Today I received an email from somebody seemingly unfamiliar with the forum, AJATT, everything. He asked the humble question of how to learn Japanese. When I sat down to write the response, however, I realized that it was not a simple question. As I wrote and wrote, I looked back on the way everything used to be around here. When everything was new, and the older members here were newer members. The days when Tobberoth, Mentat, and myself would argue endlessly. When Fabrice still had the highest post count...

But, this is what I wrote:

Thanks, and believe me, I've gotten much longer emails. While you pose a simple question, the answer is somewhat more complex.

First off, the skeleton of my method was based off of alljapaneseallthetime.com (AJATT for short, but don't pay for anything, I'll list the relevant stuff at the end), which is a very good site. Though while most of what he says nowadays is crap, if you can sort through it you can find something good.

You could use Genki, podcasts, and the like, but the most effective method is really the one that makes you spend the most time thinking about and learning Japanese. For everything we disagreed on, we all knew it was a matter of time. I used to rail against textbooks, and in retrospect that was probably because I hadn't found a quality textbook which I could use (still haven't, except maybe Adventures in Japanese).

If only you could have come around about two years ago, that was when everything started up. Our community had discovered Heisig, AJATT, SRS, you name it. It was all brand new and we were exploring, arguing, all sorts of things. But things aren't like they used to be, and the novelty is gone. But, there used to be a method. It was a new method, one which few people believed in (and a lot still don't), but it was our method, and it worked.

You can still kind of see it on the table of contents on the AJATT site if you know what to look for, but the straightforward step-by-step process is gone. It used to be something like this:

0: Belief
1: Tools - SRS, Remembering the Kanji (or better, the Movie Method)
2: Kanji
3: Kana
4: Sentences

0: Was the simple belief that it could be done, and done in a relatively short amount of time. Our example was the founder of AJATT, Khatzumoto. He claimed (and I believe) to have learned Japanese fluently in 18 months, a mere year and a half. Though while I could try my best, his original writings are better. ( read as needed:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/classes-suck
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...es-for-you
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...t-japanese
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...understand
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...-time-when
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...s-language
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ak-english
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...g-japanese
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...apanese-tv
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...n-japanese
)

1 and 2: These were Tools and Kanji. The main tool was an SRS (I am a fan of Anki, which is the best of the free ones, you can find more about what an SRS is at the site and download it - ichi2.net/anki). An SRS is a Spaced Repetition System. The theory is that there are optimal intervals after learning something to review. Believe me when I tell you it's effective. The first thing the new student to Japanese would do, after being motivated and downloading their SRS, would be to learn the kanji. The original method, taught in a book called Remembering the Kanji by James Heisig, was to learn to write a kanji from an English keyword from memory using mnemonics. To this end, it was very effective. Almost everybody else would complain that you have to learn kanji in context, etc. etc., but they're full of shit. Later, I came up with an alternative method, which I used, that allows you to memorize the onyomi reading with the kanji and English keyword (drmoviemethod.blogspot.com), which is much better I think. Trust me when I tell you that you have to know how to write and recognize the kanji or you will get nowhere, and they're necessary to the sentence method. You may also ask what a good pace to learn them is, I did 50 a day for 50 days straight, but that was extreme. Do them at a comfortable pace.

This is solid:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ing-an-srs

3: Kana
Nothing special, learn the kana thoroughly. Remembering the Kana is useful.

4: Sentences

This is the heart of the method. Just read the following AJATT pages:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ore-output
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...tences-why
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...tences-how
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...t-learning
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...nces-where
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...s-to-learn
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...e-textbook
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/on-grammar

You may also wonder, even after reading all of those, "Where do I find sentences?" Well, they're everywhere. The simplest answer is just to find things which you want to read, watch, whatever and harvest them for sentences. Find ones that are at your level. At the beginning, try harvesting textbooks or something for sentences. The point is to pick the low hanging fruit, find fun stuff and pick the easiest to grasp.

Later you should switch to a monolingual dictionary. This means you look up Japanese words in a Japanese dictionary (hopefully electronic). This is awesome. In the beginning you will suck. You'll look up word after word still unsure of anything, but you'll learn. Trust me when I tell you, you'll learn (ask me later for help on how to find one).

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...-your-time
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ctionaries
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...ctionaries

Well, that's about it. You're following in the footsteps of a lot of people. Some got somewhere, and others kinda burned out and stopped. It may be a lot of work, frustrating, and takes forever, but I always look back at the experiences I had with fondness. It was fun and rewarding. You may need help again, at which point you can consult AJATT or me again.

I wonder what the man actually did to achieve what he did in 18 months.

