I'm making this post because I've recently decided to change up my approach to how I use my SRS for vocabulary acquisition. My "old" method involved trudging through 2001KO at about a 20 vocabulary words per day average (which is about 6-7 Kanji) and reviewing in a fairly strict manner most of the time. My daily reviews hovered around the 200 card mark and frankly I started to question the amount of work involved per the speed of the vocabulary acquistion.

The reason I started to question this is when I realized how infinitely more important hearing a word in REAL context OUTSIDE of my SRS card mattered in terms of me internalizing it. I would be chatting with my Japanese buddy (well not much chatting on my part lol) and he would sometimes explain a word to me briefly that I would later come across in my KO studies. These words almostly instantly "stuck", even with very limited/no reviewing, and almost no mnemonic aid. It also worked in reverse for words I had just learned via SRS and then heard/read for the first time (or at least recognized for the first time) soon after in a "native" setting.

So the conclusion I came to is that maybe powering through tons of vocabulary in my SRS at a less "strict" passing pace would be a much smarter move. The idea is to just get as much in my head as fast as possible and then spend all of the extra time using native material to really sort out the meanings and readings. The faster I can acquire words the faster I can recognize these words in the wild.

So for the past week I've been adding 150 new vocabulary words per day. That's about 8 times my original workload of new material yet it is only taking about twice as much time. The reason is because I've stopped worrying about "perfecting" it in the SRS.

If I'm close on the reading I pass it (while noting the correct reading and repeating it a few times aloud). If I can't really remember the meaning but know the reading and as soon as I hit the answer button it's like "Oh yeah!" I pass it. I basically only fail the card if I draw a blank once seeing the answer.

My plan is basically as follows: Do 150 cards per day at an "easy" review level for 2 weeks straight. That's 2100 new vocabulary words in 14 days. After the two weeks is over take a break from adding new cards and spend a few weeks "vacationing" in native material. I'll naturally keep up my reviews while continuing to pass cards at a less strict rate. This makes reviewing much less mentally taxing and faster while dropping down the daily reviews pretty darn fast. After 2 weeks or so of "vacationing" go on another 2 week vocabulary binge. Repeat until you feel like stopping.

The goal would be to get a very large smattering of vocabulary in a very short period of time so you could spend more time with fully contextual native material. The easy SRS reviews will continue to give your memory a little bump, while the extra time spent on native material (vs time spent on laborous reviews) will act as the cement.

Have you considered that it's possible you are using SRS wrong? Most people who recommend sentence mining recommend that you do the mining yourself, from materials that interest you. That doesn't mean you scour your books for sentences, it means that as you find something new, you enter it into your SRS.

Having said that... If you were where I am, I'd recommend the fast approach and more input from entertainment. You appear to be quite a bit beyond me, though, so I'm wondering why you aren't doing that anyhow... So there may be something I'm missing.

In short: Mindless memorization is for newbies that -can't- learn things from context yet. Once you have done enough of that to have actual conversations and watch/read things without translations, you should be doing those things most of your time.

This is exactly what I did. Works wonders

that's nice. I usually some days, take breaks from my SRS sentences collecting,kanji,etc. And immerse myself in native material. Actually i already do it daily, as much as possible. At least when i'm not at school,work,etc.

wccrawford Wrote:Have you considered that it's possible you are using SRS wrong? Most people who recommend sentence mining recommend that you do the mining yourself, from materials that interest you. That doesn't mean you scour your books for sentences, it means that as you find something new, you enter it into your SRS.

Simple answer is because I'm lazy when it comes to entering my own stuff. When I sit down to enjoy something I don't want to have to remember to go enter in a sentence for everything I don't know. Instead, I'd rather already have a good chance of "knowing" it, at least slightly, and just have to simply do a quick lookup to refresh my memory.

I actually agree with you though. If you can do sentence mining by simply working your way through stuff you want to read then that is great. I simply like frequency lists, but what I'm realizing is that doing frequency lists in a slow manner is a waste of time. They are just a means to the end and not the end itself. I'm now seeing that you might want to get through them as fast as possible.

I guess I'm kind of looking at it like Heisig for vocabulary. RTK1 is made to work through fairly fast so you can get on to the "real" stuff. If you are going to take years to work through RTK1 you could have just done in the "old" way and rote learned all of the readings too.

