It's time for the new semester and I was thinking of squeezing in a 3 credit japanese course: Intermediate Japanese II (which would be the 4th semester). I took the 2nd and 3rd semester courses (since I knew just enough to test out of the 1st semester) and looking back, I don't really remember much from having taken those classes at all.

Lectures are mostly:
* Lecture about some point of grammar
* Do an exercise using the grammar with classmates... which usually devolve into discussions about what's going on people's lives in english.

Tests are usually:
* Vocab (English <=> Japanese)
* Recognizing Kanji readings
* Translate a sentence from E>J or J>E
* Short answer

I don't really know if those classes are useful to me for learning japanese, but I've got a few friends there (some only from the class, others that I see all the time). I've passed both of the previous classes with As mostly because I could cram the grammar/vocab in right before the tests.

People's strong opinions are welcome.

If getting those 3 credits from Japanese will make it so you don't have to take some other boring class to make up the credit then I say go for it.

Western universities are usually a bit too optimistic about their classes. It may be called Intermediate II, but fourth semester is usually more like upper basic (probably using genki II or equivalent still) unless the classes are intensive.

You may just want to test out of it and take a higher level class, or some jp culture/literature classes instead of burning a credit. At my university there was a maximum number of JAPAN faculty credits one could take, so I had to pass on some stuff I wanted to take since I wouldn't get credit :/

Well, I'm taking this japanese course at my local community college and it's the top-most japanese class that they offer.


Eh. You know what? I just won't take it. >_<

You should take it. Maybe you can get a minor in Japanese too.

I always enjoyed learning in a group environment the most. But I was just trying to impress a certain girl in my class

if it's anything like my Spanish Intermediate II class, I haven't learned much pass "Como esta?" i love community colleges now i got all the free time in the world to learn the language i want to study (Japanese)... I hope they do have a fast paced Japanese course when I finally do transfer to a college that teaches Japanese.

Not sure if this is relevant to anyone, but I think at my Uni I can work a way to get credits for my Japanese self studies, as they don't offer advanced courses and I can work the independent course angle - this is according to the Japanese teacher. I still am looking into it though.... I'd bet this is an option in other places too, that is if they want to get the credits in this area....

Everybody's different, but I've found that I can move orders of magnitude faster with a language when doing independent study as compared to one of those classes. I'd say that a few months of independent study is about equivalent to a whole year of classes. YMMV. In any case, here's some pros and cons.

Cons:
-The native speaker (teacher) often slows down their speech beyond the point of naturalness, so when you hear other native speakers talking at native speed, it's unfamiliar.
-"Class pace" usually belabors vocabulary and gives only simplified, occasionally misleading explanations of grammar.
-If you let the teacher set your goals for you, you may become a passive learner, which simply doesn't work with languages (not that it works for other subjects...).
-You don't have to do much work in arranging your study schedule (a pro), but you don't make as much progress as if you had.
-You don't really have an hour of contact with the language in an hour-long class. You have an hour of contact with non native speakers mispronouncing the language in horrible ways, and the possibility of accidentally internalizing their accents.

Pros:
-Meet other people like you who are studying the language.
-Hear about opportunities to study the language outside of class (i.e. study abroad, language exchange with native speakers).
-Be able to ask a native speaker questions about the language and get a definite answer.

I am in the same position as the OP. I took three semesters at Harvard Extension School and need to decide whether to take the 4th semester.

At Harvard they use the Grammar-Translation teaching method. More info on this method and its definition: http://www.sdkrashen.com/Principles_and_...html#V-A-1 (sorry, I'm not good at forum codes). I think this method is in use most places, and it is the method used by Genki and the book used at Harvard, Nakama.

Quote:The native speaker (teacher) often slows down their speech beyond the point of naturalness, so when you hear other native speakers talking at native speed, it's unfamiliar.

Remember, it is only beneficial if speech (or text) is understood. If it is not understood, it is of no benefit. In the class I take, the only exposure to speech which might be too fast for you is homework (where you can listen multiple times) and exams (where the point is to judge ability).

