Is someone saying that anime/manga aren't high brow? I will fight you.

アニメそれとも漫画の凄い！

I have to admit what I said was a brutal generalisation. But I still believe that a multilingual student whose native language is related to Japanese will have an easier time learning it.

liosama Wrote:

Nii87 Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:Unfortunately my student didn't take to the language very well. Learning a few vocab words and a few hiragana was all she really managed, so I'll have to slow down my lesson plan's pace a lot. I understand that Japanese can be very difficult at first for a lot of people, so I am not too discouraged.

If you want to go at a faster pace, try finding some Asian-American students to teach. They usually have a keen interest in Japan too, due to it being an (ex) economic powerhouse. They are usually bilingual or trilingual too, with a strong command of kanji so can learn other languages easily. They also have that diehard Asian discipline when required to learn something. You'll be able to go at a faster pace.

Great so let her pick and choose her students based on a presupposed idea that Asian students somehow study harder than non-Asian students, have a *love-hate relationship with Japan if anything, may or may not have a strong command of characters. Cmon dude

I don't know guys you are all going overkill with all this advice business. This is her student, and her lesson, let her experience everything for herself. She asked for our advice as to how we went about studying Japanese for the first time and wanted an idea of how it would be like in order to better teach her student. It takes time to get accustomed to a student and their learning patterns.

LONGEST POST EVER.

Nii87 Wrote:I have to admit what I said was a brutal generalisation. But I still believe that a multilingual student whose native language is related to Japanese will have an easier time learning it.

But not all Asians in America speak their family's tongue fluently. I knew a boy who was half-Korean, half-white, and while he could fully understand Korean, he could not speak a word of it. Not understanding Korean grammar--which, as far as I have seen, appears to be very similar to Japanese--would put him as much at a disadvantage as a non-Asian English speaker.

Even Asians who come to America in their adolescence are likely to forget a lot of their native tongue, and furthermore fail to develop a strong, fundamental understanding of the workings of their first language. I think any connection made will be so insignificant that I don't personally believe they'll have too much of a leg up compared to other English speakers.

If we're talking about Asians who have recently come to America, realistically, doesn't what you're saying only include Chinese and Koreans (who probably have enough of an advantage that they don't need a lot of help anyway)?

I suppose this is completely subjective, but I don't see why Japanese should be any more difficult for an English speaker than a Chinese or Korean speaker. Yes, the language families are quite different, but I think Japanese grammar and pronunciation are highly logical, even if the kanji may be confusing initially (which, when you get right down to it, is probably the most logical part of the entire language).

Aijin Wrote:Unfortunately my student didn't take to the language very well. Learning a few vocab words and a few hiragana was all she really managed, so I'll have to slow down my lesson plan's pace a lot. I understand that Japanese can be very difficult at first for a lot of people, so I am not too discouraged.

Other people might have already covered this in the thread, but have you asked her (or tried to find) specifically what her strengths are, in terms of learning? For example, if she's an auditory learner, she is much less likely to immediately excel in writing kanji or kana. I know for me, kanji, kana and reading came quite easily, but listening and speaking are still a huge struggle for me, even after a couple years or so of self-study.

Aijin Wrote:But, it does kinda' bum me that most of the students are only interested in anime/manga/Japanese pop music. I really have no interest nor knowledge any of those things, so when students start talking on and on about Dragonball Z or new video games I just have a blank stare on my face I try to learn a little about those things though.

I know what you mean, while I was completely in love with Sailormoon when I was 11 (LOL), I passionately dislike anime and am indifferent towards JPOP. I think you can expose your student to different (more refined) parts of the culture, I think it's simply a matter of what kind.

For example--not to offend anyone--I find reading about Japanese customs and politeness to be immensely boring, but classical Japanese literature, history and anthropology are fascinating to me. Like I think it's incredibly interesting that Japanese people have their own unique haplogroup. But those aren't really things I found out about until I had been studying Japanese for awhile, because 99% of the people studying Japanese either like it for a. pop culture, b. sumo, c. geisha or d. samurai/ninja. It's not that there is anything essentially wrong with any of these things, they're just not anything I'm passionate about. On the other hand, I'd never seen a discussion like, "Hey guys, let's talk about 縄文人 and how they genetically differ from the 弥生人."

Anyways, my point is, maybe try exposing them to lesser considered aspects of Japanese culture, like calligraphy, art, architecture, etc. Something more substantial than how cool Naruto was last night may stick.

mirina Wrote:I suppose this is completely subjective, but I don't see why Japanese should be any more difficult for an English speaker than a Chinese or Korean speaker. Yes, the language families are quite different, but I think Japanese grammar and pronunciation are highly logical, even if the kanji may be confusing initially (which, when you get right down to it, is probably the most logical part of the entire language).
…
But not all Asians in America speak their family's tongue fluently. I knew a boy who was half-Korean, half-white, and while he could fully understand Korean, he could not speak a word of it. Not understanding Korean grammar--which, as far as I have seen, appears to be very similar to Japanese--would put him as much at a disadvantage as a non-Asian English speaker.