Since most people want a large vocabulary I'm thinking why not go ahead and knock the edge off that as fast as possible too? Blast your way through 10,000 or so words and then you can dive into just about any native material with at least a mild degree of familiarity. You then use this mild familiarity as a base to really nail down the various contextual meanings of the words within what ever native material you enjoy.

I hope that makes sense lol.

Are you still working from sentences? Or do your cards only hold single words now?

Its an interesting idea, but I'm still not confident enough to go into native material yet (1500 cards from KO2001 so far).

It's best to get it out the way as quick as possible. I wouldn't recommend passing the card if you're just "close" cos that may breed a bad habit or two but definitely not to spend too much time on each card.

After KO2001 I was faced with k so what next? Cos I tried sentences and I dunno just wasn't that big of a fan so I just went with a raw vocab deck and it's faster than ever for adding, reviewing and actual learning cos I get all my sentences from real world material, they go in one ear and out the other and it's great for actual practice.

Next thing i've started doing is when i'm watching something if I come across a sentence that just really clicks with me I enter it into my SRS with English on the front then I have to produce the Japanese sentence and so it's actually helping train production of spoken Japanese which is cool.

I definitely advocate speed when it comes to vocab acquisition.

Nii87 Wrote:Are you still working from sentences? Or do your cards only hold single words now?

Its an interesting idea, but I'm still not confident enough to go into native material yet (1500 cards from KO2001 so far).

Can't believe I didn't mention it in the first post. I'm doing single vocabulary words now instead of sentences (already have about 3,000 sentences).

mezbup Wrote:It's best to get it out the way as quick as possible. I wouldn't recommend passing the card if you're just "close" cos that may breed a bad habit or two but definitely not to spend too much time on each card.

True but what I have in mind is that once I've powered though a huge amount of cards and allowed the daily reviews to settle back down I'll start being picky again.

activeaero Wrote:The reason I started to question this is when I realized how infinitely more important hearing a word in REAL context OUTSIDE of my SRS card mattered in terms of me internalizing it.

This has been working great for me. (input wise at least, I haven't been focusing on my output yet)

Since I’m doing something extremely similar to you I thought I’d share some tips that helped me speed up the process and some alternatives in case that portion of your method becomes too taxing:

-Learning the words in kanji order not added order. For example, if you learned自体 you’d use anki’s search feature to find the other words that contain 自and learn those. Then after you do that you can go through kanji that contain 体, and so on and so forth (this makes it worlds easier to remember the pronunciation(s))

-Keeping keyhole tv on, which keeps me from getting bored during the (sometimes) lengthy reviews. [In general make 2 whatever allows you to keep your sanity during long reviews, keyhole TV was my answer but this could be different for you].

-Also, have material which will allow you to see the progress you’re making. Two examples: For the longest time kingdom hearts was difficult for me but now it’s easy. Similarly I have a Japanese newspaper that I’ll try to read from time to time. Being able to see progress will enable you to have fewer bouts with frustration and thus, get more reviews in.

activeaero Wrote:If I'm close on the reading I pass it (while noting the correct reading and repeating it a few times aloud). If I can't really remember the meaning but know the reading and as soon as I hit the answer button it's like "Oh yeah!" I pass it. I basically only fail the card if I draw a blank once seeing the answer.

alternative: Focus on knowing the meaning(s) until anki says the next review will occur in a month; when that happens get strict about the pronunciation. In the past I tried to learn pronunciation and meaning right away but only got bogged down with reviews. You should still try to remember the pronunciation before the month interval begins however. (Like you said, seeing the words in the wild solidifies the meaning. Japanese dictionaries also help with the details of the meaning(s) )

-This could easily be different for you but I rarely use the 4 rating. If anything it would be used during the first or second review to space out the cards more [if I remember them well enough] but beyond that it’s almost always 1-3.

- Do not ignore the ‘difficult’ cards; instead review them with some easier cards. This way you’re getting outside your comfort zone but not to the point of frustration.

activeaero Wrote:My plan is basically as follows: Do 150 cards per day at an "easy" review level for 2 weeks straight. That's 2100 new vocabulary words in 14 days. After the two weeks is over take a break from adding new cards and spend a few weeks "vacationing" in native material. I'll naturally keep up my reviews while continuing to pass cards at a less strict rate. This makes reviewing much less mentally taxing and faster while dropping down the daily reviews pretty darn fast. After 2 weeks or so of "vacationing" go on another 2 week vocabulary binge. Repeat until you feel like stopping.

