Are the mobile phones actually better in Japan? Doesn't seem that way to me. All my friends back home seem to be posting on Facebook on their Blackberries and other smartphones, while I"m using my silly little Japanese phone that can do many of the same things, but in a much clunkier inconvenient way. And my type of phone seems to be pretty standard. Also, my friend's aren't exactly accomplished business people, most of them have pretty crappy to mediocre jobs.

If you are really interested in Japan you will want to take the path that will allow you to do it in a successful/enjoyable manner. Rushing over there any way you can just so you can say you're in Japan is going to cause nothing but headaches and potentially spoil your entire experience. It could also potentially waste vast amounts of your time as a young adult and leave you high and dry both in Japan and back in America.

I say if you really love Japan then you should establish a really strong base that will serve you well no matter where you wind up in the future. IMO:

1. Get an American degree. It's worth more just about anywhere you might want to go in the future.

2. Work your way through school in order to get viable work experience. A college degree on it's own doesn't mean jack squat in today's world. Instead of getting a "normal" college job as a waiter, etc go and find something related to your field. Your best bet is to go find yourself some home office type business (accountants, lawyers, etc). These businesses are ALWAYS overlooked by college kids and most of them would love to have some computer literate person to help with stuff around the office. The advantage is that since they own the business they can make up any job title or "project" that you need to create an awesome resume for yourself. Imagine being able to say "Hey Mr. Bob, in my spare time I'm going to design a graphical program to help with record keeping of your legal documents. You don't have to use it or anything but I'd like the practice so I could put it in my portfolio." When it comes time to make your resume you now have "Designed graphical document filing interface for Bob's Law Office, Inc." instead of "Waited tables at Applebees".

3. Zero debt. This is the other purpose of working through school. Pay off as much of it as possible as quickly as possible.


Let Japan be the motivator to get all of your ducks in a row the right way. Sure it might take longer than you want but the reward will be greater.

vinniram Wrote:

Evil_Dragon Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:2. Japanese university is expensive AND bad in terms of education.

This.
If the impression I got while in Japan counts for anything, these kids learn Jack Shit. Scary considering how good my school's reputation is. University in Germany feels like it's in another ballpark altogether.

If the schools are so bad, how come there's so much innovation in Japan, in terms of technology of all kinds? robots, medical technology, mass transit, there's so much technology which is superior to western equivalents, even their mobile phones! how'd all that come about, if the kids learn nothing?

Because the top engineers in Japan went to grad school in America...

How does one go about comparing universities internationally? Is there something objective I can read on the subject? Esp. w/ regards to Japan's universities not comparing well? My curiosity's been piqued.

I think it's really more about the student than the school. Most of you all are learning Japanese by yourself, and out of the school system. You should know this better than anybody!

There's lots of idiots in every country, just like there's many smart people in every country. There's lots of good and bad schools in the US and Japan too. Also don't forget, even though the curriculum might be poor, it'll potentially be a great experience, especially for a westerner. Going to school as Japanese, and not an exchange student, was the biggest selling point for me to be doing this. Not to mention I was learning almost nothing in the US.

If you all wait 2 years I'll compare my US undergraduates with my Japanese undergraduate programs !

It's just a cultural fact in Japan that people view university life as a vacation and hardly anyone actually studies.

As far as university in Japan in concerned...The most important thing that matters is the entrance exam you passed to enter a top university. Once that is done half the students barely show up for class.

If you are the type of person that does bad on entrance exams and enters a mid level university in Japan but work your ass off in your studies...it will not make a difference on getting a job. That lazy kid who aced his entrance exam and got into Todai but almost failed out will always, always, be ahead of you.

Different academic culture.

If you can't get into a top 5 university in Japan you're much better going to a university back in the states.

Don't forget that university degrees from the US are highly valued in Japan.

I have Japanese friends who studied in US universities, and they felt the only thing they learned was English and got a more international perspective. Their actual education in the US has all been forgotten. I'm pretty sure this is pretty common for most people. How much of each class do they remember? Lots of people can't even remember which topics were covered!

Of course this all depends on the field of study too.

PS From what I've seen, I agree US schools are probably better. I'm just doing a little devil's advocate work here!

Top of 3d animation is in the US lately. And the most famous 3d artists are self taught.

I also think you'll find that the foreign 3D animators in Japan had built up their portfolios with years of work experience before trying to move out here. This is the case in most fields except for English teaching.

