sleep lately, honestly, and this actually started, for me, as a plan to get MORE sleep. Haha.

I think an aspect of it all that is missing from the scientific research is the enjoyment of waking life. My memories of high school when I was getting 10-12 hours of sleep were of dreading the next day and the social pain I knew would ensue from it.
Now, I only sleep maybe six hours a day because I can't wait for the next day to arrive and its potential for exciting possibilities.

hereticalrants Wrote:

liosama Wrote:Is it just me or did all of you guys get into this sleep-thinking mode after hearing that Aijin sleeps only 3 hours each day.

I didn't...

I looked through all of my schedules, and the longest I would have to go without sleeping would be a single stretch of 6 hours.

It´s really just a musing, I havn't been getting enough sleep lately, honestly, and this actually started, for me, as a plan to get MORE sleep. Haha.

Well it just seemed too coincidental for me. Aijin talks about her 3 hours sleep then almost at the same time I see a thread on sleep theory for increasing study time.

Everyone goes through those thoughts every once in a while especially if you watch Seinfeld. But regardless of what research says, it's far from practical in society today.

That being said, I always have trouble sleeping too, I tend to think too much when I'm in bed, so if I hop in at 2:00 AM or something, I look at my watch then all of a sudden it's 4:35 AM. I try to supplement this time with reading but if I read I end up going to sleep at 6am-7am or so (having food just before then since I'd be starving). So then my whole day is screwy and I wake up at 1pm feeling drowsy as hell.

IceCream Wrote:Does anyone know a way of viewing computer usage over a long period of time, and making some kind of graph out of it?

You can find several great time-tracking tools in Lifehacker:

Five Best Time-Tracking Applications.

From those options, I think Manic Time could be what you're looking for. According to Lifehacker:

Quote:One area of resistance many people have to using time tracking software is a fear that they'll waste too much time actually plugging information into the system. Manic Time alleviates that fear by actively tracking what you're doing on your computer to make tagging and analyzing your daily work flow simple . Your day is represented by three time lines: Activity (either on the computer or off), Applications (which were open), and Tags (your personal annotations to your work flow). Mousing over any of the three time lines gives you additional data about that moment on the time line and you can always pull up the statistics window to see your work patterns over time . Check out their video tutorials to see Manic Time in action.

Polyphasic takes too long to adjust to, requires too much upkeep, and is very impractical with most people's schedule. Why bother with it when you can just restrict how long you sleep normally? Sleeping 6 hours is easy to adjust to and maintain, and it won't diminish your cognitive functions.

I think it's much more practical to just sleep 6 hours per day than try a ridiculous schedule like polyphasic sleeping. I mean, if you sleep 4 hours doing polyphasic sleeping, as opposed to 6 hours normally...2 hours really isn't that much. And if time truly is that big of an issue, you can make up that 2 hours through maximizing efficiency in the time you do have.

nest0r Wrote:The research you seem to be referring to is on p. 202 of the .pdf I linked early in the thread. He says that w/ those tests, while one showed prolonged decrements until after a 'free' day for sleeping several weeks in, and the other test showed two weeks of decrements followed by improvement, neither the decrements nor the improvements relative to the baseline were statistically significant. Keep in mind this was also one person in the '70s or whatever [correction: late '80s/early '90s]. Based on the other stuff in the book, the breakdown of how the circadian rhythm and SWS/REM are affected, and current research, I still get the impression that polyphasic is promising if you're forced to a reduced sleep schedule, but monophasic (possibly with occasional power naps ;p) is better overall.

yeah that's what i was referring to (although it's on pg 208 in my pdf viewer, or pg 194 as counted by the book). i read the book many years ago so my recollection was a little hazy. you're right, he says there is no statistically significant change (although there is a slight increase). i guess this is still good news since the subject was sleeping just 3 hrs/day! more studies need to be done, that's for sure.

icecream: your natural schedule appears to be longer than a 24 hour cycle. that's pretty common actually. i have the same problem and it's quite annoying. i still haven't found a solution...

radical_tyro Wrote:icecream: your natural schedule appears to be longer than a 24 hour cycle. that's pretty common actually. i have the same problem and it's quite annoying. i still haven't found a solution...

Try the 28 hour day. http://xkcd.com/320/

radical_tyro Wrote:icecream: your natural schedule appears to be longer than a 24 hour cycle. that's pretty common actually. i have the same problem and it's quite annoying. i still haven't found a solution...

I have the same problem. It's called being an evening person. In Denmark they have a party that is lobbying for schools and businesses to be able to start later and there are already several businesses which take it into account when an employee is like this. Evening people are usually more creative and intelligent, but in school they are often seen as lazy, since they don't really 'get going' until the afternoon/evening.

That said; icecream: I do start work at 9 every day, though it does take me about 1.5 hours to get ready in the morning since it all doesn't go very fast, and no matter how much sleep I get during the week, I still end up sleeping until 12 or 1 on Saturdays. So I set my alarm on Sundays so I don't end up being awake half the night before working again on Monday. During the holidays I end up with the same sleeping schedule as you. So I don't think it will be a problem for you to land a job, just harder. You could try to find a job that will let you start at 10 or so, though they are hard to come by.

Also: if you are still a teenager, ignore everything I've said up there and just look forward to your early 20s, in which your sleeping pattern will even out.

For more reading about the Danish companies: http://archive.octoshape.com/about/jobs/dw.pdf
And the society that organised it all: http://www.b-society.org/

Wish I lived in Denmark...

Oh and about the topic of this thread: is anyone taking into account people's own biological clocks when studying this type of sleep? I see the people here differ greatly in how much sleep they need to feel energetic and revived, wouldn't it be the same with the polyblah sleep (can't be arsed to look at what it's called)?

