Aijin Wrote:Nobody makes fun of 小泉八雲 for his choice of name.

He lived in a different era, married into a rich Japanese woman's family (instead of his wife marrying into his family), and naturalized as a Japanese citizen too.. Non-Asian foreigners taking kanji names now (without naturalizing) just seems silly. You can't use them anyways since they aren't your legal name in your home country.

I intend to use my katakana name forever, even if I naturalize. If I marry a Japanese woman I'd consider taking her last name instead of the reverse though. If I kanjified my name by meaning it would look ridiculous anyways (道建者 神之様). Too bad there isn't some kanji pronounced すけ that means -like, else I could be Shinnosuke.

Siibillam Wrote:I was pondering this the other day. If I go to live in Japan, would it make sense to adopt a Japanese nickname at all? It's quite common the other way around, but is it done at all over there - Westerners adopting Eastern names, even just as a nickname to simplify introductions or something? My first name, Basil, goes into バジル, with a possible J sound instead of Z in the middle which converts it weirdly into Bajiru. My last name isn't so bad however, and I'd keep that anyway.

Any thoughts?

nthing the opinion that your name is cool as it is.

The only reason I think a person with a name of Western origin might change it to something more suitable is if they have a name that sounds completely ridiculous when pronounced in Japanese. Like Vivian. You're either "Bibian" ビビアン or "Uiuian" ヴィヴィアン. Awful.

shirokuro Wrote:

Javizy Wrote:It's not politically correct, I guess. [...]

No, it's not politically correct, but it's also much worse than that. Even if it seems like it's harmless or just an accepted slang usage, it's actually contemptuous and very hurtful to a group of people who have to face enough prejudice as it is. So please don't call things or people "retarded" as an insult.

I think this is somewhat unfair, simply because language evolves in meaning throughout the centuries and many words we use today to indicate something stupid or bad are in fact, technically, "offensive".

I'm sure you do not get upset or offended when someone is referred to as a "cretin", even though the word originally referred to mentally and physically handicapped people. "Idiot" and "moron" also used to be terms for mentally handicapped people, which over time evolved to simply mean "stupid" or "dumb". "Lame", as well, refers to people who are physically handicapped. The phrase "[He/She] is 'special'" also has reference to people who are mentally handicapped.

So, unless you stop using these words yourself, and rail upon people the moment they make use of these words similarly to refer to something negative, I think it's hypocritical to shake your finger at people using the word "retarded". In a few hundreds years, it will likely become a regular part of the English vocabulary, much in the same way as "idiot" and "moron".

You can't really blame people for wanting to use exotic-sounding foreign words. It's the government's job to keep it under control.

..no it's not. It would be a shame if Japanese descended into an English pidgin language, but it's not the government's job to control speech.

Luckily they don't have to worry, because it's not possible for a language to become a pidgin. Japanese will survive the huge influx of Western loans just as it survived the huge influx of Chinese loans.

Japan 2100年　"Hey 兄さん, aujourhui は そうaburrido じゃなかった、no?

Jarvik7 Wrote:. Non-Asian foreigners taking kanji names now (without naturalizing) just seems silly. You can't use them anyways since they aren't your legal name in your home country.

OP Wrote:would it make sense to adopt a Japanese nickname?

Javizy Wrote:When you think that two of those tens of thousands make up more words than the average person's vocabulary, you have to wonder what direction the language is going to take. Will they get over the "Engrish is cool" phase, or will more and more of those 100,000 make their way into everyday use? It'd be interesting to see what percentage of a native speaker's vocabulary is made up of these already, since I would imagine that the overwhelming majority were created after the war, which really isn't such a long time considering the numbers we're speaking about. Completely off-topic, but I do wonder.

Hmm, those are really interesting questions. I'd like to know more about this, too. And yeah, if most of those words were created after the war, that is a really huge change in the language in a very short time. I think this is actually really fascinating from the perspective of historical linguistics, though.

mirina Wrote:I think this is somewhat unfair, simply because language evolves in meaning throughout the centuries and many words we use today to indicate something stupid or bad are in fact, technically, "offensive".

I'm sure you do not get upset or offended when someone is referred to as a "cretin", even though the word originally referred to mentally and physically handicapped people. "Idiot" and "moron" also used to be terms for mentally handicapped people, which over time evolved to simply mean "stupid" or "dumb". "Lame", as well, refers to people who are physically handicapped. The phrase "[He/She] is 'special'" also has reference to people who are mentally handicapped.