I'm not a native English speaker but I've been studying this language for a while. I also had a couple of years of German and French at High School. When I see a simple sentence in Spanish I quite often can make a guess on what it means. And even if I don't know the meaning of some words there, I can remember whole thing relatively easily because I've seen those patterns before, so this language feels logical and just 'right'. Haven't I been exposed to languages mentioned above, Spanish would feel much more challenging as my native language lacks such concept as article for example, relies heavily on conjugations and uses free words order on top of using different alphabet. So my brain would have to digest a lot of completely new and unfamiliar information while processing even a simple sentence.

If your half-Korean friend really understands Korean fully, he is used to a lot of patterns even if he can't really explain them. He will still have to learn a lot to get fluent in Japanese yet some things will stick to him easier compared to someone who has only been exposed to English language before because they won't sound totally alien to him. It will be even easier to someone who actually speaks Korean and Chinese student will have an obvious advantage of knowing kanji.

May be most languages are equally complicated up there at the level of fluency but on initial stages of learning process some languages are harder that others depending on what your language background is.


Now back on topic a bit, I agree that a teacher shouldn't be obliged to like things his students like and that you can't please anyone anyway, yet looking at this problem from the student's perspective, I'd rather have a tutor that at least respects my interests and knows how to use them to help my learning process instead of pushing his personal interests on me. I'd be thankful for him introducing new and exciting things about Japan to me but only if it happens slow and naturally and builds upon what I already like without trying to replace it.

So if I was a tutor myself, I'd try to find time to educate myself on most common interests among learners of the language I teach. My English teacher at school did this and it made all the difference and became a main reason I speak somewhat decent English and almost no German or French. For me a teacher that gives student a passion for the language is worth more than the one who gives just knowledge, especially at the current age when so many self-studying resources are available.

Aijin Wrote:I am not sure if I'd be cut out to teach basic language classes for long either. It's fun and enjoyable in short amounts, but teaching です loses its joy after a while, whereas literature never gets boring Maybe it'd be better if I looked into a career as a graduate teacher rather undergrad. Or a combination of both. Hmm.

So are you looking for students? I've been looking for a conversation tutor in the area.

IceCream Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:Is someone saying that anime/manga aren't high brow? I will fight you.

i dunno, havent seen much of it. but, my classification includes maus. does that count?

Spiegelman's? There's a manga/anime for that?

nest0r Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:Is someone saying that anime/manga aren't high brow? I will fight you.

i dunno, havent seen much of it. but, my classification includes maus. does that count?

Spiegelman's? There's a manga/anime for that?

Yeah, I agree with IceCream. I haven't really seen that much "highbrow" anime or manga. But there are some manga that truly have literary merit, and some incredibly creative and well-written anime.

I don't know whether Art Spiegelman's Maus should be included... it technically gets classified as a "graphic novel," but there's some debate as to whether manga can be considered as falling within the same genre. But I thought we were talking about Japanese anime and manga, right?

Anyways, works don't have to be "highbrow" to be really enjoyable.

shirokuro Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:

IceCream Wrote:i dunno, havent seen much of it. but, my classification includes maus. does that count?

Spiegelman's? There's a manga/anime for that?

Yeah, I agree with IceCream. I haven't really seen that much "highbrow" anime or manga. But there are some manga that truly have literary merit, and some incredibly creative and well-written anime.

I don't know whether Art Spiegelman's Maus should be included... it technically gets classified as a "graphic novel," but there's some debate as to whether manga can be considered as falling within the same genre. But I thought we were talking about Japanese anime and manga, right?

Anyways, works don't have to be "highbrow" to be really enjoyable.

I don't understand the "I agree with IceCream" part. Are we having a disagreement or is there a particular point you're reiterating? I'm confused.

At any rate, I like the term 'sequential art', myself. I haven't heard any similarly cool terms for animation, but I guess 'animation' works well enough.

nest0r Wrote:I don't understand the "I agree with IceCream" part. [...]

I meant that I also haven't seen much anime or manga that I would consider "highbrow."

shirokuro Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:I don't understand the "I agree with IceCream" part. [...]

I meant that I also haven't seen much anime or manga that I would consider "highbrow."

Oh, is that what IceCream was saying? I thought that was a general 'haven't seen much anime/manga' statement. I've seen tonnes of manga and anime I consider 'high brow', or rather, stuff whose quality I deem very high and not dependent upon the medium so much as the story, art, etc. I'd even say most of my input in that regard. Then again, I'm selective and have made my filters instinctive over time, and I also consider 99% of all media to be rubbish, regardless of how venerated it is, academically or popularly.

@nest0r

I thought that was what IceCream was saying, though I might be wrong. I'm sure there's tons of excellent, extremely high-quality anime and manga out there. I just haven't really gotten much into either anime or manga yet, but have been meaning to.

Maybe we should start a highbrow anime and manga thread? I could use some recommendations. ^_^

shirokuro Wrote:@nest0r

I thought that was what IceCream was saying, though I might be wrong. I'm sure there's tons of excellent, extremely high-quality anime and manga out there. I just haven't really gotten much into either anime or manga yet, but have been meaning to.

