I was looking over Genki II today (which I bought, never got round to using, and had already mostly surpassed before I even looked at properly) and it says that when using the potential form of verbs that usually use を、 が OR を can be used.

However, here, Tae Kim's guide states quite strongly only が can be used. http://www.guidetojapanese.org/potential.html One of these must be wrong.... which one's right?

Nevermind, remembered to look in BJG which explained things perfectly. Tae Kim just threw me by saying that potential was never used with を. ><

dizmox Wrote:I was looking over Genki II today (which I bought, never got round to using, and had already mostly surpassed before I even looked at properly) and it says that when using the potential form of verbs that usually use を、 が OR を can be used.

However, here, Tae Kim's guide states quite strongly only が can be used. http://www.guidetojapanese.org/potential.html One of these must be wrong.... which one's right?

It's a mistake in Tae Kim's guide. Someone has already noted that here: http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum/vie...hp?id=2073

How does BJG explain it? From what I remember from my classes years ago, を is technically incorrect but it's used so often by natives that it has become accepted.

EDIT: It seems that the point in that forum thread is that intransitive verbs need to use wo instead of ga since ga makes it seem like the object is the subject. HOWEVER, this would ONLY apply to a really unusual case where wo can be used with intransitive verbs, which is only when it comes to locations.

Example:
山を登る
部屋を出る

Though in such cases, に and から makes more sense to use.

Tobberoth Wrote:EDIT: It seems that the point in that forum thread is that intransitive verbs need to use wo instead of ga since ga makes it seem like the object is the subject.

No, this is about potential ("can do") like hajimerareru rather than intransitive ("is done") verbs like hajimaru.

Ben Bullock Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:EDIT: It seems that the point in that forum thread is that intransitive verbs need to use wo instead of ga since ga makes it seem like the object is the subject.

No, this is about potential ("can do") like hajimerareru rather than intransitive ("is done") verbs like hajimaru.

Obviously when they are in potential form. Didn't you read the rest of my post?

This is the post I was referring to in the thread:
"I should have remembered before this. Your choice of に is the correct one. 登る being intransitive, it can't take an object, so を can't be used."

He's incorrect, but he's correct in that 登る being intransitive makes a difference.

Remember, something being in potential form doesn't change the fact that it's intransitive or transitive. Potential is just a form of a verb, transitive and intransitive are verb categories.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Ben Bullock Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:EDIT: It seems that the point in that forum thread is that intransitive verbs need to use wo instead of ga since ga makes it seem like the object is the subject.

No, this is about potential ("can do") like hajimerareru rather than intransitive ("is done") verbs like hajimaru.

Obviously when they are in potential form. Didn't you read the rest of my post?

Yes, I read it. But even re-reading it now I'm not sure what you mean. You're not making yourself clear at all.

Ben Bullock Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:

Ben Bullock Wrote:No, this is about potential ("can do") like hajimerareru rather than intransitive ("is done") verbs like hajimaru.

Obviously when they are in potential form. Didn't you read the rest of my post?

Yes, I read it. But even re-reading it now I'm not sure what you mean. You're not making yourself clear at all.

Then I'll do it again, hopefully clearer this time:
The reason why the usage of が sounds incorrect with 登れる is because it's put after the object, I think. Since 登る is intransitive, this sounds odd because が marks who/what is doing the verb. The same is true with transitive verbs, but since potential is a form of passive, it works well in that case. 日本語が話せる doesn't sound like Japanese is what is talking.

So one could say "Well, the object is followed by が when it comes to transitive verbs, so why should it be different with intransitive verbs?". Not that I know, but my guess is that it's so very uncommon to have an object with an intransitive verb, that it simply doesn't feel right to put が after it even when the intransitive verb is in potential form.

If someone can think of any transitive verb where が sounds wrong with potential form, please post it since that would break my cute theory.

山を登る and 山に登る are both possible; google returns 4x as many hits for を as に but they might mean different things.

As tobberoth said, を is used with intransitives pretty much only with certain movement verbs. In addition to the 部屋を出る, there's also 公園を行く, 角を曲がる, 空を飛ぶ, 道を急ぐ, and surely others. Also it's not a matter of one or the other making more sense; 空に飛ぶ means "fly to the sky" and 空を飛ぶ means "fly in the sky"; 公園を行く is movement through the park whereas 公園に行く is movement to the park. I don't know about the 登る case, though.

There's also the use with ところを, where you have something like お忙しいところをおいでいただき恐縮です (from Koujien), but I believe this is kind of a holdover from classical Japanese where を had a wider scope of usage than it does now.

yudantaiteki Wrote:山を登る and 山に登る are both possible; google returns 4x as many hits for を as に but they might mean different things.

OK, but note that the original question was about the following:

dizmox Wrote:when using the potential form of verbs that usually use を、 が OR を can be used.