Take a look at this Nestor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ra...iversities

These are the so-called Shanghai rankings (which have been much criticized)

They have Tokyo University at rank 20, Kyoto University at rank 24, Osaka University at rank 71, Nagoya University at rank 82, Tohoku University at rank 84 for 2009.

Looked at this other ranking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE–QS_Worl...y_Rankings

* University of Tokyo, Tokyo (22)
* Kyoto University, Kyoto (25)
* Osaka University, Osaka (43=)

I'm not sure these mean much though.

Transparent_Aluminium Wrote:Take a look at this Nestor:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ra...iversities

These are the so-called Shanghai rankings (which have been much criticized)

They have Tokyo University at rank 20, Kyoto University at rank 24, Osaka University at rank 71, Nagoya University at rank 82, Tohoku University at rank 84 for 2009.

Looked at this other ranking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE–QS_Worl...y_Rankings

* University of Tokyo, Tokyo (22)
* Kyoto University, Kyoto (25)
* Osaka University, Osaka (43=)

I'm not sure these mean much though.

Also according to "Global University Ranking" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_University_Ranking

1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology, USA

2 California Institute of Technology, USA

3 University of Tokyo, Japan


These charts seem really ridiculous. I can find charts with Tokyo University at #3, and on some it's all the way down in the low 100s.

Of course the Russians will put the Russian University above Harvard. Hahaha.

Damn, this topic's too fascinating, must avoid researching comparative educational analyses... must study Japanese. Must study Japanese...

I was watching a program on keyhole tv and it showed Japan as ranked #10 for education in the world. Heck, for a couple of hundred countries coming 10th place has to suck huh? They're most prestiguous unis coming in around the 20's seems to match up with that. I'm sure if those kids actually went to class they could learn a hell of a lot. Perhaps people are comparing every uni to Harvard? Of course nothings going to measure up.

vinniram Wrote:If the schools are so bad, how come there's so much innovation in Japan, in terms of technology of all kinds? robots, medical technology, mass transit, there's so much technology which is superior to western equivalents, even their mobile phones! how'd all that come about, if the kids learn nothing?

University in Japan does not have quite that much to do with what you learn on the job.

Also, please don't give two shits about university rankings, people. There's just some things in this world that won't nicely fit into a chart. Universities worldwide and their underlying philosophies are way too different.

Grinkers Wrote:Also according to "Global University Ranking" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_University_Ranking

1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology, USA

2 California Institute of Technology, USA

3 University of Tokyo, Japan


These charts seem really ridiculous. I can find charts with Tokyo University at #3, and on some it's all the way down in the low 100s.

Yeah, this chart's are pretty silly. However, I've always considered MIT and Caltech to be the two best Universities in America, so putting them at the top is pretty cool. Lots of rankings you see about American schools put schools like Harvard and Princeton, or for undergraduate even military academies like West Point, at the very top. But it always seemed pretty absurd to me, since all the cool stuff is happening at places like MIT and Caltech. I mean, just look at how many people from Caltech got Nobel Prizes, even though it's a very small school. Even Carnegie Mellon blows away the Ivy Leagues on my own personal ranking.

Undergraduate education has little to do with grad school education, research level and whatnot. Some university ranking might take into account the quality of undergraduate education of each university, but I don't think it's the most important factor when they rank universities. If you're not interested in higher degrees, a "better" university only means you got a good GPA at high school, did well on the entrance exam or come from a rich family. It might look good on your resume though.

Anyway, no one expects much from undergraduate education. I think any developed countries are like that. Your Bachelor degree only means you're smart enough to get it and not a total weirdo; at least you appreciate common sense to some extent. What you have been taught through undergraduate programs doesn't matter much in many cases, I think. Who you are and what you have accomplished/learned are much more important. Universities ranked higher on some list probably have better facilities, larger libraries, famous professors, smarter students, etc. But if you don't take advantage of them, they mean little to nothing.

As for higher education and research level in Japan, Japanese universities are good in hard science and engineering in general. This is especially so in top grad schools. But most Japanese universities tend to suck at liberal arts and other less scientific disciplines for some reason. It's not that every Japanese researcher sucks in those fields, but I can't recommend Japan if you're planning on studying less scientific things unless it's Japanese literature or something.