I don't think what I wrote was the least bit unfair. You have a point about the meanings (and connotations) of words changing over time, but I believe that this argument really has to be considered on a per-word basis. For example, I'm not at all bothered by the slang usage of the verb suck, despite its offensive origins. As Seth Stevenson writes in his article "Suck It Up," "It's impossible to intelligently maintain that sucks is still offensive. The word is now completely divorced from any past reference it may have made to a certain sex act."

I disapprove of the usage of retarded as a disparaging modifier because it's still widely-understood to be in reference to "retards," which is itself often considered an offensive, not neutral, term. (See "retard" in the Online Etymology Dictionary.) The association still reflects contempt for the developmentally disabled. I do believe that a lot of people who use the word disparagingly mean no offense by it, and do not necessarily view the developmentally disabled with contempt. Asking them not to use it can make them realize how offensive it still is to many people. Therefore, I feel perfectly justified asking someone not to use the word in that way.

Quote:So, unless you stop using these words yourself, and rail upon people the moment they make use of these words similarly to refer to something negative, I think it's hypocritical to shake your finger at people using the word "retarded".

Actually, I'm not being hypocritical, for the reasons that I explained above. Also, I consciously avoid using words and expressions like retarded that I take issue with. I also often ask--not "rail upon"--people I hear or see using them not to use them.

Quote:In a few hundreds years, it will likely become a regular part of the English vocabulary, much in the same way as "idiot" and "moron".

It's irrelevant what it will mean in a few hundred years (and you're speculating, anyways). What matters is what it means now.

Jarvik7 Wrote:It's not the government's job to control speech.

I didn't say it was....

Callings bad things 'gay', calling people you don't like 'fags', calling things you consider scornfully unintelligent or ignorant 'retarded', mocking Japanese people or cultural artefacts by using a deliberate confusion of l/r (Engrish etc., reminds me of films like A Christmas Story or Breakfast at Tiffany's), I personally consider those all to be douchebag moves, though usually I don't like people knowing I think they're a douchebag, that way I can stab them in the back when their guard is down.

Shirokuro's on the mark and I think this also applies to the whole South Park 'fag' issue (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1866), actually, though I must say it's a bit stickier when you're dealing with medical/mental issues, because it's so inchoate and vague, re: diagnoses/labels, in the first place. The same principles apply, once you're made aware of contemporary discrimination. It's up to you to decide whether to continue using it past your adolescence or adolescent behaviour, but be prepared to encounter resistance from those who don't take kindly to you using contemporary labels for them, often markers of denigration, as broad pejoratives, however unwittingly you do so. I'm sure in turn they're often willing to compromise, it just depends on how obvious/insulting you're being, and how subject to discrimination they've been.

I'm speaking generally here, BTW, i.e. a rhetorical 'you'. Just though I'd add something to shirokuro's remarks.

Jarvik7 Wrote:He lived in a different era, married into a rich Japanese woman's family (instead of his wife marrying into his family), and naturalized as a Japanese citizen too.. Non-Asian foreigners taking kanji names now (without naturalizing) just seems silly.

I don't think it's any more silly than an Asian person taking an English name when they move to the States. It's practical for both pronunciation and integrating yourself into the culture. If someone feels a stronger sense of identity and self-expression in a Japanese name, why shouldn't they adopt it?

It's silly if an American starts using a kanji name simply because he thinks it'll make him cool or something, but I am not talking about those scenarios.

Another significant reason is not just that many western names sound completely silly when written in katakana, but that there are plenty that also sound like negative Japanese words when written that way. I've seen tons and tons of French names that when translated into katakana end up as the words for things like sexual acts, violent crimes, etc. If I had one of those names, I would definitely not want to use it. When a Japanese person reads a katakana name they usually don't think of what that word means literally in the Japanese language, but they still notice it, and it definitely exists in that subconscious context.

In situations like those, do you think it's silly to adopt a Japanese name?

Even the Japanese Americans living here in Japan get stuck with ヤマモト.

You have to have the kanji in your passport to be able to officially use a kanji name. Asking your buddies to call you a Japanese nickname sounds silly to me also.

Aijin Wrote:I don't think it's any more silly than an Asian person taking an English name when they move to the States. It's practical for both pronunciation and integrating yourself into the culture.

How is it more practical? Katakana allows your name to fit seamlessly into the language like so many thousands of other English words and names that Japanese are fully accustomed to. If your name happens to be Xiangfeng, then there's no such luxury in English, and you go with Marcie.

