Javizy Wrote:I wasn't suggesting that 'everyone' is the same, I was drawing attention to the idea of a multicultural society in Japan being far from a reality. Again, the idea of a parallel here is crazy.

I can't quite tell whether you're objecting to either

a) A foreigner using a Japanese name in Japan
b) Someone making up a name in order to try to fit in

(or both, or something else entirely)

I would guess that it couldn't be (a), because then in order to be consistent, you'd have to suggest that people like my cousin, Japanese-Americans with Japanese first and last names, to actually change their names to something more "Western" if they were to move to Japan, in order to make it clear that they're foreign (unless you're just objecting to the use of kanji names, rather than, say, Japanese names used by foreigners but written in katakana). If I'm correct in my guess and you're more objecting to people making up names whole cloth, I'm curious as to what you'd think of my situation, someone who's had a Japanese name since birth but is not fully Japanese, using said name in Japan (in katakana, not Kanji). One the one hand I feel like I have the "right" to do so, in a way, since after all it is my name. But on the other hand I would feel strange about it, I think probably because despite my somewhat Asian features I would clearly be a foreigner in Japan, even before you heard my accent. In any case, like I said I don't plan to do that, so it's just hypothetical. Or maybe I've misread your argument completely...

IceCream Wrote:i use the word retarded all the time.
given that:
a.) i haven't ever, and wouldn't ever use the word "retard" or anything similar to refer to anyone with a disability
and
b.) the fact i use it only in a situation where that person very obviously has no mental disability shows that i acknowledge it only as a funny word / insult
which makes it ok, i think. The only reason someone should get angry about it is if they see themselves as a "retard". Which shouldn't really happen anymore, because nobody who has a disability would call themselves retarded, right?
It's usually more the original meaning of the word that's being used... i.e. slow (in the head). This is why the same doesn't hold true of something like the word "nigger", even if the above two conditions held true, because it has no inherant insulting meaning other than the racist one. In order to consider "nigger" to be a funny insult, you already have to kind of be racist to begin with... otherwise, it's just a bit meaningless. i think, anyway.

I would argue that 'retarded' gets its negativity, however unwitting/unwilling the individual using it is, from being an insulting word for a 'class' of people (however protean), and your individual usage feeds back into this larger, contemporary, very real context of discrimination in events and in language that reflects those events and inflicts emotional suffering. I am against some sort of top-down ban of words, but only because I think that makes the labels rigid rather than understanding them as symbols. Rather, I suggest being literate in those symbols and what they represent and perpetuate when you spread their negative roots around. At best you're an unwitting tool of discrimination, perhaps self-conscious and thinking, without proof, that using 'retarded' to mean 'stupid' for everyone somehow declaws its specialized usage (and too bad for others in the meantime), at worse selfish and lazy and prone to insensitively using the words because you feel like it and have some 'it's just words, don't be PC, that's gay, ha ha' mentality. Again, rhetorical 'you' here. ;p

Blank Wrote:

Javizy Wrote:I wasn't suggesting that 'everyone' is the same, I was drawing attention to the idea of a multicultural society in Japan being far from a reality. Again, the idea of a parallel here is crazy.

I can't quite tell whether you're objecting to either

a) A foreigner using a Japanese name in Japan
b) Someone making up a name in order to try to fit in

(or both, or something else entirely)

I would guess that it couldn't be (a), because then in order to be consistent, you'd have to suggest that people like my cousin, Japanese-Americans with Japanese first and last names, to actually change their names to something more "Western" if they were to move to Japan, in order to make it clear that they're foreign (unless you're just objecting to the use of kanji names, rather than, say, Japanese names used by foreigners but written in katakana). If I'm correct in my guess and you're more objecting to people making up names whole cloth, I'm curious as to what you'd think of my situation, someone who's had a Japanese name since birth but is not fully Japanese, using said name in Japan (in katakana, not Kanji). One the one hand I feel like I have the "right" to do so, in a way, since after all it is my name. But on the other hand I would feel strange about it, I think probably because despite my somewhat Asian features I would clearly be a foreigner in Japan, even before you heard my accent. In any case, like I said I don't plan to do that, so it's just hypothetical. Or maybe I've misread your argument completely...

