mezbup Wrote:

Burritolingus Wrote:It's all about showing up and doing the time... the method can be anything.

That's the most solid thing anyone's said in a while. It's just straight up true.

I would add to that, though... The time doesn't have to be hours per day.

I'm nowhere near those who have studied hours a day or immersed themselves 24/7, but in a couple years I've gotten to the point where I enjoy (even if I don't fully comprehend) manga and can almost watch anime without subs. Some days I don't 'study' at all and just read manga at lunch. Other days I study for maybe 30 minutes, an hour if I'm -really- ambitious. Actually, most days, it's just the manga and maybe some anime.

My point is that dedication is enough to get there, if you don't mind taking a while. It doesn't have to interrupt your life, and everyone -does- have the extra time in a day needed to do it. It simply doesn't take that much time and can usually be slipped into a time when you had nothing else to do, like waiting for your lunch at the restaurant, or sitting on a bus, or something.

aphasiac Wrote:So wait, this forum was around before Heisig and the Reviewing the Kanji flashcard system?? I'd really love a condensed history of the forum..

The Heisig flashcard functionality on this site has been around since about August 2005, if the first news item is any indication. Mr. Fabrice announced the launch of the forum on June 14, 2006. (I was off by a few months when I said "nearly four years.")

JimmySeal Wrote:The Heisig flashcard functionality on this site has been around since about August 2005, if the first news item is any indication. Mr. Fabrice announced the launch of the forum on June 14, 2006. (I was off by a few months when I said "nearly four years.")

Ah I see; fascinating!

It must have been exciting times on here when AJATT suddenly appeared! Any funny anecdotes from this forums history that you'd like to share (big events/trolls etc?)

I've never been an AJATT adherent, so I can't reminisce much about that, but the discovery of Anki was a big event for me and a lot of members here. Once the creator of Anki caught wind of the stir it was causing here, he participated in the forum a little, and the first Anki thread here, intermingled with comments and bug reports, went on for 1000 posts before Mr. Fabrice eventually put a stop to it:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=553

A "no bug reports" thread started up with the closing of that one, and went on for 308 posts before being closed

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=992&page=1

The most amusing time in this forum's history that I can remember is the time a member posed an innocuous question about learning Esperanto. This somehow caused an interloper to magically appear, which launched a flame war the likes of which I won't soon forget. You can read all about it here:

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=777

wccrawford Wrote:My point is that dedication is enough to get there, if you don't mind taking a while. It doesn't have to interrupt your life, and everyone -does- have the extra time in a day needed to do it. It simply doesn't take that much time and can usually be slipped into a time when you had nothing else to do, like waiting for your lunch at the restaurant, or sitting on a bus, or something.

Amen.

But, I think there's still one important point that's missing:

Process vs Results.

Beyond the introduction and it's infamous 18-month time frame and the infamous 10,000 sentence number, AJATT is about process, not about results. AJATT cannot promise results, and it doesn't try to beyond demanding that you believe that success is possible and challenge yourself accordingly.

AJATT is about having fun and not caring about how much you suck. AJATT is about embracing failure and setting the short-term bar low. AJATT is showing up and letting Japanese seduce your time from you--not beating yourself up to "put in the time."

Can I be "fluent" in another year? さあ？構わん！Setting a big vague goal like that only sets me up for painful failure. I love failure--if it's small and constant and thus no more painful than warm summer rain. That's no reason to set up a dry-ice Sword of Damocles by saying "I'll be fluent by this time next year."

I do know this: the last six months has been 楽しさがいっぱい。As my skill increases, my fun-to-time ratio can only increase with it, so I'm looking at more than doubling my running total of fun before that magic day rolls around--if fun were the sort of thing you could count.

And that is enough for me.

But there are people who say "results or nothing, measure everything." Well this is just my opinion, but I'm very sure AJATT isn't for them. You can't really count fun. They can keep counting study hours, sentences, test scores, or successful hook-up rates at Japanese bars or whatever.

To such people I can make one concession. The next opportunity for me to take the JLPT 1 will be at about 17 months of study for me. The next one after that, 29 months. I don't have much interest in studying for the test, but I'll take it every year until I pass.

And I'll let you know how I did. Because it's kind of entertaining to watch results-based people argue--I assume they have fun with it.

Let's not forget the JLPT1 in 3 months thread.

The media is conspiring to hide AJATT from the public, hence the lack of coverage!

Jarvik7 Wrote:The media is conspiring to hide AJATT from the public, hence the lack of coverage!

