Math is a very different beast than economics and engineering though. I don't even see how you could write a thesis of over a hundred pages in Math, it's not like you would go do a math project at a company and write a thesis about it. That is often what you do in economics and engineering though. If you're doing a project, maybe for a company, just the introduction explaining what you did and for who could be over 10 pages long. And in such a situation, the amount of pages written may very well be comparable to the time invested in said project.

Not to say that it would be impossible to write an awesome thesis in 6 pages in engineering and economics. But I would find it unlikely and it's definitely not something you come across when looking around academic resources.

Meanwhile, because Japan won't recognize medical licenses from other countries (America is the same though), I am studying to try to go for an advanced degree in nursing here. Reading Japanese nursing books, it's easy to see that the content at least is close to identical to American nursing, but I wonder how tough actual nursing (and other medical) college work is in Japan.

Anyone know anything about this area?

I'm not sure how a mathematics thesis paper would work either... At my school in the US we generally didn't have to write too much. It was mostly small papers for physics, chemistry, etc type classes (5-15 pages?). For how broad the subjects, labs, etc. were, it was really a joke.

I had a very bad experience in the US overall in the upper education system. I'm pretty sure almost all of it is my fault, because I was going about it the wrong way. I had a really high expectation going in my first year, but found it to be too easy. I ended up spending my first two years with a less than 20% attendance rate doing only the assignments that were required to pass the class, and acing finals. I also took almost no "general education" classes, so come 3rd year I saw I had to take lots of English, foreign language, and classes in various other subjects such as economics, business, etc.

I felt I had learned absolutely nothing, and over half of my remaining classes were "general education". While the subjects are interesting to me, what can you possibly learn in 2-3 classes of subjects as broad as economics or a foreign language?

Looking back I should have picked a different field of study, instead of a major I could pass the first two years without doing more than a review. On the bright side I came to realize the road traveled is more important than the end goal (the degree). I learned more from playing WoW and programming add-ons, having Linux become a major hobby, and working a little as a programmer.

I honestly have almost no plan. I was going to apply to a new school as a physics major in the US, and "start over". I figured if I'm going to start over I'll go overseas, because all my foreign friends seemed to be having the experience of a lifetime. On paper I'm farthest in mathematics, but in reality I've only taken undergraduate mathematics classes, and I only took them for the easy credits and GPA. Mathematics is just so broad and deep of a subject, so in reality I only know the very basics. Physics was always the most interesting to me, and I always had the most fun studying/reading physics. That's the extent of my reasons for picking Physics.

I figure an American who knows Japanese and studied physics (Graduate, and maybe more?), with programming experience has to be able to fit somewhere!

Btw, Did anybody else experience anything like this in the US?

magamo Wrote:I think less than 10% of graduates who got Ph.D.s in the field can find jobs in universities and other research institutes. Mathematics and physics in general are a close second in this regard, but theoretical physics is extreme. I heard less than 20% of graduates who got Ph.D.s in Physics from University of Tokyo could find jobs in academia. If you're interested in theoretical physics, things are worse so I think you should choose the best of the best grad school.

I had no idea things were that grim here. It's generally the same in the US too, as you mentioned, so I'm not really surprised. Do you know what they generally do after getting their PhD, but not being able to find jobs in research?

Grinkers Wrote:I had no idea things were that grim here. It's generally the same in the US too, as you mentioned, so I'm not really surprised. Do you know what they generally do after getting their PhD, but not being able to find jobs in research?

I don't know much about career paths of theoretical physics students, but in mathematics, it seems teachers in some kind of school, programmers, and other math related jobs in companies are popular non-research jobs. Also, some companies and research institutes hire mathematicians as researchers. So there are non-academic research jobs especially for applied mathematicians, though they're rare.

I guess it's rare for an American to go to Japan to obtain a Ph.D. in math or physics, but I know this Chinese guy who got a Ph.D. in math in Japan, worked as a postdoc in Canada, and got job offers in a non-math kind of research area from American and Japanese universities. He chose to be an associate professor in a Japanese university. His daughters end up speaking only Japanese, and his family is now applying for naturalization.

