Read the following:

1. A lazy man stops working when there is an ashder.
2. An ashder keeps you from doing what you want to do.
3. Mr. Brown said to Mr. Smith "I don't think we should start this work because there are ashder".
4. The way is clear if there are no ashder.
5. Before finishing the task he had to get rid of a few ashder.
6. Jan had to turn back because there were ashder in her path.

Can you work out what ashder means?



Could this be a good way to study vocabulary?

For example:

1. Sushi comes from 日本.
2. In 日本 I watched sumo.
3. The 2nd largest economy in the world, 日本 has come out of recession.
4. Sony Corporation was founded in 日本 in 1946

Can you work out what 日本 means?


What do you think?


(answer ashder = obstacle)

I guess "problem" until I saw the last one where in a different context a problem is seen as an "obstacle" which broadened my view of what it could mean.

Interestingly this kinda happens naturally when you've run into the same word enough times that you recognise it as a word, a word you don't know but have an idea of. Which is the very point you look things up. To be able to guess purely from context you need to know the other 95% of the words in the sentences. One could extrapolate from that that this is exactly how the last 5% of your vocab will get learned. haha.

I think it's valid for some words. For example, you could have a picture of a red car and the sentence, The car is 赤い and I don't think it would be detrimental. On the other hand, I don't think it would be useful. Have the picture, simply put 赤い and there's no way you'll forget it refers to the color.

The main problem with this technique is that:
1. If you don't already know the word, how will you properly put it in a sentence?
2. Most words won't work in an English context. Many of the words which do will have to be in very specialized sentences.
3. In the few cases where it will work great, there's probably no real benefit left. You don't need a sentence with context if the word is so independent of context that it works when put in a foreign sentence.

Oh, and I also thought ashder meant problem, even after having read the last one.

Learning solely from context is tough. In the last year or so, I've found 4 or 5 words that I 'learned' as a kid from reading books that didn't meant quite what I thought they did. I wasn't too far off, but I wasn't correct either. And that's my native language!

I think context is great for learning to use a word after you know what it means, and I think it's a great introduction to a word, too... But I don't think it's a substitute for a dictionary.

anon6969 Wrote:Could this be a good way to study vocabulary?

Monolingually, yes. If you see a new word several times in contexts where you know the other words, you'll usually get a pretty good idea of its meaning. That's how vocabulary grows for advanced language learners and native speakers.

But, bilingually, I think you'll run into a problem. Nouns, especially concrete or technical terms will be easy, words like 犬、桃、地下鉄、高等学校、or 高所恐怖症. Verbs, a bit harder: the ones with more concrete meaning (願う、聴く、飲む、停車する) won't be bad, but what about 取る、込む、出る、かける、やる? Grammatical words are right out--は、を、へ、と、ほど、こと、はず、ため wouldn't be at home in an English sentence. Basically, the same problems that bilingual methods always have--these arguments apply equally to word-pairs.

Unfortunately, those fuzzy verbs and grammar words are exactly the kind of thing that make up basic vocabulary. Once you have that, you can continue to progress through the more technical stuff either monolingually, or bilingually.

(Bilingual vocab is definitely faster for passive skills. The jury's out on what's better for active. Learning how ideas are re-expressed with simpler words in your target language is good, but so is having a large passive vocabulary.)

For bootstrapping, I've had decent success starting with bilingual sentences. Words that don't correspond between languages combine to make ideas which correspond better--giving you your "in" to the language. I'm just about done with the Core2000 and plan to switch to studying definitions next to get me to the goal of bootstrapping: competence with a monolingual dictionary.

Past that point I don't expect an ashder between me and monolingual methods.

I for one would not like to look at english sentences while studying Japanese. So rather than learning a Japanese word in an english context why not a Japanese word in a Japanese context?

zodiac Wrote:I for one would not like to look at english sentences while studying Japanese. So rather than learning a Japanese word in an english context why not a Japanese word in a Japanese context?

Is it really in an English context? Not strictly speaking unless the text was translated from English to Japanese.

I actually really like the idea of direct learning after having being exposed to it through a brief stint of learning Esperanto via lernu.net. Check It out to see what I mean. Basically the course that teaches you all the grammer and first few hundred words is all monolingual and explains meaning via pictures. Works brilliantly for to bootstrap you in Esperanto.

wccrawford Wrote:Learning solely from context is tough. In the last year or so, I've found 4 or 5 words that I 'learned' as a kid from reading books that didn't meant quite what I thought they did. I wasn't too far off, but I wasn't correct either. And that's my native language!

I think context is great for learning to use a word after you know what it means, and I think it's a great introduction to a word, too... But I don't think it's a substitute for a dictionary.

This. You can never be sure about a word you learned through context. You might think you're using it perfectly when you're only using it correctly 80% of the time. I strongly discourage people from attempting to learn Japanese from context only before they have reached a very high level (Around when you can get 330+ on JLPT1 sounds like a decent start, maybe).