To increase study time? Sleep doesn't only have biological benefits, it has psychological benefits as well. If you don't sleep a lot, you will not "rest". You will feel stressed and chances are you will still feel there aren't enough hours in the day.

You probably don't need 8 hours of sleep, but surely you need 8 hours of rest, for your mental health.

IceCream Wrote:The effects of this kind of sleep deprivation are not something i ever want to repeat... Seriously, no fun at all.

Don't ever have a child. Sleep becomes like one of those 3 month "Around the World" cruises we dream about taking one day but know will never happen.

IceCream Wrote:Does anyone have any idea what i can do about this? i love sleep, but this is annoying. i need to be able to hold down a job at some point! would some kind of polyphasic sleep be the best option?

I'm honestly finding it quite hard to read this graph; your sleep patterns are so erratic!

Obvious question, but what happens if you try to force your self to go to sleep at the same time every day (e.g. midnight), and then force yourself to stay awake the rest of the time? Have you tried sleeping with a routine for a week or more??

From the graph you seem to be settling into a groove from Nov 17-23rd, so it definitely seems possible..sleeping tablets might help get you into the pattern, avoidance of caffine goes without saying.

IceCream Wrote:lol, i have no idea how people have kids, they are totally exhausting to be around for just a few hours even.

No way! When I become a man I'm going to have babies with all kinds of women

Im going to make little asian babies, little black babies, little arab babies, little latino babies, SHO KIUTTT

IceCream Wrote:Thanks sebastian!! cool, well, i wanted to figure out my sleeping pattern from my computer use... here's what i came up with: (yellow is times asleep)

Are the colored non-yellow parts your computer usage? :O
If so, that's probably part of your problem.

I'm a bit of an insomniac myself, and my wife suggested halting mentally and visually stimulating activities (computer, video games, studying) an hour before bedtime. This seemed to help quite a bit.

liosama Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:lol, i have no idea how people have kids, they are totally exhausting to be around for just a few hours even.

No way! When I become a man I'm going to have babies with all kinds of women

Im going to make little asian babies, little black babies, little arab babies, little latino babies, SHO KIUTTT

LOL!!!
Were you Genghis Khan in a former life?
I saw a genetics documentary a few years back that gave evidence one out of every five people who lives in a region once conquered by Genghis Khan is a descendant of him. The guy seemed to invade countries just for the exotic babes! Sounds like a better reason than for access to cheap oil

hahaha

A few of my afghan friends definitely hav some Mongol in them - really pretty

I just want to say a couple of quick points:
- People's sleep requirements can vary quite a bit. Also it is usual for people in their teens to need more sleep. So don't assume that because you can get by on 5 hrs a night everyone can ! I think 7-9 hrs is normal for an adult.
- Most people need to synch themselves with society, fancy sleep schedules may work but are probably impractical.
- There is actually quite a lot of research on sleep, morningness / eveningness sometimes referred to as larks vs nightowls.
- Icecream what do you actually do for a living? Are you a student? That sleep pattern is crazy. I think you should really try going to bed and waking up at the same time each day. The advice of avoiding computer use, video games etc right before going to bed was good. Try just sitting in a chair and reading quietly for half an hour or so. Then when you start to feel sleepy go to bed. If you can't control your sleep patterns you may have some sort of sleep disorder. eg non-24 hour sleep wake syndrome (Hypernychthemeral syndrome). Typical cues the body uses to reset its rhythms are the cycle of light and darkness. Try exposing yourself to bright light in the mornings by walking around outside for example and avoiding it in the evenings (by wearing sunglasses for example).

IceCream - I feel for you. I hadn't heard of people having >24 hr cycles.

Are you getting exercise? I have this image of you glued to your computer all day. Exercise is so good for sleep and your brain and your...everything.

Exercise helps with insomnia caused by irregular sleep and gives you more energy when you are tired. (I wouldn't have survived my crazy work hours without it.) But try to commit to a regular schedule if you can. Maybe experiment with different schedules for a month at a time. (Are there people who specialize in sleeping problems? Consider asking for a referral - sleeping pills aren't a long term solution.)

edit: >24 hr

.

IceCream Wrote:i guess it's time to try wildweathels suggestions of total darkness after dark (maybe sunglasses, i dunno what i'd do without my computer. i already have all lights off at least 3 hours before i want to go to sleep) and a heavy duty real light box after i wake up (i already have a super-bright lightbulb on). melatonin tablets. cut out caffeine entirely except for mornings(what will i drink!). maybe a sleep-phase alarm clock. still don't think i can handle his suggestion of going to bed at 6.30pm though... Maybe try cutting my average sleep from 8.42 to 7.87 and see if i reduce my day from 25.73 hours to 24.04 hours, or whether i just get tireder til i sleep it off. get rid of sleeping tablets, see if that helps.

This is a good suggestion, no computer for 30-60mins before bedtime!

Also try cutting out caffine all together; it won't get affect your mornings, it'll mess up your sleep patterns for the next 12 hours, maybe more. Caffine is the no.1 cause of insomnial; If you really like tea that much, just drink decaff.

Sleeping tablets could help you get into a rhythm, but you should take them longer than 5 days straight..

IceCream Wrote:radical tyro, have you tried any of these things? apparently lots of people don't ever try to sort it out, because everywhere i looked says its only common in blind people. but, my dad has it too, for sure. he's never held down a job for long...

yeah i've tried a number of things. but, partly because i don't have to be at work in the mornings, i sleep through them regardless of when i went to sleep. and i'll sleep through anything, so my attempts at using multiple loud alarms on the other side of my room hasn't worked either. the past few days i've been experimenting with a 4500 lux light box. dunno if it's bright enough though (it sure looks bright...). have you had any success with your light box?