Anyway, from what I heard, it seems the typical Japanese who got a Ph.D. in theoretical physics works as a postdoc in a foreign country for at least a few years. I guess the US has the largest postdoc job market. By the time they publish 10+ papers in tops journals, they're semi-fluent in the local language, which is probably English. Language skills vary from person to person, but at least they can teach classes in his university and do job-related paperwork. I think better speakers can get by in virtually any situations in the language. They're of course computer literate and most likely have programming skills to some extent. Again their level of skills varies greatly, but it's not surprising if they have much better skills than your average computer literate. So if you were a Japanese guy who went to this path, after 3+ years of postdoc experience, you'd have:

Ph.D.,
research skills good enough to write lots of excellent papers,
good language skills in a foreign language,
good computer/programming skills,
probably a supporting spouse and a lovely kid.

With all these assets, you can probably find a job somewhere unless you're too picky. If you're lucky, you're a researcher working on what you're really interested in. You might have changed your interest and started working in a different research area. You might quit first class research at this point and start teaching in a non-research oriented institute/college. If you don't mind working in a foreign country and already reached fluency, you have a better chance of finding these kinds of jobs for obvious reasons. Some like teaching and become teachers in cram school etc in Japan. (You'd be surprised how many teachers in top cram schools in Japan have Ph.D. in physics...) I know a Japanese guy who has a Ph.D. in mathematics and became a programmer in a company at this stage, so there are various options depending on your skills and experience.

You can continue working as a postdoc as long as your research quality is great. But as you said, you can fit somewhere. So it's all up to you.

By the way, thought this was interesting: http://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/12/21/jap...g-over-us/ (I'm inclined to think MF's commentary makes sense)

I'm from the UK and considering doing a PhD in Math as well over in Tokyo or Kyoto, but that's still almost 3 years down the line (still got almost 2 years of undergraduate + masters here to do first, blegh). I guess by that time the language barrier other than my speaking shouldn't be much of a problem though. One of my tutors seems to have connections in Toudai, so that's handy when it comes to it.

I still have no clue what I want to specialise in though, nor what PhDs other than financial ones are useful in employment, though that's a worry for later. After that, any well-paying job relevant to my skills (in Japan if I'm not sick of it by then) is fine.

Lately Japanese seems to be distracting me from my degree so I need to cut down a little. ; ;

dizmox Wrote:I'm from the UK and considering doing a PhD in Math as well over in Tokyo or Kyoto, but that's still almost 3 years down the line (still got almost 2 years of undergraduate + masters here to do first, blegh). I guess by that time the language barrier other than my speaking shouldn't be much of a problem though. One of my tutors seems to have connections in Toudai, so that's handy when it comes to it.

I still have no clue what I want to specialise in though, nor what PhDs other than financial ones are useful in employment, though that's a worry for later. After that, any well-paying job relevant to my skills (in Japan if I'm not sick of it by then) is fine.

Lately Japanese seems to be distracting me from my degree so I need to cut down a little. ; ;

Oh, if you're planning on studying math as a Ph.D. candidate in Japan, you should definitely check JSPS (colloquially called 学振 (がくしん) in Japanese). They offer a scholarship for Ph.D. candidates in any kind of science department. It's about 200,000 yen per month (Google says it's about 1,370 pounds) + 1,000,000 yen (6,840 pounds) as a research grant each year until you get a Ph.D. It's very competitive so only top candidates can get it, but there is a trick when it comes to math.

Somehow many Japanese mathematicians, especially who work in traditional "pure" mathematics, think they should only publish excellent papers. Things are changing, but still a lot of guys have only a few papers at best when they get Ph.D.s. So when they start a Ph.D. program after masters, most of them have published no papers.

So if you have a couple papers under your belt when you finish your masters, it's almost certain that you can get the generous scholarship. It's ok they're not published in the most prestigious journals like Annals of Mathematics, Journal of AMS, etc. Decent specialized journals like "Journal of (insert a sub-field)" by a major academic publisher such as Elsevier and Springer are enough. Less prestigious journals might work.