If somebody wants to use a Japanese name, and can get away with it without sounding silly, then why not? I'm not suggesting that it's never going to happen. Is the average American or British guy going to achieve it? My argument is no, and I'd need to see some sort of quantitative evidence to believe otherwise.

That's really all I'm saying... the only reason the culture stuff came up is because of people trying to equate nicknames in English with nicknames in Japanese. I really don't think it's that simple.

----

Edit: typo

Quote:Xiangfeng does not sound okay in English no matter how open-minded you want to be.

Neither does Wilma or Rebekah, but people don't go out of there way to change it, do they?

Quote:Test it out for yourself next time you introduce yourself to a Japanese person, and you'll see how much sense there is in it in the expression on their face.

This is the best evidence you have to support a wholly subject perspective that you seem to be passing off as fact? I've done this before and the only thing I got was shock from knowledge of names and kanji. I've even helped show them their names when translated. Like the majority of all human interaction presentation is the most important element. If you present the name as if it is normal to you, they respond as so (even it's made up).

Javizy Wrote:I'm rejecting the idea that there is some sort of parallel when they clearly isn't

I've had several Chinese friends who have told me there "Chinese" name and it didn't sound the least bit weird. Can I say this for every Chinese name, no? But I couldn't say it for every "English" name either. Clearly you only see what you want to see.

Quote:ジェームズ, on the other hand, sounds perfectly fine in Japanese.

What about ウィリアムズ, テぃウコバニ, スアチャー, or マーゴリーズ. Also, can you, personally, not being a Japanese person, say what sounds perfectly fine in Japanese?

Quote:But more to the point, should such a French person need to change their name, why would it automatically be to a Japanese one?

Should vs Could. Could they, yes? Should they... that's up to the individual.

Quote:Since we're talking about Britains/Americans throwing away perfectly acceptable katakana names, it's practically besides the point anyway.

This topic was about choosing a nickname, not throwing away anything. I Chinese person named Sai who introduces himself as Robert hasn't thrown anything away. Much the same, a person who introduces himself and "takeshi" (the tolken name, for some reason), has not thrown away anything.

Quote:I was drawing attention to the idea of a multicultural society in Japan being far from a reality.

Really.... present Japan, or Japan 50 years ago?

Thankfully the 外人 Pride (MMA) fighters have made significant inroads, re: having Japanese nicknames. A moment of silence for our fallen comrades.

One problem in trying to make a Japanese nickname is that nobody will ever tell you if it sounds silly because they'll be too polite.

I will tell you that in the conversations I've had with Japanese native speakers on this issue, the best response I've ever gotten is "it doesn't bother me that much" but I would say that over half of the people I asked thought it seemed stupid when foreigners tried to write their name in kanji for serious purposes.

kazelee Wrote:

Quote:Xiangfeng does not sound okay in English no matter how open-minded you want to be.

Neither does Wilma or Rebekah, but people don't go out of there way to change it, do they?

Quote:Test it out for yourself next time you introduce yourself to a Japanese person, and you'll see how much sense there is in it in the expression on their face.

This is the best evidence you have to support a wholly subject perspective that you seem to be passing off as fact? I've done this before and the only thing I got was shock from knowledge of names and kanji. I've even helped show them their names when translated. Like the majority of all human interact presentation is the most important element. If you present the name as if it is normal to you, they respond as so (even it's made up).

Javizy Wrote:I'm rejecting the idea that there is some sort of parallel when they clearly isn't

I've had several Chinese friends who have told me there "Chinese" name and it didn't sound the least bit weird. Can I say this for every Chinese name, no? But I couldn't say it for every "English" name either. Clearly you only see what you want to see.

Quote:ジェームズ, on the other hand, sounds perfectly fine in Japanese.

What about ウィリアムズ, テぃウコバニ, スアチャー, or マーゴリーズ. Also, can you, personally, not being a Japanese person, say what sounds perfectly fine in Japanese?

Quote:But more to the point, should such a French person need to change their name, why would it automatically be to a Japanese one?

Should vs Could. Could they, yes? Should they... that's up to the individual.