Can you be sure that by opposing AJATT you're not, albeit perhaps unknowingly, aligning yourself with Hitler?

Nii87 Wrote:...If the guy is so unfamiliar with everything, how did he get your email in the first place Alyks?

I happen to have three websites setup.

@Jarvik7

Those eight things were most of what we argued about. Probably still are on here. I don't actually know what's been happening since I left.

But the point was to remember what it was like when you (I) first learned about everything, not to make it seem like the next generation bastardized it. Like it or not, AJATT helped most people here in one way or the other, even if you disagreed with one of his methods. Despite our agreement that constant study is the most probable way of getting anywhere, AJATT did inspire, did turn us on to SRS, and did help us set up immersion.

Everyone loves broad-generalizations!

Jarvik7 Wrote:Everyone loves broad-generalizations!

Ok, everybody listen. For the record, Jarvik doesn't like AJATT. He wants you to know that he disagrees completely with AJATT and its ideas.

Can't we just agree to disagree and move on?

What AJATT did for me:

1. Motivation.
2. Made me aware of SRS.
3. Made me aware of Heisig/RTK.
4. Made me start learning Japanese after 7-8 years of almost starting to learn Japanese.
5. Helped me to get over my fear of (academic) failure.

The fourth point alone makes him a saint, a god and a saviour rolled into one. The method itself is―and always has been―secondary.

alyks Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:Everyone loves broad-generalizations!

Ok, everybody listen. For the record, Jarvik doesn't like AJATT. He wants you to know that he disagrees completely with AJATT and its ideas.

Can't we just agree to disagree and move on?

Sure. Let's move on to my earlier question please.

lagwagon555 Wrote:Wow. It's amazing what one post can do to change how you think. I always thought of khatz as a god-on-earth until I read ^.

I need the [satire][/satire] tags so I know if you're actually being swayed by rhetoric (from either side) that easily or not.

Because if you are, I've got some things I'd like to sell you.

I think some people take online forums way too seriously.

And I like Khatz. He's funny. I think a lot of people don't like/understand his sarcasm. He introduced me to every tool I currently use to learn Japanese. My friend Makiko watched his bar-talk-y video and said he spoke very well, and that even though he spoke in short sentences, he spoke incredibly naturally (pronunciation, tone, inflection, etc).

Some people seem to just care about the dumbest things... I mean, I think a few of you guys need a few tablespoons of apathy every morning, especially before sitting in front of a computer.

Thora summed it well. I found this forum around July 2007 and I mark that as my starting time for really learning Japanese. From this forum I found: AJATT, Anki, Tae Kim, 2001KO, Coordinated sentence mining of structured sources (2001KO, UBJG, Making Out in Japanese, AAP), iKnow (now smart.fm), MovieMethod (which I like but did not finish), subs2srs.

On top of that, I found a forum that attracted non-native English speakers that surpass native English quality. People that can code around problems and create great programs they didn't think were that great (like subs2srs) but were. And Tobberoth.

In fact, so much has happened on this forum, I know I'm not listing a percentage of beneficial material that was gleamed from here that applies to more than just Japanese.

About AJATT: It's a mixed bag for me. I think it's the best source for tips on how to alter your environment in various ways (the actual AJATT part). The studying part was always the thinnest part of his blog. It's the part this forum provides in spades, on top of serious discussions that Khatzumoto is actively against with regards to forums.

Aphasiac, I've been doing AJATT of a sort for 2.5 years. While I'm functional at listening, speaking, reading and writing, I'm no where near fluent or literate. Just listening to that horrible conversation I recorded in November is proof of that. To be fair, while it's embarrassing to show my progress (and I've been called out on my slow progress a few times), at least it's there to gauge by others. To be honest, the posting of progress by others such as Alyks and Ice Cream and Masamo (although his is Japanese to English) has boosted my desire to speed things up. Much more motivating than any initial motivation I got from the AJATT blog.

[ファブリス]

aphasiac Wrote:So wait, this forum was around before Heisig and the Reviewing the Kanji flashcard system?? (...)

Lol, no chance, the first edition of Remembering the Kanji was published in 1977.

The website was first online in August 2005 (oldest posts on the news archive), with a flashcard review page and the Leitner bar graph. Later came the Check progress page, and finally the Study area (early Oct 2005).

The forums were added much later in June 2006.