My supervisor was a "publish or perish" kind of professor, so I was able to get the grant. You might not like the trick. But I kind of think it's too good to miss out on...

Magamo, As always, great and interesting posts!

I'm still a far away from all that, however it interests me heavily. I'm basically just taking things one step at a time currently. Enter a Japanese university, and finish my undergraduate (mostly for the Japanese language ability, immersion, and overall foreign experience). I really want to get into a grad school afterwards, if only to get a taste for the academic world. I can't even begin to comprehend what might happen after that...

However I have a question! As a mathematics/technical field major, how much Japanese and English did you use at the various stages of your education? Just casually looking at various schools in Japan, lots of them seem to have a very high level of English required at the graduate level. A lot of students at my university (language) prep school ask me for help for their grad school applications and papers, which is in full English!

It's of course not a problem for me, however I feel sorry for my Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese classmates who have to study Japanese AND English.

Which reminds me, I might have to take the TOIEC, even though I'm American! Has any other native speaker taken the test? I'm seriously scared to look at the test... imagine how pathetic it'd be if I had to study for it. It seems silly I'd have to take it, but it's a requirement on so many applications for universities.

Now I'm sitting here laughing at myself imagining myself coming to Japan, then studying for TOIEC and not the JLPT (which isn't a requirement).

I didn't know my thread would turn into such a serious discussion on schools. Interesting. I still want to study in Japan though, and hope I can. (By the way, props to all of you. Your intellect astounds me.)

That's useful information Magamo. Cambridge's maths master's course is a bit weird in that it's not really research, but classes at higher level to prepare for PhD study, so I'm not sure about the opportunities for publishing papers... but I'll see when I get there. :3

My tutor seemed to think I should be able to get a scholarship too at least.

Grinkers Wrote:Has any other native speaker taken the test? I'm seriously scared to look at the test... imagine how pathetic it'd be if I had to study for it. It seems silly I'd have to take it, but it's a requirement on so many applications for universities.

Now I'm sitting here laughing at myself imagining myself coming to Japan, then studying for TOIEC and not the JLPT (which isn't a requirement).

Trust me, TOIEC is not a problem for native-speakers... Although I've never heard of a case of it not being waived for a native speaker (never...), in the twilight-zone event that you DO have to take it, it's a no brainer for native speakers. Can you tell what to use in the following question?

Today, I went to the park and sat ____ a bench.

a.) to
b.) in
c.) on
d.) onward

If you didn't break into a serious sweat just now, then you'll be fine...

zohar Wrote:... it's a no brainer for native speakers. ...

Today, I went to the park and sat ____ a bench.

a.) to
b.) in
c.) on
d.) onward

Holy****

My brain froze for about 3 seconds after reading that. I then tried to figure out where the options for へ, に, and で were. I then decide to place へ in the sentence. Realizing the absurdity of what I just did, I decided the correct answer was actually に. I then realized the sentence was in English and that none of these particles (へにで) were correct. I then promptly choose C as the correct answer.

Too much knee-hone-go @_@

zohar Wrote:Today, I went to the park and sat ____ a bench.

a.) to
b.) in
c.) on
d.) onward

If you didn't break into a serious sweat just now, then you'll be fine...

e) all of the above?

I had forgotten that the deeper people get into learning a new language, the more their brains get fried regarding the older one... Maybe it will be harder after all...

Yeah, just yesterday I thought I saw sa-ge and onion gravy in my kitchen cupboard...

=|

zohar Wrote:Today, I went to the park and sat ____ a bench.

a.) to
b.) in
c.) on
d.) onward

If you didn't break into a serious sweat just now, then you'll be fine...

Ummm maybe I'm the only retarded one but from where I come there are two valid answers to that question lol. Answers B and C work equally well.

You can sit both on and in something, at least here in Alabama.

Please go sit in that seat.
Please go sit on that seat.

For me 'in' only works with some nouns: so you can sit in or on a chair, you sit in an armchair or a pew, but you sit on a sofa or a bench. Google does turn up other people who think sitting in a bench is OK, though.