Alternative: take breaks (few hours to a few minutes) in-between reviews to enjoy some native materials (and maybe listen to keyhole TV while reviewing so you’re immersing and reviewing at the same time: 一石二鳥).

Lately I’ve slowed down to give some time to gain a deeper understanding of grammar but after 2.8 months here’s where I’m at if you’re curious: 10020 active. (I deleted a good amount of ‘stuffing’ words so it’s not as if a few hundred-thousand of some of them are unnecessary additions)
Correct Answers
復習期間の長いカード: 94.3% (3250 of 3446)
復習期間の短いカード: 90.4% (40523 of 44837)
Very rough idea of where I am: I’m starting on Japanese novels. (犬と私の１０の約束-easy, Harry potter- barely started).
-Famitsu and Excite’s びっくりnews articles tend to be easy, political news is still hard however.
-Still using monolingual dictionaries, Weblio’s my favorite. Kingdom hearts is easy.

Congrats on learning 150 words per/ day, good luck with your method! Hope at least a few of my tips have been some help for you (sorry for the wall of text).

Thanks for the advice Fightswumbrellas. I have a few questions if you don't mind.

1. I know how to search for related Kanji compounds but exactly how do I select them to come up for review before the current order? Are you just suspending the entire deck and then unsuspending the cards that come up in your search?

2. Where did you get your current 10,000 cards from? Once I finish up the entire 2001KO series I'll have around a 6,000 word vocab but I'd honestly like to double that if things keep progressing at the current rate.

1. You guessed right. I suspended the whole deck and unsuspended whichever words I wanted to review.

2. After Kanji odyssey I imported the Core series and Kanji in Context from smart.fm. There’s a JLPT deck on the server which I took jlpt1 words from and imported into my deck. Several more were entered manually. After duplicates + deleting filler words you’ll be left with somewhere around 10,000.

fightswumbrellas, thanks for your tips, they were much appreciated. A few questions if you don't mind. You mentioned that you added anywhere from 50-300 cards a day, yet you say you suspended your decks once imported then unsuspended cards as you went. For some reason or other it's not clear to me what exactly you did. Did you:
1. Import all of those decks, suspending immediately upon import. Then, as you came across vocab 'in the wild' you unsuspended those cards with the same kanji so that you reached anywhere from 50-300 words in any given day?
2. unsuspend several cards (perhaps the next ten cards) and then, based on these cards, unsuspend cards with the same kanji.
3. some other thing that I can't think of

Thanks!

Glad to hear they helped.

I started off with only the KO deck. Then once I was about 2/3rds of the way done I added the core deck. Once I was almost done with the core deck I added the jlpt deck. Kanji in context I only recently added so no, I didn’t import them all at once. However, after each import I suspended all the new cards. I can’t imagine there being any harm in adding them all at once so go for it if you want. I originally wasn’t planning on importing core so that’s why I ended up adding it some time after KO, same goes for the others otherwise I would have added them all at once.

Sorry my fault for poor wording: daily added should have been added/unsuspended. My max added from the wild tends to be around 130 words (normal amount added from the wild is much lower, around 40-70)

The easiest way to explain how I learn words is through an example. I would choose one new word/kanji such as 相 then I would learn words with that kanji in them. After that I would chose one word to repeat the process lets say: 相対. So then I would learn the words with 対. Rinse and repeat.

Whether I started the process with a word from the wild or a random word from the list depended on the circumstances. Since I’m a college student a good amount of the day went towards train rides/classes so I often chose a word at random from the imported words and started the process. On break it’s mostly been: find a word from native material to start the process. Then when I learned all/most (kanji like 日have so many words that it’s unnecessary to learn them all at once) of the words with that kanji I could either look for another word from native material or the imported words.
Sorry if anything is a bit unclear, insomnia’s been hitting me hard lately so if you need more explanation let me know.

To bring this back to the main topic: I agree that vocabulary words are best learned quickly so you can get into native materials.

When in doubt, always err on the side of leniency. The SRS is a tool to help you learn faster not a self-punishment device.

The quick and dirty guide to how I use leech control:

If you're studying pre-collected sentences with Anki you must use leech control. Multiple passes at 70% will get you higher early understanding of native media than one at 100%.

- Grade strictly.

- Set the leech threshold low.

I found that a threshold of 6 turned into a suspend rate of 5% over the Core2000. I'm now continuing into the Core6000 with it at 4, though it's too early to say what the results will be.