Thora Wrote:

alyks Wrote:[...]As I wrote and wrote, I looked back on the way everything used to be around here. When everything was new, and the older members here were newer members. [...]If only you could have come around about two years ago, that was when everything started up. [..] But things aren't like they used to be, and the novelty is gone.

What a hoot! Alyks, you sound like some old geezer who has returned to his former local pub to reminisce dreamily about the good ol' days. He's so caught up in delusions of pioneering he's not able to see how things were or are now. He can't see the progress and the newcomers with their exciting ideas and generous spirit. So he just keeps telling the same old stories...while the young guys nod politely.

I notice you didn't mention Fabrice's forum in your response. You should. The person might find other people's progress inspiring. There's such a range of levels now (including native speakers) that there's always someone a bit more advanced who can help. Generous wizards continue to contribute their magic code here and have come up with great new stuff. Resources have multiplied. The breadth and depth of topics continues to expand. Arguments tend to involve more than a couple beginners arguing about stuff they know little about. People seem to have moved well beyond AJATT rhetoric.

To the new member: if you have found this forum and are reading this, welcome! Jarvik7's post above represents the kind of balance of opinions you'll find here. You might want to check out the Movie Method thread as well for more balanced opinions. Look around, I think you'll find all kinds of helpful new ideas and people.

Alyks, you say this New Method (?!) worked. How did it work for you? You were often keen to report your progress. You were also indignant and fiercely adamant that you would achieve native fluency by March (RTK +18 mos). (I normally wouldn't put someone on the spot like this, but you had a bit of a tantrum when well-meaning folks tried to manage your expectations back then.) [edit-fixed garbled stuff]

This. ^_^

I agree that AJATT ppl do alot of modification for it. Like he says only to add 10,000 you enjoy. I tend to add basics first, work on my writing kanji from memory by doing kana-kanji and as well as kanji-kana for reading+understanding and do all my practise writing kanji. But it's weird, all the ppl who have got fluent by his method, success stories on his site, they never detailed what they did daily to get there. And never described if they were fluent in "everywhere" way. They say reading,understanding,speaking but never said writing. I might be wrong maybe they are by doing all those constant reviews. But unno it just seems weird to me. It has been working so far i've been doing it, but i've added my own stuff along the way, not just doing solely ajatt-method. like using kanji odyssey and tae kim grammar,etc.

Thora Wrote:Alyks, you say this New Method (?!) worked. How did it work for you? You were often keen to report your progress. You were also indignant and fiercely adamant that you would achieve native fluency by March (RTK +18 mos). (I normally wouldn't put someone on the spot like this, but you had a bit of a tantrum when well-meaning folks tried to manage your expectations back then.) [edit-fixed garbled stuff]

Come now. I was fluent after 1 year. Hell, I was having conversations with natives, remember ? I was even correcting native grammar (as if thats hard).

mezbup Wrote:I wonder what the man actually did to achieve what he did in 18 months.

It's now been almost 18 months and I can say with a great degree of confidence... fluency is over-rated. What the hell is it anyway? I could confidently pass a job interview, right now, in Japanese (the standard that seemed to determine fluency), but if some kid came up to me and had a chat I'd only get half of what he/she was saying. I can navigate sites in Japanese, and order a freaking pizza (standards of fluency?), but I can't for the life of me figure out if -なくなくcompounds a negative or makes a positive.

I used to think fluency was just being able to have a conversation. Some other people seem to believe it's no less than being able to give an extemporaneous oral presentation on any subject.

The more I study though, the more I realize there is no such thing as fluency. There is only what you do know, and what you don't. What you don't know is usually much greater in proportion to what you do.

It's the same in any language. Mother tongue or foreign, if you can't understand what's being said to you, you can't give a proper response. In order to give a proper response... you gotta study.

For the record: Me 'no' AJATT.

Revised list.

--0: Belief

The only thing I believe is that learning is just a matter of time.

--1: Tools - SRS, Remembering the Kanji (or better, the Movie Method)

Found these on how to learn any language.com and kanji clinic

--2: Kanji

Delicious, but leaves a weird after taste.

--3: Kana

Learned through dictation... on smartfm

--4: Sentences

Do taekim, kanzen master, and smartfm count? What about scriptorium? Shadowing?

--5: 24/7 Ear rapage

Listening for hours to stuff you don't comprehend is... annoying. Learn a bunch of words and then bombard your ears. Or, use subs2srs to learn and bombard at the same time.

--6: Deny studying grammar when you actually do.

Priceless. Or maybe it's not meant to be taken 'literally,' or 'as read.'