Yea, i wonder what he did during those 18 months. I've been doing the AJATT method for close to 5 months. and 3 months for kanji. He said he only did around 50 new sentences daily but he immeresed himself in japanese almost 24/7(this really isn't possible lol, i mean being in university would require alot of time to study and the use of english, but i can understand the use of SRS for school, it can be really effective.) I must say so far in 5 months i've learned quite alot, and my understanding is pretty good for my level. Being able to understand anime is easy now, read general things is easy. Writing kanji and sentences aren't hard anymore. The only thing i would say my speaking hasn't improve. Only the reading hiragana+katakana speed and the general flow of japanese has improved(lol what am i saying i have improved but not to the level i want it to be). I do think what he did could of achieve fluency, but i think he did more than that to achieve it.

ta12121 Wrote:Yea, i wonder what he did during those 18 months. I've been doing the AJATT method for close to 5 months. and 3 months for kanji. He said he only did around 50 new sentences daily but he immeresed himself in japanese almost 24/7(this really isn't possible lol, i mean being in university would require alot of time to study and the use of english, but i can understand the use of SRS for school, it can be really effective.) I must say so far in 5 months i've learned quite alot, and my understanding is pretty good for my level. Being able to understand anime is easy now, read general things is easy. Writing kanji and sentences aren't hard anymore. The only thing i would say my speaking hasn't improve. Only the reading hiragana+katakana speed and the general flow of japanese has improved(lol what am i saying i have improved but not to the level i want it to be). I do think what he did could of achieve fluency, but i think he did more than that to achieve it.

Speaking from personal experience here, but if I were you, I'd probably not worry about the speaking part yet. A year ago I could write in English in maybe native level, but if you tried to speak with me, you would have heard my weird accent slipping through. Now that I speak more and hearing more English from people in college, it improves my English to the point where no one is even sure whether I'm an international student anymore.

Just my two cents. I'd probably do the same with Japanese myself: get the reading/writing/listening part down, and then move on to speaking. Unfortunately I'm not even close to the level where I would consider strengthening my speaking skills. :/

...If the guy is so unfamiliar with everything, how did he get your email in the first place Alyks?

Nii87 Wrote:...If the guy is so unfamiliar with everything, how did he get your email in the first place Alyks?

知り合いでしょう？

Nii87 Wrote:...If the guy is so unfamiliar with everything, how did he get your email in the first place Alyks?

怪しいな．．．

@OP:
There was never really debate about if AJATT can actually work or not. There was a lot of discussion about khatz and the ajatt site though. Here is a summary of the majority of AJATT debate threads:
1) He brings nothing new to the table other than himself as a role model
2) His Japanese isn't as good as he (and others) thinks it is now, let alone when he finished his 18month regimen years ago
3) (related to 2) He has a, shall we say, unfortunate personality and (English) writing style. His Japanese writing is bad too but that's because he's constantly trying to show off the kanji/grammar/phrases/dialect he knows even if it's not natural to use them.
4) He makes up stuff constantly to argue a point, when the point could easily be argued while staying within reality (ex: everything he ever says about grammar)
5) Reaching a level where you are functional (which seems to be his definition of fluent) isn't even difficult within 18 months as long as you study daily and review/apply (you don't even need to go 24/7). I took about 10 months to go from barely knowing kana to being functional, without AJATT or Anki/SRS.
6) He has a cultish following which is somewhat scary
7) As an extension to #6, he himself seems to think that he is god
8) His knowledge of Japanese is very superficial (nothing wrong with that if using Japanese is all you care about) but he attempts to argue about deep topics without knowing what he's talking about (etymology, linguistics, grammar, etc)

Wow. It's amazing what one post can do to change how you think. I always thought of khatz as a god-on-earth until I read ^.

OP almost makes it sound like everyone on this site lives by the AJATT code. Though he doesn't say it in so many words, the post makes it sound like everyone has settled their disagreements and unanimously agreed that AJATT is the True Way.

alyks Wrote:If only you could have come around about two years ago, that was when everything started up.

Actually, this forum has been a thriving community for nearly four years by now. Don't discount a whole two years of discussion just because you hadn't found the place yet.

Haha. Jarvik's post is a pretty good summary of why I've never read AJATT for more than a minute.

[ファブリス]

alyks Wrote:When Fabrice still had the highest post count...

Hey!

Here's my personal history of the forum, if it helps: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...7#pid67017

I'm no AJATT purist, but I think the OP's list is putting sentences as the heart of the method, when the heart of the method is supposed to be the immersion... the AJATT.

IceCream Wrote:but the 1 thing i think is the most important thing about his site is the attitude of it. If you don't like his personality, fair enough. But, he makes learning a language seem so totally possible.

This.
Think of Katz or his method what you will, but his website is motivating like hell.

I think people forget that while a lot of what Khatz writes isn't exactly ground breakingly new, it's also not widely known by many language learners. Most beginner language learners use methods that don't work effectively, have little or no understanding of how language aquisition works and have no first hand experience in it. So while basic concepts like focusing of native reading/listening material, immersion etc become incredibly obvious after a while, it's not exactly obvious to the complete noob. The word noob excludes anyone who has effectively taught themselves a foreign language, majored in a foreign language, or was lucky enough to grow up in a country where languages are taught half decently at elementary/highschool. Your average monolingual English speaking American, Aussie or Brit definitely fits the noob category.