Quote:"Class pace" usually belabors vocabulary and gives only simplified, occasionally misleading explanations of grammar.

The simpler the better. The first step to understanding is memorization - a simple explanation is more likely to be memorized.

As for the other drawbacks you mentioned...they are real drawbacks to learning in a class and I offer no argument against them. I don't think the pros you mention are very strong either.

The part I enjoyed most about the third semester of Japanese at Harvard: two "fun classes." About one hour was devoted to "studying" two Japanese short stories. I might get the name wrong, but the first one was Kasa Jizou (or something?) about a troubled bamboo hat seller. The last one was Manjuu Kowai, a comedy story about a traveler who schemes to get free food from village residents. The instructor prepared these stories for the class by typing them in a word processor, adding furigana where she thought it was necessary, and adding a word index (for unknown words) at the bottom of each page with footnotes in the text.

Yeah, I mostly agree with the other posters about the good points of taking a class. I actually just started 5th quarter Japanese (pretty much 4th semester) yesterday and was surprised at how poor the class was.

I remember I was advocating taking classes since I had good experiences with them in undergrad (funny teachers, good friends, pretty fast pace). Now I'm taking Japanese five years later in grad school (via a placement test) and the students don't seem as good/motivated - I guess I'll see how it goes...

Anyway, I'd say go to the first few classes at least and see if you like it. Worst case you drop it, get your refund, and go back to watching Japanese TV all the time

jcdietz03 Wrote:

Quote:The native speaker (teacher) often slows down their speech beyond the point of naturalness, so when you hear other native speakers talking at native speed, it's unfamiliar.

Remember, it is only beneficial if speech (or text) is understood. If it is not understood, it is of no benefit. In the class I take, the only exposure to speech which might be too fast for you is homework (where you can listen multiple times) and exams (where the point is to judge ability).

Everybody learns differently and I'm sure we've all got our own ideas on language learning, but I don't believe complete comprehension is important at all in the early stages. Speaking from my own experience learning languages in school and on my own, and teaching later in life, I've come to believe that internalization is the key to language acquisition, really at all stages, but especially in the early stages. I have a strong suspicion that fast speech is just as easy to learn at the early stages as slow speech on the condition that you have a native speaker to model after.

There are a lot of ideas out there, and I'm not saying this is best for everybody, but if you listen to any of the Pimsleur CD/tape courses, giving an example that I think does it right, they pronounce the words slowly only on first contact, and the rest of the time the speech is at a natural speed--granted it's not as fast as it could be, but it's far faster and far less stilted than most teachers in front of classes would dare to talk.

The other side of the coin is that sometimes foreign language teachers will teach the target language using English phonemes. Maybe not too problematic with Japanese sounds, since the only sounds entirely alien to English can be approximated with English ones at little cost to our own comprehension. However, it can be more problematic with Japanese stress patterns, which are hard to hear in slow-motion. The result is often that students will learn to hear and speak Japanese using English stress patterns, diphthongizing and lengthening certain vowels when speaking and not recognizing words they "know," in the rapid-fire and evenly stressed speech of native speakers.

Quote:

Quote:"Class pace" usually belabors vocabulary and gives only simplified, occasionally misleading explanations of grammar.

The simpler the better. The first step to understanding is memorization - a simple explanation is more likely to be memorized.

But a complete explanation is more likely to be helpful. Then again, I honestly don't know how any teacher could cover all the material they'd need to cover to teach the grammar of any foreign language in any class. That's why I think self-study is by far more effective: you can get closer to the point of understanding how the language works without being held back by trying to memorize lists of words in isolation. If you work on your own for an hour a day, focusing on only the grammar sections of any good Japanese textbook, you can familiarize yourself with everything in the book in about a month and master 60% of it in two months. By comparison, classes usually take a year to get to the same point because they have to account for everyone's different learning speeds and belabor the vocabulary, which you do not need at first, at least not to understand the grammar.