If you finish a pass and want to continue with that collection, reset the leeches and continue.

Just wanted to revive this thread as I have been pondering this question recently.

Has anybody had experience with powering through Core as quickly as possible, without too much regard to being exact? I do agree with sentiment that Core has the same purpose as Heisig before it - to get familiarity with words so that you can start on native materials, which, after all, is true Japanese learning.

My only concern is learning bad habits. Has anybody had actual experience with this method (as opposed to speculation)? Do you regret it, or did it help you become fluent?

I've tried to power level. The main benefit was learning words really quickly, albeit a bit painfully. Anyway, take the following advice with a grain of salt, use it as you see fit. (Taken from notes, combined random bits of information)

"A pseudo-acquisition phase might emphasize learning /reviewing 7-13 words a day and listening to the language. This period may last for 1-2 years, and the learner would accumulate around four to six thousand words (learned effortfully) while simultaneously increasing familiarity with learned words and with the Japanese language itself. When one has passed this period of familiarity (also learning basic sentence structure, intonation, etc) he/she might learn more than 13 words a day, or focus on understanding and experiencing the language more thoroughly as through etymological or syntactical study, focus on a field of interest, watching movies, etc. Imo this method is fine for anyone learning their first L2 or self-studying their first L3, et cetera. For reference I've read here that adults are said to learn one word per day, in English, and I've learnt in class that toddlers learn 7-13 words per day."

Core is a good base because it has good audio and focuses on important vocabulary.
If you're willing take a longer period of time to study core, I think it would be worth it.

Simply because there are other important aspects too (basic sentence structure, intonation, culture, etc.), and because it takes a long time to really flesh out and understand a language.

Thirteen seems to be a moderate amount, and is easily manageable. Anything above 15 takes a noticeable, albeit small, amount of time and effort, particularly during the first year or two.

time => media, reading
effort => fun, love, a good system, routine, regimen

We also improve more quickly with:
identification with a certain culture / group of people (third link)
what we enjoy (hobbies, friends, books),

Good articles related to this topic,
http://japaneseruleof7.com/why-you-shoul...-japanese/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_acquisition
http://darkjapanese.wordpress.com/2012/0...e-vampire/

sounds like this article
http://www.yearlyglot.com/dont-use-flashcards/

hazwanium Wrote:sounds like this article
http://www.yearlyglot.com/dont-use-flashcards/

I think this guy misunderstood the role of SRS. It's here not to learn a word, but to help you don't forget it. Talking about my experience, I've a good knowledge of programmation, I've done things like directx, tcp-ip, low level (drivers, kernel programming etc..) and obviously those are things you cannot expect to learn from 0 with Anki. You cannot put assembly instructions in Anki without first understand them, and expect to learn how to program in assembly. But if you study something like a programming language or math or whatever, you know if you don't refresh your previous knowledge, you're going to lose it. Only God knows how many times I've forgotten math formulas. Obviously if you learned it in the past is only a matter of review your books and notes to bring back what you're having an hard time to remember. But it takes time and it's inefficient. While with SRS you're going to see only what you have to see in order not to forget it. If it's something you remember very well, you press easy and then easy again ecc.. and viceversa. It's way more efficient than reviewing all your notes periodically.

I do think it's the same thing with languages. You learn a word in a book, or anime etc.. not in Anki. Then nobody know when you're going to see this word again. So you put it in Anki and Anki manage to propose this word again, depending on your retention of it. In my own opinion SRS is only about retention, it's more about maintaining memory of something, refreshing what you've already learned.

In the comments the author of that article suggest to use alternate methods to learn words, like "read that word in context" instead of using SRS to learn it. But if you want to learn japanese it's expected you'll see those words in context, because you're going to consume japanese material. SRS is only a support and if you use it for what it's supposed to be used, it does his job.

It's like if I say "don't put math formulas and math rules in Anki, instead you must do exercises so you'll learn those formulas and rules in context". You don't say??? It's obvious if you're learning something like math or japanese it is becouse you're already going to use it. If you want to learn japanese exclusively from Anki and you don't read etc.. then why are you studying japanese in the first instance?

Sorry for the long post, hope I've explained myself decently

I finished Core2k in 3 months, and I am now 30% done with Core6k after another month. I don't know if that counts as powering through, but it has certainly made a huge difference in my speaking and listening ability.

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