Maybe we should start a highbrow anime and manga thread? I could use some recommendations. ^_^

I always recommend Legend of (the) Galactic Heroes, but no one ever listens. Best series ever. Best anime too.

http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?p...7#pid37867

@nest0r: Ah, thanks a lot. Will check those out.

shirokuro Wrote:@nest0r: Ah, thanks a lot. Will check those out.

Per the order My Conquest is the Sea of Stars, followed by the eps 1-110, you can check out this series of videos of the former movie:

(or 3 direct links here)

Personally I'd just recommend nabbing the huge torrent file someplace. There's no licensed version and doesn't seem there ever will be, but you can buy the unsubbed Japanese DVDs for 2,000 US dollars. ;p

vosmiura Wrote:So are you looking for students? I've been looking for a conversation tutor in the area.

Oh no, no students for me yet I want to start doing tons of tutoring once I begin graduate school though I am tutoring the student I have now due to special conditions that are a little too private to mention on here.

Thank you everyone for your advice and discourse it's been helpful.

shirokuro Wrote:@nest0r

I thought that was what IceCream was saying, though I might be wrong. I'm sure there's tons of excellent, extremely high-quality anime and manga out there. I just haven't really gotten much into either anime or manga yet, but have been meaning to.

Maybe we should start a highbrow anime and manga thread? I could use some recommendations. ^_^

I thought Mind Game was pretty profound, it was kinda like the anime version of a Charlie Kauffman film. In general though, high brow anime is quite the elusive animal.

Haych Wrote:

shirokuro Wrote:@nest0r

I thought that was what IceCream was saying, though I might be wrong. I'm sure there's tons of excellent, extremely high-quality anime and manga out there. I just haven't really gotten much into either anime or manga yet, but have been meaning to.

Maybe we should start a highbrow anime and manga thread? I could use some recommendations. ^_^

I thought Mind Game was pretty profound, it was kinda like the anime version of a Charlie Kauffman film. In general though, high brow anime is quite the elusive animal.

For you it's elusive, you mean. ;p

Haych Wrote:

shirokuro Wrote:@nest0r

I thought that was what IceCream was saying, though I might be wrong. I'm sure there's tons of excellent, extremely high-quality anime and manga out there. I just haven't really gotten much into either anime or manga yet, but have been meaning to.

Maybe we should start a highbrow anime and manga thread? I could use some recommendations. ^_^

I thought Mind Game was pretty profound, it was kinda like the anime version of a Charlie Kauffman film. In general though, high brow anime is quite the elusive animal.

Oooh cool, thanks, I'll check it out.

I used http://www.nihongoresources.com//media/flash/kana.swf as a flash card program for the Kana. You can turn off the ones you don't want to learn and I just went right to left, getting faster and faster... learning them is one thing, maintaining that memory is another. I did it in about a week for each, while doing it in my limited spare time. I wish I could be a full-time student like some of you here!

Actually, http://www.nihongoresources.com is a pretty good site that is often overlooked.

As for Kana tricks... a few that helped me differentiate some:
き looks like a key.
ウlooks like "Usagi" ears on top. Bucktooth on the left.
さち read in order is "Sachi", a common name. Also looks like eyes and eyebrows.
ツシ
ツ tsunami. the two marks are people. standing up. The Wave is coming in ( toward the people )
シ 死 shinu (death). The two marks are lying down, dead, and the wave has receded.

Japanese people always get a kick out of that last one.

Anyone who watches anime, probably knows "死ね！"

atomiton Wrote:As for Kana tricks... a few that helped me differentiate some:
き looks like a key.
ウlooks like "Usagi" ears on top. Bucktooth on the left.
さち read in order is "Sachi", a common name. Also looks like eyes and eyebrows.
ツシ
ツ tsunami. the two marks are people. standing up. The Wave is coming in ( toward the people )
シ 死 shinu (death). The two marks are lying down, dead, and the wave has receded.

Japanese people always get a kick out of that last one.

Anyone who watches anime, probably knows "死ね！"

Good tips; you should write that down in a book, and call it something like..hmmm..how about...'Remembering the Kana'

nest0r Wrote:I always recommend Legend of (the) Galactic Heroes, but no one ever listens. Best series ever. Best anime too.

I've been wanting to watch that for so many years but it's huge and also I couldn't find it at the time.

Edit: actually it's only 110 episodes, I thought there was a lot more than that, I don't know why.

Hah! I already knew the き one, but the one for ツ and シ is funny.

Codexus Wrote:

nest0r Wrote:I always recommend Legend of (the) Galactic Heroes, but no one ever listens. Best series ever. Best anime too.

I've been wanting to watch that for so many years but it's huge and also I couldn't find it at the time.

Edit: actually it's only 110 episodes, I thought there was a lot more than that, I don't know why.

Yes, it's odd, I still think of it as 'huge' even compared to anime that has hundreds of episodes, but really it's just the first movie and the 110 episodes (the other stuff, a retelling and prequel work, came after and can be ignored for a while/forever).

I think it's just that there's no filler and the storylines are so 'epic'. Technically it's an OVA series rather than regular anime, apparently, so it gets billed as longest/most expensive OAV series or something like that.