JimmySeal Wrote:Nonetheless, given the vast difference in grammar and ways of expressing things, there's no denying that translators have to make sacrifices in fidelity and naturalness translating in either direction.
The slight differences in usage can compound themselves over time and give you a false sense of how natural Japanese sentences and paragraphs are structured.
(...)
I'm a strong advocate of reading translations of English YA novels in foreign languages. The stories are familiar, and I think that Harry Potter and Lemony Snicket are some of the best YA literature available in any language (of course, I'm not really an authority on the latter part). Still I think it is important to "cut the umbilical cord" as soon as you are able, and that's probably quite a bit sooner than you think

That's a fair point. Obviously something is lost in translation. When we previously had this conversation on the forum I learned that contrary to some other translating customs, Japanese translators would strive more towards fidelity than naturalness. It's this aspect I'd like to better understand, or even if this is still true. I don't deny there may be differences brought on by the translation process, but I want to understand the magnitude, in general (out of curiosity) and in the case of Harry Potter.

There is then the question of the consequences on one's language. I still think this is not clear-cut. Consider the possible variations of style between the native writers in a given language. Camus is not Proust and Proust is not Gracq. Or Hemingway, Woolf, Pynchon, Chandler... I think the variation in style between translations and non-translations is probably not greater than the variation in style between individual writers. So the key is probably to read with enough variety, which goes back to "cutting the umbilical cord" as you say. I intend to do that, but since I enjoy the HP books I will probably read them all to know how it ends.

All in all I was mostly arguing against a simplistic "reading Harry Potter = speak bad Japanese" message for which I see no strong supporting evidence.

I've put up a shared deck with the vocabulary for books 1 & 2 on the anki website:

As noted in the description it may also include some vocabulary for "kami no shizuku", a manga about wine (fun but stretched out, I've only read the first 4 or 5 volumes and I'm getting a bit bored).

I guess the usual caveats of home-made decks apply: I made this for my personal use, so it may not suit other people's needs. I also included a lot but not all of the vocabulary; it might be a good idea to suspend some of the rare items or those you already know. And of course there are probably some mistakes, though it is mostly done by copy-paste, so the only probable source of mistakes is the furigana: Anki will not always guess the correct ones, and I will correct them when I know they are wrong, but I'm sure that some errors slipped through. I did ask a native speaker for help on several occasions where I was unsure.

If for some reason someone cannot access the deck with anki please send me a message, I can send it by email or upload it somewhere else. Also please send me a note if you find any mistakes.

Enjoy!

nyquil Wrote:I've put up a shared deck with the vocabulary for books 1 & 2 on the anki website:

As noted in the description it may also include some vocabulary for "kami no shizuku", a manga about wine (fun but stretched out, I've only read the first 4 or 5 volumes and I'm getting a bit bored).

I guess the usual caveats of home-made decks apply: I made this for my personal use, so it may not suit other people's needs. I also included a lot but not all of the vocabulary; it might be a good idea to suspend some of the rare items or those you already know. And of course there are probably some mistakes, though it is mostly done by copy-paste, so the only probable source of mistakes is the furigana: Anki will not always guess the correct ones, and I will correct them when I know they are wrong, but I'm sure that some errors slipped through. I did ask a native speaker for help on several occasions where I was unsure.

If for some reason someone cannot access the deck with anki please send me a message, I can send it by email or upload it somewhere else. Also please send me a note if you find any mistakes.

Enjoy!

Awesome! Thank you!

nyquil Wrote:I think the variation in style between translations and non-translations is probably not greater than the variation in style between individual writers.

Maybe. There is a clear difference though: native writers write in a natural language. Therefor, no matter how much they differ internally, there's no problem. While an interesting comparison, it doesn't help with the actual problem at all.

Tobberoth Wrote:Maybe. There is a clear difference though: native writers write in a natural language. Therefor, no matter how much they differ internally, there's no problem. While an interesting comparison, it doesn't help with the actual problem at all.