Also, grad school education in Japan generally focuses on training students so they can be good researchers in academia. For example, if you're a math major, you don't need to take many classes and can do research/survey work with a supervisor from day one at grad school. This is great if you want to be a mathematician because you can focus on what you want to do; if you need classes to learn math, probably you shouldn't be a mathematician in the first place. This is also great if you want to be a scientist in a different field because it's the fastest way to get to the cutting-edge math you need for your research. But it's not the best method to learn advanced math as general knowledge.

magamo Wrote:Also, grad school education in Japan generally focuses on training students so they can be good researchers in academia. For example, if you're a math major, you don't need to take many classes and can do research/survey work with a supervisor from day one at grad school. This is great if you want to be a mathematician because you can focus on what you want to do; if you need classes to learn math, probably you shouldn't be a mathematician in the first place. This is also great if you want to be a scientist in a different field because it's the fastest way to get to the cutting-edge math you need for your research. But it's not the best method to learn advanced math as general knowledge.

That's exactly what I want to do in Japan, except I might make a small shift to physics. I decided to finish my undergraduate in Japan for the general experience, and the Japanese level, no so much for the educational curriculum.

I've heard the "Japan is good for science and engineering, but bad in liberal arts" a lot. Is that generally what most people feel in Japan? Generally speaking, how are non-science/engineering graduate schools in Japan?

I'm sure you mentioned it before, but what did you study, and where? I always love reading your posts!

Well, I have no experience myself, but according to all my Japanese friends, in Japan you enter a university by working your ass off, then you do nothing for several years until you have to write your final essay. However, even at a master level in economics, that essay is pathetically short compared to what we have to write for bachelor degrees in Sweden, especially in Engineering. Personally, my bachelor's essay was over 100 pages long. And that's just a bachelor, a Master would probably be even longer.

Personally I would love to study for my Master in Japan though, if I can get a scholarship. I don't think "level of education" is SUCH a big deal. The bonus of having been educated in two countries probably outweigh how one of the countries education system is valued.

I've ready a dozen of master's and doctor thesis from Sweden.
You guys write a lot of good thesis, but the size is not what matters, but the content.
50 pages is more than enough for a thesis with a lot of originality.

Is grad school in Japan any different from undergrad in Japan? Is it still considered a joke? Since some are saying that the humanities in Japan suck, would it make sense to go to a Japanese grad school for an M.A. on the MEXT scholarship for Japanese literature? Or would going to a US University and studying Japanese lit. there make more sense?

I'd be planning, of course, to return to the US and do my Ph.D. studies.

TheVinster Wrote:Unforeseeable Future That'll Never Happen --> Work for Square Enix.

This is an ambitious goal, but not an impossible one. At least you're not one of the poor souls who think that doing a degree in "game design" will make them the next Hideo Kojima...

There are some parallels with Japanese learning here. You should spend less time thinking about becoming a better animator, and more time making yourself a better animator.

Another important thing to note is that big companies like Square Enix do not hire novices or first-timers. The games industry of today is not like it was it the 80s and 90s. Just check an industry job site (e.g. gamesindustry.biz) and you'll soon come to realise that all the major companies will only hire people with a minimum of 3-5 years' industry experience.

If I was in your situation, I would:

- learn to animate (either at college or in your bedroom)
- establish a portfolio (maybe work on a couple of indie games)
- look for a job with a small North American developer
- after a few years, look for a job with a bigger North American developer
- after a few years, look for a job with a Japanese developer
- after a few years, look for a job with Square Enix

During this time, you can learn Japanese to a high level.

And of course, the most important thing: try to block out all the negativity from all the bitter people with no ambition who will try to bring you down.

Working for a Japanese company might not be as fun as you imagine. I remember reading something about being a game developer in Japan. Anyway, this looks relevant:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/15..._game_.php
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/200704...r_01.shtml

Working conditions in the game industry in North America don't have a very good reputation either.

^ Barnett's opinion on language learning is... interesting.

Don’t rely on self-study, a Japanese spouse or osmosis to learn the language. It absolutely requires the minimum effort of a language course.

:O

Grinkers Wrote:That's exactly what I want to do in Japan, except I might make a small shift to physics. I decided to finish my undergraduate in Japan for the general experience, and the Japanese level, no so much for the educational curriculum.