"I went to the park and sat in a bench"

This just sounds kind of weird. To sit "in" a chair sounds more natural, but to sit "in" a bench is just not something I can imagine someone saying.

pm215 Wrote:For me 'in' only works with some nouns: so you can sit in or on a chair, you sit in an armchair or a pew, but you sit on a sofa or a bench. Google does turn up other people who think sitting in a bench is OK, though.

For me I think it would simply depend on the type of bench. If it was just a flat board bench I would probably use "sit on the bench", but if it was an ergonomically correct bench with a curved seating area, back support and armrests I might use "sit in the bench". Basically if it is something that can kind of surround or fit to your body then "in" usually sounds just as natural, at least to me.

Another example to illustrate would be a large rock (maybe we are hiking up a mountain or something). If it was rock with a jagged/pointed top section I would most likely say "Please go sit on that rock for a second and wait for me". But if the rock had a bowl shaped indention at the top I might say "Please go sit in that rock for a second and wait for me".

zohar Wrote:Although I've never heard of a case of it not being waived for a native speaker (never...), in the twilight-zone event that you DO have to take it, it's a no brainer for native speakers.

I'll be entering a Japanese university not as an exchange or international student, so they all require it. I'll try to get it waved, and having an American citizenship (and proof I was born there) might help a lot. However I also have a Japanese name, face, etc.

I'm not really worried about passing the test at all. I doubt I could get 100%, but I'm sure I could get a passing score for the top level. It's more of a funny situation. Going all the way to Japan and having to take an English exam, but not a Japanese exam.

Realistically they don't have JLPT as a requirement because your Japanese level has to be above that level, and the English requirement isn't very high for obvious reasons.

Grinkers Wrote:Which reminds me, I might have to take the TOIEC, even though I'm American! Has any other native speaker taken the test? I'm seriously scared to look at the test... imagine how pathetic it'd be if I had to study for it. It seems silly I'd have to take it, but it's a requirement on so many applications for universities.

Now I'm sitting here laughing at myself imagining myself coming to Japan, then studying for TOIEC and not the JLPT (which isn't a requirement).

How can you be scared? Its really easy and only tests your practical skills (which I'm guessing aren't that bad ). Zero preparation and you will max it.
I did it yesterday and the only hard thing was being focused for 45 min during listening. I can't remember struggling/having doubts for even one question in reading section (karma will probably bite my ass for that statement).

Why you need to take this test is completely different matter

[Edit] Just noticed I did a little grave digging here. My bad. [/Edit]

From what I've seen of sample TOEIC questions, it's not even SAT level. If you are a college-educated native speaker you should be able to ace it drunk.

It turns out I have to visit each university I'm thinking of entering/transferring, because Americans are that rare. I'm in the process of visiting schools to talk to them and see what I really need, as the released requirements are for non-English speaking foreigners (and transferring info is almost non-existent in the recompiled books).

I'm guessing I won't have to take an English test, but even if I did, I'd be able to pass it easily. Since last posting here, I've looked at some sample problems and did them all without any problems. I think the hardest part really is concentrating on the test, because it's so easy. Even without concentration, I'm sure we (native English speakers) could get a top whatever grade they use.

It's sometimes weird, and not really used English, but it's still easy for us to do. I guess it's just like the JLPT1 for Japanese.

Grinkers Wrote:It turns out I have to visit each university I'm thinking of entering/transferring, because Americans are that rare. I'm in the process of visiting schools to talk to them and see what I really need, as the released requirements are for non-English speaking foreigners (and transferring info is almost non-existent in the recompiled books).

I'm guessing I won't have to take an English test, but even if I did, I'd be able to pass it easily. Since last posting here, I've looked at some sample problems and did them all without any problems. I think the hardest part really is concentrating on the test, because it's so easy. Even without concentration, I'm sure we (native English speakers) could get a top whatever grade they use.

It's sometimes weird, and not really used English, but it's still easy for us to do. I guess it's just like the JLPT1 for Japanese.

haha I agree. It's comparable to JLPT 1, japanese people would probably be able to breeze through those without much effort. It makes sense those, those tests don' really test for "fluency". And fluency itself is hard to measure and test. As everyone's defintion of fluency varies.