--7: Maximum Ego

Check

LOLOLOL

sethg Wrote:My friend Makiko watched his bar-talk-y video and said he spoke very well, and that even though he spoke in short sentences, he spoke incredibly naturally (pronunciation, tone, inflection, etc).

She is clearly lying so Khatz won't lose his face. It's so obvious!

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

sethg Wrote:My friend Makiko watched his bar-talk-y video and said he spoke very well, and that even though he spoke in short sentences, he spoke incredibly naturally (pronunciation, tone, inflection, etc).

She is clearly lying so Khatz won't lose his face. It's so obvious!

さすが勝元陰謀事件

edit: what's the bet he wears a "haters make me famous" tshirt? cos they so do.

AJATT - For me it opened up some BIG doors -

nadiatims Wrote:I think people forget that while a lot of what Khatz writes isn't exactly ground breakingly new, it's also not widely known by many language learners. Most beginner language learners use methods that don't work effectively, have little or no understanding of how language acquisition works and have no first hand experience in it. So while basic concepts like focusing of native reading/listening material, immersion etc become incredibly obvious after a while, it's not exactly obvious to the complete noob. The word noob excludes anyone who has effectively taught themselves a foreign language, majored in a foreign language, or was lucky enough to grow up in a country where languages are taught half decently at elementary/highschool. Your average monolingual English speaking American, Aussie or Brit definitely fits the noob category.

Exactly true. My journey began with a deep interest in Japanese culture (that came over time too - a journey in of itself) and desire to learn "a bit" of the language, so I could show respect to Japanese people when I went there. So I ripped Pimsleur from my local library and took my first baby steps. It was fun.....

After about two or three months of this, I realized it would not give me much to work with in the real world (I knew without a doubt - people don't talk like that!)...I wanted more.

Google search - "how to learn Japanese" ---> AJATT. Like light breaking through the black clouds of my "language acquisition" ignorance! The blog was motivating and introduced me to a ton of idea's that were ground breaking for me at the time. Before that, reading kanji was so far out of my realm of what I thought feasible. After some hours of reading Khatz's words, I was a changed man. I wanted to learn reading and writing, and I wanted to become "fluent". And I realized it was possible to do so, without taking a class (I think I was about to try and find a class at that time too). Sure, I was still pretty clueless, but I saw the logic of many of the things I had read, and trusted my gut that it was valuable. At that point I was "all in", and things have never been the same since. This was almost exactly one year ago.

And from what I've seen in the forums here, a similar thing happened to many others.

I am really grateful that I found the AJATT site, and am definitely thankful to and have respect for the man, but I don't personally put Khatzumoto up on a massive pedestal of worshipful adulation. It got me to shift paradigms, and linked me here. And from my own tinkering with things, and tons of idea's from the RTK community, I continue to make inroads.

I think it's fair to say that reading his blog as a "monolingual noob" was indeed "life changing", so- Thanks AJATT!

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

sethg Wrote:My friend Makiko watched his bar-talk-y video and said he spoke very well, and that even though he spoke in short sentences, he spoke incredibly naturally (pronunciation, tone, inflection, etc).

She is clearly lying so Khatz won't lose his face. It's so obvious!

hehe, I often see sarcasm that 'defends' Khatz from legitimate criticism, in other words, sarcasm that seeks to counter an absurd rendition of that criticism as a straw man. So I will counterbalance the tone of these forms of sarcasm with my own: Her anecdotal opinion clearly matters because the Japanese ability of someone making claims on the internet is the only criterion to uncritically accept their suggestions (with a bit of 'wink wink I'm not a guru but I really am, plz donate, just kidding but no I'm not, nudge nudge' thrown in) and clearly she's the sole magistrate that judges Japanese ability, and not one of many natives and fluent foreigners who have voiced opinions on Khatzumoto's Japanese ability to varying degrees.

My actual opinion: Who cares, he's been studying Japanese for years, apparently, and we have no idea how his abilities developed, so it's easier to slot his advice into the advice of others and discuss its merits as part of a collection of ideas.

QuackingShoe Wrote:

lagwagon555 Wrote:Wow. It's amazing what one post can do to change how you think. I always thought of khatz as a god-on-earth until I read ^.

I need the [satire][/satire] tags so I know if you're actually being swayed by rhetoric (from either side) that easily or not.

Because if you are, I've got some things I'd like to sell you.

I'm interested, I'm just broke at the moment. I bought my fifth round of AJATT QRGs the other day.