There were two errors in Tae Kim's guide, first of all stating that を can't be used with potentials, and second using 登る in the example. I thought that both of these issues had been dealt with quite clearly by the post by "Osaka_Joe", who seems to be a native speaker of Japanese:

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum/vie...629#p21629

After my post was a quote by Tobberoth like this:

Tobberoth Wrote:How does BJG explain it? From what I remember from my classes years ago, を is technically incorrect but it's used so often by natives that it has become accepted.

which doesn't make sense, since the quoted forum thread states that, in the context of potentials, を is not incorrect, technically or otherwise. Tobberoth then starts discussing intransitive verbs, without bothering to explain why, then becomes rather short with me when I try to point out that the discussion is about potential verbs:

Tobberoth Wrote:Obviously when they are in potential form. Didn't you read the rest of my post?

Apparently I'm supposed to be able to guess Tobberoth's train of thought without any context, or something.

Ben Bullock Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:山を登る and 山に登る are both possible; google returns 4x as many hits for を as に but they might mean different things.

OK, but note that the original question was about the following:

dizmox Wrote:when using the potential form of verbs that usually use を、 が OR を can be used.

There were two errors in Tae Kim's guide, first of all stating that を can't be used with potentials, and second using 登る in the example. I thought that both of these issues had been dealt with quite clearly by the post by "Osaka_Joe", who seems to be a native speaker of Japanese:

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/forum/vie...629#p21629

After my post was a quote by Tobberoth like this:

Tobberoth Wrote:How does BJG explain it? From what I remember from my classes years ago, を is technically incorrect but it's used so often by natives that it has become accepted.

which doesn't make sense, since the quoted forum thread states that, in the context of potentials, を is not incorrect, technically or otherwise. Tobberoth then starts discussing intransitive verbs, without bothering to explain why, then becomes rather short with me when I try to point out that the discussion is about potential verbs:

Tobberoth Wrote:Obviously when they are in potential form. Didn't you read the rest of my post?

Apparently I'm supposed to be able to guess Tobberoth's train of thought without any context, or something.

The context was that the whole thread is about potential, both this thread and that thread, so I thought everyone would automatically realize that my discussion pertained to that.

Ben Bullock Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:How does BJG explain it? From what I remember from my classes years ago, を is technically incorrect but it's used so often by natives that it has become accepted.

which doesn't make sense, since the quoted forum thread states that, in the context of potentials, を is not incorrect, technically or otherwise.

How does that not make sense (and why are you using another forum thread as if it's an academic document)? At one point を was considered absolutely incorrect, but it's used so often colloquially nowadays that it's on the verge of being accepted completely. English has plenty of grammar rules that used to be adhered to very strictly, but now they're not anymore and are even now considered standard. Yet, they'll always be some a-holes around arguing that things like split infinitives are, in fact, technically incorrect.

Anyway, my first and 2nd Japanese teacher considered を correct, and my 3rd and 4rth didn't (all were native speakers).

Tzadeck Wrote:

Ben Bullock Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:How does BJG explain it? From what I remember from my classes years ago, を is technically incorrect but it's used so often by natives that it has become accepted.

which doesn't make sense, since the quoted forum thread states that, in the context of potentials, を is not incorrect, technically or otherwise.

How does that not make sense (and why are you using another forum thread as if it's an academic document)? At one point を was considered absolutely incorrect, but it's used so often colloquially nowadays that it's on the verge of being accepted completely. English has plenty of grammar rules that used to be adhered to very strictly, but now they're not anymore and are even now considered standard. Yet, they'll always be some a-holes around arguing that things like split infinitives are, in fact, technically incorrect.

Anyway, my first and 2nd Japanese teacher considered を correct, and my 3rd and 4rth didn't (all were native speakers).

It's like dropping the ら in potential form of ichidan verbs. It's technically incorrect but pretty much all young Japanese people do it. My teachers in Japan (all natives of course) all told us not to do it though and we lost points on tests if we did.

It's also true with 全然 being used with non-negative sentences. It's incorrect and will be marked as such by teachers, but young natives do it all the time. "全然平気だよ！"

"Incorrect" is always a matter of perspective. Nothing in language can ever be objectively, 100% "incorrect", things can only be incorrect from the standpoint of a particular usage manual, or a particular native speaker (or groups of them). Of course in certain circumstances (learning a language, for example) you need guidelines and you need for things to be labeled as "incorrect", but there's no such thing as "technically incorrect" as some sort of objective criteria that is set in stone. For disputed usage, it's much more helpful to just describe patterns and area of usage than to use terms like "incorrect".

Essentially what I'm trying to say is that either statement, "を is incorrect with potentials" or "を is correct with potentials" can be true depending on exactly what you mean by "correct" and "incorrect". I don't think you are disagreeing on how を is actually used with potentials, just on how to label the usage.

Here's part of the Koujien entry for を:
対象を示す。現代語では、他動的意味の動詞と対応して目的格的な動きをするが、奈良・平安時代には自動的意味の動詞や形容詞の前でも使われた。心情・可能の対象を示す「を」は、古くは「が」が一般的であったが、現代語では「人を好き」「故郷を恋しい」「字を書ける」など、「を」を広く使われる。