Translators are native writers. Whether they translate foreign material into natural language or intentionally keep a foreign feeling (translationese) is the point of this whole discussion. Jarvik7 provided a link to an interesting study and I've explained what are, in my opinion, the limits of its conclusions, especially as far as the Harry Potter series is concerned. You seem absolutely convinced that translations are unnatural and you say it on the forum, which is nice, but it would be nicer if you could share some of the elements which gave you this certainty. Once again, I'd be happy to read more about this issue or see some examples from translated books.

As for my point about style variations between authors, it was a (small) comment on the possibility raised that after reading HP one will speak "bad Japanese", where "bad" means unnatural (unless one believes that translations have more grammatical errors). In that case, reading older novels with archaic words or obsolete constructions will make you speak unnatural, therefore bad, Japanese, and it should come with a similar warning (*). I was extending this idea to style. Taking an extreme example, do you think that "Finnegans Wake" is written in natural English? Are you sure that no matter how much it differs, there's no problem? That it's more natural than a translation?
It was simply a comment, not a huge point. As I said in my previous post, I was mostly using it to argue against what is IMO a simplistic message.


(*) I've heard it said that the HP series contains a lot of archaic words. And it's a translation! It's a twofer for speaking bad Japanese later on!

nyquil Wrote:(*) I've heard it said that the HP series contains a lot of archaic words. And it's a translation! It's a twofer for speaking bad Japanese later on!

Magic stories in English tend to include a lot of archaic words as well, so that's a pretty good translation, I'd say. The caution there is not to learn from stories that include archaic words, rather than worrying about translations.

Is there something bad about archaic words? D:

QuackingShoe Wrote:Is there something bad about archaic words? D:

Yes. You sound like a freak when you use them in regular conversation. In a country that sets such high standards for fitting in, that would make you stick out like a sore thumb.

I thought being white was what would make me stick out!

Now I know better?

QuackingShoe Wrote:I thought being white was what would make me stick out!

Now I know better?

Yes, because talking like a freak couldn't possibly make your more distasteful to them than just being white.

If you obey the customs and sound like them, I'm sure they can overlook the fact that the sunglare off your skin is blinding.

If you sound like a freak and they feel like you just jumped out of a badly dubbed movie, it's going to be a lot harder to talk to them.

You said stand out, not make me 'distasteful'. I'm not really arguing your point, I just thought the remark that speech patterns would make you stand out in a racially homogeneous country was a bit silly.

Actually, hilarious.

QuackingShoe Wrote:You said stand out, not make me 'distasteful'. I'm not really arguing your point, I just thought the remark that speech patterns would make you stand out in a racially homogeneous country was a bit silly.

Actually, hilarious.

What makes you 'stand out' is that you are distasteful. You get on their nerves. Being white is minor compared to making them think you are a weirdo.

Does it change if I weigh, like, 500 pounds? Or if I'm 6'5? Not in the distasteful, just in the stand out area. Does being 6'5 make me stand out more or less than being distasteful due to word choice? What's the ranking order? Where do tattoos or cosplaying in non-sanctioned areas fit in? I need to know for future reference!

The use of esoteric vocabulary makes one a freak, hmm?

Language is the single most important aspect of culture, as it's the tool through which cultural transmission occurs. The functin of language is not merely the manifestation of ideas, but the looking-glass through which our realities are both perceived and shaped. This can be seen in many of the paradigms of linguistic anthropology.

In more practical use, a higher control and knowledge of words by extension allows one to evince more precise thoughts. Many of these words that you consider to make someone distasteful, simply have no precise equivalents that are more common, and so they are rendered a necessity for channeling whatever it is they represent. The removal of these words is genocide not on the word itself, but the idea it manifests, for the deletion of that word from the language, is a further removal of the idea itself from the minds of those who speak the language.

To put it simply: the dumbing down of language is the shackling of consciousness itself. How is one to wield abstractions or nuances without the vocabulary that contains those ideas?

I will put it into a more concrete example, of colors. I'll have to use Japanese for this, because my vocabulary of English colors isn't that high, and I don't know the equivalent English words.
櫻色 is not the same as 珊瑚色 is not the same 桃花色 is not the same as 躑躅色.
They all represent different shades on a similar spectrum of pink, each word pinpointing a specific hue. These words exist to create precise imagery. If I used 躑躅色 it invokes a different image in the reader's mind than 珊瑚色, etc.