I see people every day with roots in China, Pakistan, Nigeria, and a whole host of other countries with typical English names. England is a multicultural society; many of these people are third generation and beyond, so it's only natural for them to have English names - it's part of the culture here. Can you honestly say it's the same in Japan? How many Japanese wouldn't raise their eyebrows at a white guy with an American accent introducing himself 'タケシトイイマス'?

Aijin Wrote:If someone feels a stronger sense of identity and self-expression in a Japanese name, why shouldn't they adopt it?

How does an American get to the point of being able to relate more closely to Japanese culture than his own? Surely you take a large part of your identity from where you were born and raised, your mother tongue, your family... How can somebody who experiences Japan through dramas, books, and the odd vacation possibly relate more closely to it than his own roots. It'd practically seem like some sort of denial to me.

Aijin Wrote:Another significant reason is not just that many western names sound completely silly when written in katakana, but that there are plenty that also sound like negative Japanese words when written that way. I've seen tons and tons of French names that when translated into katakana end up as the words for things like sexual acts, violent crimes, etc. If I had one of those names, I would definitely not want to use it. When a Japanese person reads a katakana name they usually don't think of what that word means literally in the Japanese language, but they still notice it, and it definitely exists in that subconscious context.

Surely just changing the katakana would be a better solution. In and of itself I don't see it as a viable reason for resorting to a Japanese name.

I've been trying to decide a Japanese name for myself lately. I have one from my family, but I don't really like it and it's a good chance for me to give myself a more fitting name. While my official name is an English name, there's times where having a kanji name is really nice (my name won't fit on some forms, etc).

I'm Japanese, so everybody basically expects me to have a Japanese name and wants to use it. However if I was non-Asian, I think I'd want to keep a katakana name so people would know I wasn't Japanese (for example somebody looking at a sheet of paper of a list of people, without knowing you).

There's also an Alias System in Japan, however I don't know too much about it. If anybody has a good link, post it please! I'll probably try to get an alias name when I move over to a permanent resident visa.



I think it's kind of weird when non-Japanese people make up a Japanese last name for themselves. I understand people changing their family name when they get married, but to me it doesn't seem like something you'd just change on a whim. A nickname is completely different than introducing yourself with a "fake" last, and first name.

Javizy Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:I don't think it's any more silly than an Asian person taking an English name when they move to the States. It's practical for both pronunciation and integrating yourself into the culture.

How is it more practical? Katakana allows your name to fit seamlessly into the language like so many thousands of other English words and names that Japanese are fully accustomed to. If your name happens to be Xiangfeng, then there's no such luxury in English, and you go with Marcie.

How's going with Marcie any more/less sensical than going with a Japanese name?

Javizy Wrote:I see people every day with roots in China, Pakistan, Nigeria, and a whole host of other countries with typical English names. England is a multicultural society; many of these people are third generation and beyond, so it's only natural for them to have English names - it's part of the culture here. Can you honestly say it's the same in Japan? How many Japanese wouldn't raise their eyebrows at a white guy with an American accent introducing himself 'タケシトイイマス'?

Because Japanese isn't multicultural... and no third generation foreigners have Japanese names there, right?

Javizy Wrote:How does an American get to the point of being able to relate more closely to Japanese culture than his own? Surely you take a large part of your identity from where you were born and raised, your mother tongue, your family... How can somebody who experiences Japan through dramas, books, and the odd vacation possibly relate more closely to it than his own roots. It'd practically seem like some sort of denial to me.

You just summed up every American who has ever been to Japan. And quite succinctly, I might add.

Javizy Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:Another significant reason is not just that many western names sound completely silly when written in katakana, .....what that word means literally in the Japanese language, but they still notice it, and it definitely exists in that subconscious context.

Surely just changing the katakana would be a better solution. In and of itself I don't see it as a viable reason for resorting to a Japanese name.

So to sum it up: you're for double standards and disregarding legitimate reasons for using an alternate name simply because the location is Japan, where 'everyone' has the same culture, and swear words can be altered by changing a few syllables?

Gotcha!

Also many names, in English, are taken from other languages.

I actually do think it's weird when Chinese people take western names (unless they are naturalized/2nd generation). If someone introduces themselves to me as "Suzy Wang", I usually ask them what their real name is.

Many Chinese people have beautiful names and it's a shame that they hide them with boring western ones like Marcy or Lucy (apologies to any Marcys or Lucys in the crowd).

There's actually a lot of people from Chinese-speaking countries who use a western name almost all the time. Especially Singapore and Hong Kong. I'm getting a little off topic and off geographically, but my point is sometimes they have more attachment to a western name.