Are you thinking of being a theoretical physicist? It's the hardest discipline to survive in academia in Japan... I think less than 10% of graduates who got Ph.D.s in the field can find jobs in universities and other research institutes. Mathematics and physics in general are a close second in this regard, but theoretical physics is extreme. I heard less than 20% of graduates who got Ph.D.s in Physics from University of Tokyo could find jobs in academia. If you're interested in theoretical physics, things are worse so I think you should choose the best of the best grad school.

This isn't particularly a Japanese thing. Theoretical physics is extremely tough, and you must be hardcore to survive in academia regardless of whether you study it in Japan or the US. There are tons of good theoretical physicists in the world who failed to find research jobs in universities. Things are slightly better in mathematics, but either way, all I can say is good luck. I'm not trying to discourage you, but it's a really tough road.

Grinkers Wrote:I've heard the "Japan is good for science and engineering, but bad in liberal arts" a lot. Is that generally what most people feel in Japan? Generally speaking, how are non-science/engineering graduate schools in Japan?

Fields that are/are closely related to hard science are called 理系 (りけい), and other disciplines are called 文系 (ぶんけい). 理系 includes mathematics, physics, biology, engineering, medicine, etc., and typical 文系 fields are literature, history, law, politics, pedagogy, anthropology, etc. I don't know why, but economics is usually classified as 文系 in Japan. There are many first class researchers in 理系 in Japan including Nobel Prize winners, but there are fewer good researchers in 文系. I think this is partly because science and engineering are a lifeline for a country where natural resources are scarce and tourism is poor. Since the average level of researchers in 文系 is rather poor when compared with the US and other Western countries, its grad school education in Japan is also poorer in general.

As for the general perception of 理系 vs. 文系 in Japan, normal people don't care much about the difference in Japan's position in research and whatnot. You might see people say something along the line of "Are you a 文系 guy by any chance?" when someone posts a stupid comment on 2ch. Actually it's kind of a meme on the internet. But your average Japanese doesn't go to grad school in the first place, so they don't know the difference. Usually 理系 is considered smart but nerdy or geeky.

Most Japanese think Japan is one of the leading countries in science and engineering, and also think Japan isn't bad in other fields.

Grinkers Wrote:I'm sure you mentioned it before, but what did you study, and where?

I majored in mathematics at Keio University and went to its grad school to study discrete mathematics. After publishing a couple papers in the field, I changed my major to computer science and went to the grad school of Nagoya University to finish my Ph.D. program. I got a master degree from Keio University and a Ph.D. from Nagoya University. My doctoral dissertation is on interactions between math and computer science, so the main results were published in different kinds of journals from computer science journals like IEEE transactions on Information Theory to math journals like the Journal of Algebraic Combinatorics.

It's kind of difficult to classify the area I have studied because I usually pick an interesting topic in computer science, give a math model and/or theorems, and move on. If I prove purely mathematical theorems inspired by the research, I publish them in a math journal. My research style is as slutty as my math background can get, so I'm always changing areas I work on.

Grinkers Wrote:I always love reading your posts!

Why, thanks!

Tobberoth Wrote:However, even at a master level in economics, that essay is pathetically short compared to what we have to write for bachelor degrees in Sweden, especially in Engineering.

Length doesn't matter. My master's thesis consisted of my 6 page long paper and another 14 page long paper accepted for publication in a math journal. It was pathetically short by your standards. But my theorem in the thesis and another guy's result settled a decade old conjecture in the affirmative, and I won the best master's thesis award from the math department. I'm kind of thinking economics in Japanese university isn't very good though.

bluemarigolds Wrote:Is grad school in Japan any different from undergrad in Japan?

I don't know about non-science grad schools, but grad schools of science related fields are quite different from undergrad. As others already said, undergrad education doesn't require you work hard. My GPA in undergrad is laughable too because I skipped too many classes. But if you're slacking off in grad school, you'll be kicked out at the end of your second year with a master degree. If you goof off to the extent that they can't give you a master degree, you'll be expelled at the end of your 4th year. But then again, things might be radically different in another filed. I'm guessing Yudan is familiar with this sort of thing when it comes to Japanese literature...

By the way, those "Japanese college students don't study" claims are true only for people who don't go to grad school. Because most of the students in non-science majors don't go to grad school, I suppose you could say the majority don't study as hard. Actually you can easily get credits from a lot of classes in undergrad education so the minimum requirements are pretty low. But the majority in science and engineering continue studying at grad school, and you'd fail pretty quickly if you haven't worked hard during undergrad programs. You can't be good at physics and such without studying. It just doesn't happen.