Other words are the same way, evoking more precise ideas through the language. Words for emotions, for example: there exist an insane amount of vocabulary for human emotions, simply because of all the different shades that can be created from the primary emotions. There might exist fifty different words all under the heading of 'sorrow' because each of those words depicts a specific form of sorrow, be it the cause, its symptoms, nature, etc.

To be limited to the use of simple, popular vocabulary would be like handing a painter a huge paintbrush and a single color; what he's able to manifest would allow for nearly as much precision of color, technique, style, imagery, as if he were handed every color and tool imaginable. It is the same principle with language; he who controls only the mundane can only invoke the mundane.

The trick is to find a middle-ground; language cannot convey ideas if it cannot be comprehended. A paragraph may contain extremely vivid, precise prose, but if not a single word is known to the reader, the writer has failed to evince his ideas. In those cases, one must settle for simplicity and more blunt vocabulary, due to the linguistic ignorance (I don't mean that rudely) of the reader. However, the choice use of words can have an incredible impact, and one should in no way avoid using 'arcane words' simply due to the fact that many people are ignorant of them.

To refer back to my color example, it's most likely best to use 櫻色, because that will at least convey the general idea of pink, where as using 躑躅色 might simply give the reader a blank image, due to them not knowing the term. Better to settle for a dumbed down rendering than no rendering at all.

In conclusion: the overuse of archaic words in the wrong company is pointless simply because it contradicts the entire purpose of language. However, to avoid it all together in hopes of fitting in with those who are less educated and aware of language, is ridiculous. If you feel like you have to dumb yourself down just to fit in, then you're in the wrong company. And likewise, if someone considers you a 'freak' simply because they don't understand you well due to their own ignorance, then I wouldn't consider their opinion worth dung in the first place.

Aijin Wrote:The use of esoteric vocabulary makes one a freak, hmm?

Shouldst thou talkest thusly, thine friends wouldst think thee a freak.

That's what I'm talking about. Go talk to your friends like that for a week and see if they don't decide to just avoid you.

And for the record, not 'esoteric'. 'Archaic'.

Well I was mostly joking about the archaic words in Harry Potter.

Aijin Wrote:In conclusion: the overuse of archaic words in the wrong company is pointless simply because it contradicts the entire purpose of language. However, to avoid it all together in hopes of fitting in with those who are less educated and aware of language, is ridiculous. If you feel like you have to dumb yourself down just to fit in, then you're in the wrong company. And likewise, if someone considers you a 'freak' simply because they don't understand you well due to their own ignorance, then I wouldn't consider their opinion worth dung in the first place.

Aijin, interesting post. I think one of the advantages of the archaic words in a novel like Harry Potter is that they are not too hard to learn or get used to in this context, which could make it easier later to read older literature. As for the use of these words themselves, at a (much much) higher level of proficiency than mine, I think it is nice to have a good command of rarer/older words. They can be used, as you say, for subtle differences in meaning, but also for humor or emphasis. But this level of usage is proably not what wccrawford had in mind.



On a different subject, to wccrawford or anyone intending to use the deck I posted:
I'm going to start inputing vocabulary for HP3. If there is some (not too time-consuming to input) extra information or different structure you'd like to see in the deck please tell me.

wccrawford Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:The use of esoteric vocabulary makes one a freak, hmm?

Shouldst thou talkest thusly, thine friends wouldst think thee a freak.

That's what I'm talking about. Go talk to your friends like that for a week and see if they don't decide to just avoid you.

And for the record, not 'esoteric'. 'Archaic'.

Well we seem to be getting off topic, unless every sentence in the HP translations makes the characters speak like old 侍. And if it does, then where can I find a copy, because that sounds awesome.

wccrawford Wrote:Shouldst thou talkest thusly, thine friends wouldst think thee a freak.

That's what I'm talking about. Go talk to your friends like that for a week and see if they don't decide to just avoid you.