@Icecream: I agree that he can be an inspiration or role model. That's not something someone can deny, since it's a personal thing. "No! He's not inspiring you!" Personally his website just makes me want to turn off my computer, if only because of his incredibly annoying English.

Aside from the stuff about khatz or his site, most of the criticism of AJATT itself (aka a dumb name for total immersion) is that while it can work, it's not necessary or even desirable to cut yourself off completely from your previous life.

I enjoyed his style of writing even if others didn't. It at least had some flavour to it even if that did leave a bad taste in some peoples mouths.

I definitely agree that he was hugely inspiring and made it seem learning something so huge with so much perceived difficulty as an almost no-brainer. As far as what he has to say isn't groundbreaking, well, that's exactly right. But yes, it was definitely new to me when I read it and it opened my eyes to a system of learning that actually made a whole lot of sense.

It took me quite a while to wake up from the AJATT dream and ground my goals in my personal reality and I think that's quite an important thing not getting sucked into the whole 勝元　（かつもと）　＝　神様 mindset.

My view on SRSing sentences has done a bit of an S-bend and the final conclusion i've come to is that SRSing sentences is mega useful in the beginning up until about your first 2000 - 3000 vocab plus doing up to about mid level grammar. After that SRSing sentences for vocab/recognition isn't necessary if you're immersion is high but SRSing sentences for output (English - Japanese) at this point is actually quite useful in upping your output.

Guess we all have our different styles but for a lot of us our roots go back to AJATT (or stem from there).

JimmySeal Wrote:Actually, this forum has been a thriving community for nearly four years by now. Don't discount a whole two years of discussion just because you hadn't found the place yet.

So wait, this forum was around before Heisig and the Reviewing the Kanji flashcard system?? I'd really love a condensed history of the forum..

Also I know this gets asked alot, but ir's worth asking again; how many on here have now achieved fluency via the AJATT system? There must be a few..

@aphasiac: That is an impossible to answer question. Everyone's definition of fluency is different and some people set the bar quite low. (I've heard JLPT3/4 described as fluent before!)

I would say that the answer is 0 though. It seems that once people do AJATT for a few weeks or months they make extensive modifications to the method.

Also, I don't know if you were being serious or not, but RTK dates back to the late 70s/early 80s iirc.

I would argue that there never really was a "method" in the first place.

Khatz himself (quite recently, especially over the past few months) has stated repeatedly that AJATT is a thing to be experimented with, something that will differ to suit each person's tastes and preferences.
If there was ever any universal method involved, I'd say it would probably be the SRS, a tool I discovered from AJATT and have been utilizing extensively over the past year and (nearly) a half - but even then, it's by no means an essential tool to language learning.

It's all about showing up and doing the time... the method can be anything.

alyks Wrote:[...]As I wrote and wrote, I looked back on the way everything used to be around here. When everything was new, and the older members here were newer members. [...]If only you could have come around about two years ago, that was when everything started up. [..] But things aren't like they used to be, and the novelty is gone.

What a hoot! Alyks, you sound like some old geezer who has returned to his former local pub to reminisce dreamily about the good ol' days. He's so caught up in delusions of pioneering he's not able to see how things were or are now. He can't see the progress and the newcomers with their exciting ideas and generous spirit. So he just keeps telling the same old stories...while the young guys nod politely.

I notice you didn't mention Fabrice's forum in your response. You should. The person might find other people's progress inspiring. There's such a range of levels now (including native speakers) that there's always someone a bit more advanced who can help. Generous wizards continue to contribute their magic code here and have come up with great new stuff. Resources have multiplied. The breadth and depth of topics continues to expand. Arguments tend to involve more than a couple beginners arguing about stuff they know little about. People seem to have moved well beyond AJATT rhetoric.

To the new member: if you have found this forum and are reading this, welcome! Jarvik7's post above represents the kind of balance of opinions you'll find here. You might want to check out the Movie Method thread as well for more balanced opinions. Look around, I think you'll find all kinds of helpful new ideas and people.

Alyks, you say this New Method (?!) worked. How did it work for you? You were often keen to report your progress. You were also indignant and fiercely adamant that you would achieve native fluency by March (RTK +18 mos). (I normally wouldn't put someone on the spot like this, but you had a bit of a tantrum when well-meaning folks tried to manage your expectations back then.) [edit-fixed garbled stuff]

Burritolingus Wrote:It's all about showing up and doing the time... the method can be anything.

That's the most solid thing anyone's said in a while. It's just straight up true.

...

I could use a burrito right now.. Damn Japan and it's lack of cheap mexican/texmex restaurants/fastfood. Why do we get crap like Subway but not tacobell/tacotime?

Burritolingus Wrote:I would argue that there never really was a "method" in the first place.

Khatz himself (quite recently, especially over the past few months) has stated repeatedly that AJATT is a thing to be experimented with, something that will differ to suit each person's tastes and preferences.

I thought Khatz specially took the method from http://www.antimoon.com and applied it to Japanese. The only new thing he added was 24/7 audio immersion.