If you're a registered alien, you can select an alias (通称名) for your Alien Registration Card and 実印, so we're not talking about legal hurdles but social ones.

There's a reason textbooks stick to names like "Smith" and "Jones" and never have Westerners with names like "McCormick" or "Hernandez" or "Sullivan:" the dialogues would get unwieldy.

Real people aren't always so lucky: if your name doesn't kana-ize to something useable you're setting up for a stupidly-irritating cultural collision.

Imagine our intrepid hero, Mr. James McCormick, who travels to Japan as an ALT. His name becomes 「ミッコルミク・ジェイムズ」which even he has trouble pronouncing. Common courtesy dictates that his coworkers call him ミッコルミクさん. The problem is that his coworkers have to make an extra effort to talk to or about him compared to the Japanese surnames. The constantly tempting easy way out is to either try to ignore him, or to shorten his name.

The fact is, though, that most people are polite (in every culture, really) and so most of his coworkers will put in the extra effort to say ミッコルミクさん, a series of sounds that doesn't flow like Japanese and is a fair bit longer than 青木さん or 佐藤さん.

If Mr. McCormick's coworkers are willing to put in the effort to address him courteously, shouldn't he make the little bit of effort to make it easier for them? Imagine being an extraterrestrial landing in an American office. Just because people should call you Mr. Zrbowxzyzzt doesn't mean you should make them.

How hard is it to be（コミく・ジム）instead? That's what I think the main purpose of a "Japanese Alias" should be: integrating with the language and culture enough that your name doesn't have to cause trouble to anyone.

Kana/kanji is a whole other can of worms that I'm not really qualified to have an opinion about, but if it's obvious how to read it and isn't unusually self-aggrandizing（でも、略で「一番才力」と呼んでいいですよ。）, I can't see a problem with kanji aliases.

McCormick would most like come out as ミコーマク which isn't hard to say at all.

What about keeping you're western name but spelling it in Kanji if you so desire? I didn't pick my names kanjification as it was bestowed unto me by someone with much calligraphy skill and comes out as 慈恵夢須　which all the Japanese people i've showed it to can read fine without me telling them what it is. Though it seems unnaturally long kanji wise for a first name I like it.

As long as no one calls themselves 尺, they'll be OK.......LOL.........

My name is 八、尺八.

I'm not entirely sure where I weigh on the issue -- I'm not one to adopt a new name by any stretch, but my last name terminates with an X. Coupled with the rest of it being generally Japanese-unfriendly, hearing my professors attempt to pronounce it without stumbling (or pausing awkwardly before it) got to be more tiresome than amusing after the first year of it.

After enough cajoling the department more or less came to a consensus to break protocol and just use my first name.

In any real, honest-to-god formal situation overseas I'd be pretty well screwed and I'd feel bad for anybody that had to address me. Aside from that I just push to have people use my first name.

wildweathel Wrote:How hard is it to be（コミく・ジム）instead?

Some people object to コミくさんs, or so I hear...

It was only an example.

wildweathel Wrote:Imagine our intrepid hero, Mr. James McCormick, who travels to Japan as an ALT.

That's funny, I actually knew an ALT when I was there named James McCormick.

kazelee Wrote:So to sum it up: you're for double standards and disregarding legitimate reasons for using an alternate name simply because the location is Japan, where 'everyone' has the same culture, and swear words can be altered by changing a few syllables?

Gotcha!

Also many names, in English, are taken from other languages.

I'm rejecting the idea that there is some sort of parallel when they clearly isn't. Xiangfeng does not sound okay in English no matter how open-minded you want to be. I know nothing about Chinese names or culture. There's no such custom here, and I'm not expected to. There is a lot of sense in going with Marcie.

ジェームズ, on the other hand, sounds perfectly fine in Japanese. A Japanese person could probably name you 20 American actors, and twice as many song titles. They're raised on English, and katakana is infused into the language to the extent that was discussed earlier. It's practically gone beyond the point of being foreign. Calling yourself たけし is strange, again, no matter how open-minded you want to be. You can't just redefine established customs with a post on a forum; the reality is out there. Test it out for yourself next time you introduce yourself to a Japanese person, and you'll see how much sense there is in it in the expression on their face.

I wasn't suggesting that 'everyone' is the same, I was drawing attention to the idea of a multicultural society in Japan being far from a reality. Again, the idea of a parallel here is crazy.

One syllable can completely change the meaning of a word. But more to the point, should such a French person need to change their name, why would it automatically be to a Japanese one? Since we're talking about Britains/Americans throwing away perfectly acceptable katakana names, it's practically besides the point anyway.