That analogy isn't relevant at all to a modern novel like Harry Potter. Of course you can't go around speaking like Shakespeare or Chaucer in English, just as you can't go around speaking 中古日本語 in Japan.

I'd love some examples of any 'archaic' words in the Japanese translations of the Harry Potter series. I haven't read them myself, but I am extremely sceptical of anything but very basic vocabulary being in children's literature :\ If I head into San Francisco this weekend I'll drop by Kinokuniya and pick up a few of the novels and read them to see if there's any basis for this.

Even if there were a few uncommon words to fit the setting of the novels, how is that a bad thing exactly? If someone has enough command of Japanese to read a novel, even if it's a simple one like Harry Potter, then they're going to be able to distinguish between the archaic.

Besides, keep in mind that if you only read things that have words used in basic daily conversation, you're going to be illiterate. You have to get used to vocabulary that fits different themes. Research papers, newspaper articles, manga, popular novels, serious literature, classics; they all have very different feels to them. To truly know a language you have to be comfortable in the different spheres of that language.

Aijin Wrote:

wccrawford Wrote:Shouldst thou talkest thusly, thine friends wouldst think thee a freak.

That's what I'm talking about. Go talk to your friends like that for a week and see if they don't decide to just avoid you.

That analogy isn't relevant at all to a modern novel like Harry Potter. Of course you can't go around speaking like Shakespeare or Chaucer in English, just as you can't go around speaking 中古日本語 in Japan.

I never said it was. Someone said HP had archaic words, and someone said they didn't see how learning archaic words could matter. I answered.

I know this is an old thread, however


Having read the books now. Well, finishing ハリー・ポッターと死の秘宝.

Its pretty normal japanese. Look, if you're at the level that you can read these books without straining yourself for hours, you're good enough to know that certain phrases or vocabulary dont blend with the way you or your friends talk, or how words that deal with castles, wizards, wands, lore, etc aren't suitable for your everyday conversations.


Its one book, or at most 7 books. Think about it. Are your own speech patterns wildly influenced by a mere handful of books you read sometime in your life?
Does anyone actually think students study these novels word for word and only use that as their springboard for learning.

** REQUEST FOR HARRY POTTER IN JAPANESE TEXT DOCUMENT OR WHERE ONE CAN FIND IT **

Everyone,

Hello! My name is Hollis. I was going through the forum posts that you all here and saw that Ahibba had sent an email to Fightswumbrellas with a “compressed file containing the 7 novels of Harry Potter in Japanese (in text files, txt.).” So, I was wondering if anyone might be able to email me the files that Ahibba sent to Fightswumbrellas (or to any of you). I would really appreciate it!

My email address can be found by clicking "email" under my username to the left of this post.

Please write “Harry Potter in Japanese Text Document” in the title of the email so that I can guarantee it does not go into my junk email folder since probably non of you are listed as one of my email contacts.

I appreciate your help! I have begun the adventure of reading Harry Potter in Japanese now (they are just slightly above my level – I can understand most everything but not ALL the details) and such a text document (or PDF) of the books in Japanese would be so super beneficial for analytical study! I already own most of the books as actual hardback books in Japanese (I live in Japan, and so I bought them from the used bookstore).

I have searched and searched the internet for such a text (or PDF) file of the book in Japanese, but cannot seem to find it. So, any help that you can provide (whether it be the actual file, or just where to find such a file of the Harry Potter books in Japanese on the net via download) would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for your help!

Here’s what Ahibba wrote on the “Reviewing the Kanji Forum” back in December of 2009 under the forum title of “Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone - Page 1 Vocabulary (Anki Deck)” above as a reference: “Fightswumbrellas, check your email. I sent you a compressed file contains the 7 novels of Harry Potter in Japanese (in text files, txt.)” POST DATE/TIME: Reply #12 - 2009 December 28, 12:22 pm

Again, thank you! I look forward to your emails with either the actual Harry Potter Japanese Novels 1-7 Text Document or just some information on where I can download it from.

Thanks, everyone!!!



Hollis