Quote:Since we're talking about Britains/Americans throwing away perfectly acceptable katakana names, it's practically besides the point anyway.

This topic was about choosing a nickname, not throwing away anything. I Chinese person named Sai who introduces himself as Robert hasn't thrown anything away. Much the same, a person who introduces himself and "takeshi" (the tolken name, for some reason), has not thrown away anything.

Quote:I was drawing attention to the idea of a multicultural society in Japan being far from a reality.

Really.... present Japan, or Japan 50 years ago?

You make some more interesting points than your previous post. You have to agree that the statistics, at least, are for the silliness. As far as I'm aware, foreigners make up less than 2% of the Japanese populace, and how many of those do you think have Japanese nicknames?

Even though I'm used to meeting foreigners with blatantly made up names, I can't help occasionally thinking "oh, you're Tommy. You look like a Tommy...", even if it's only an initial reaction. When you think that Japanese people aren't used to this sort of thing, the reaction is likely to be much stronger, and in less social situations where you can't start explaining it in the way you mentioned, I imagine it would be quite awkward.

If you've managed to choose one that actually suits you, I suppose that might help. There tend to be a lot of foreigners with names like Stanley and Darcy, which makes me wonder how carefully they chose theirs...

If I had a Japanese name, it would be 大車太食 (pronounced: Feet Punchbeef, because rare kanji readings in names is totally sweet). I'd wear an American flag bandana and fire off "you da man" gestures to everyone whom made eye contact.

On the subject of thread hijack and offensive words, I'll simply quote my ol' buddy Lenny:

Lenny Bruce Wrote:[...] Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness.

The unedited quote is required in order to get the full effect, but I'd rather not be the proud owner of "the post with the most racial slurs on RevTK" Suffice to say, I think political correctness of any kind is pretty gaytarded.

Burritolingus Wrote:If I had a Japanese name, it would be 大車太食 (pronounced: Feet Punchbeef, because rare kanji readings in names is totally sweet). I'd wear an American flag bandana and fire off "you da man" gestures to everyone whom made eye contact.

On the subject of thread hijack and offensive words, I'll simply quote my ol' buddy Lenny:

Lenny Bruce Wrote:[...] Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness.

The unedited quote is required in order to get the full effect, but I'd rather not be the proud owner of "the post with the most racial slurs on RevTK" Suffice to say, I think political correctness of any kind is pretty gaytarded.

As I said, I'm against suppression of words. Some words have illusory power born of actual discrimination, as they reflect that discrimination. Their negativity stems from it, however indirect. Taking that associated, negative resonance and applying it to other areas that one considers negative, in a contemporary context where it still has its original meaning with very real discrimination backing it up, this perpetuates those associations and inflexible generalizations. In this context, very few people who use the word 'retarded' or 'gay' to mean 'stupid' and 'bad' are unaware of the meanings they stem from and continue to feed into when they're not used in a particular, explicitly isolated or satirical way. And even if 'for a while', until someone 'enlightens' them, they truly are unwitting, it doesn't change the fact that other people *are* aware and/or affected, and it doesn't excuse continued usage. Once you know, you're making the choice whether or not to negotiate meanings, knowing that it has a collective meaning that can be influenced by individual usage. If you want to deprive these words of power and maintain an anti-PC mindset, I'd argue the best way to do this is to actively try to be aware of your language, rather than lazy and childish, with the aforementioned particular ways incorporated. Compromise and awareness is key, as I emphasized before. It should be taken as read, hence my use of the word 'compromise' and my previous comments, but I'll add this goes both ways, and if you say 'that's gay' to mean 'that's bad' in front of a gay person or 'sup nigga' to a black person, I'd hope they won't punch you in the mouth, unless of course they were particularly subject to discrimination growing up, in which case they get to punch you and then you can apologize to one another. ;p

Since I wouldn't even be able to recognize my own name in Japanese if someone were calling out to me and my name is pretty much impossible to pronounce in Korean, I see no harm in adopting a Japanese/Korean name. I wouldn't change my last name though.

But I'm not "Western", since I'm South Asian, so does that extempt me from the "holier than thou" posts? What if I had those Tamil names that are like 100 characters? (I don't, but speaking hypothetically...)