Really interesting thread.

I think that learning words through context is totally doable and a good way to learn, but agree with Tobberoth that it's usually better to wait till at least an intermediate to advanced stage to do it this way. I also think it should only be done in monolingual contexts.

One big problem with using this method to learn vocabulary in Japanese is that you often can only guess how a word should be read by its kanji. You have to look it up to be sure of the correct pronunciation. So I think that trying to skip using a dictionary to pick up a lot of vocabulary this way could lead to picking up some words incorrectly, unless you're using sources that have furigana....

I also don't really know where I stand on learning through pictures. I'm including pictures in all of my cards right now because I think it can only help and makes reviewing more enjoyable, but I don't know if learning 赤い through a sentence like "This car is 赤い" with a picture of a red car really means that you still won't think in your head, Oh, so 赤い means "red." I'd be really interested if anyone knows of any studies on vocabulary acquisition in foreign languages with regards to using pictures as opposed to bilingual definitions.

mezbup Wrote:I actually really like the idea of direct learning after having being exposed to it through a brief stint of learning Esperanto via lernu.net. Check It out to see what I mean. Basically the course that teaches you all the grammer and first few hundred words is all monolingual and explains meaning via pictures. Works brilliantly for to bootstrap you in Esperanto.

It's interesting that you should mention this, because this is actually how many American Sign Language (ASL) classes are taught. ASL courses taught this way are usually taught by a deaf instructor for whom ASL is their first language. The textbooks teach vocabulary and grammar entirely through illustrations along with diagrams of the gestures, which will then be demonstrated in class through skits, sort of like the sign language equivalent of example dialogues. Speaking English is not permitted in these classes, and all questions have to be asked either in ASL or in writing. I think this has to be one of the most interesting methodologies currently being used in teaching foreign languages.

well, you could always go here: http://tangorin.com/examples and get plenty of sentences for words... that is the way one of my friends studies Japanese and his speaking is really good

Hashiriya Wrote:well, you could always go here: http://tangorin.com/examples and get plenty of sentences for words... that is the way one of my friends studies Japanese and his speaking is really good

Nah, Tangorin uses the normal sentences which every site uses, like jisho.org etc. The sentences are known to be riddled with errors and unnatural examples. I would never recommend anyone to use Tanaka corpus sentences when mining.

not necessarily mining, but just reading over them to get a better idea of the word might help

@Hashiriya: Or you could just google the word.

I think there is an add-on in firefox that replace random words in an English text with the equivalent words in Japanese.

@ahibba: Yeah, there is the Characterizer. Fun to play around with, but (of course) not always correct. It looks like this:

anon6969 Wrote:読ead 翌彼e following:

1. A 惰azy 男an stops working when there is an ashder.
2. An ashder keeps you 乃rom doing 何hat you want to 為o.
3. 殿r. 褐rown said to 殿r. Smith "吾 着on't 思hink we should start this 働ork because there are ashder".
4. The way is clear if there are no ashder.
5. 先efore finishing the 務ask 彼e had to get rid 之f a 少ew ashder.
6. Jan had to 番urn 裏ack because there were ashder 中n her 路ath.

可an you 働ork out 何hat ashder means?

anon6969 Wrote:Read the following:

1. A lazy man stops working when there is an ashder.
2. An ashder keeps you from doing what you want to do.
3. Mr. Brown said to Mr. Smith "I don't think we should start this work because there are ashder".
4. The way is clear if there are no ashder.
5. Before finishing the task he had to get rid of a few ashder.
6. Jan had to turn back because there were ashder in her path.

Can you work out what ashder means?

It's an interesting idea. I connected to "obstacle" after reading all of the sentences, however if your English wasn't very good e.g. you missed some of the grammar used, or some of the common expressions and all the other vocab in those sentences, how well would you figure it out?

I think this works well at a more advanced level though. In a native language, most words are learned this way.

Often words that you learn through pure context are blindingly obvious. The other day I was watching school rumble and the main character is considering taking a rindou to get to school. Her lil sis explains it's dangerous but when she thinks there's a chance she might see her crush she just rushes in.

She was standing infront of a forest with a path leading into it. At this pointit was pretty obvious that rindou meant 林道 or woodland path.

It's things like that that you kinda get for free every once in a while.

mezbup Wrote:Often words that you learn through pure context are blindingly obvious. The other day I was watching school rumble and the main character is considering taking a rindou to get to school. Her lil sis explains it's dangerous but when she thinks there's a chance she might see her crush she just rushes in.

She was standing infront of a forest with a path leading into it. At this pointit was pretty obvious that rindou meant 林道 or woodland path.

It's things like that that you kinda get for free every once in a while.

But you kind of don't get them for free, since you still have to look them up at least to know how to read/write them, or if they're usually written just using kana, etc.

shirokuro Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:Often words that you learn through pure context are blindingly obvious. The other day I was watching school rumble and the main character is considering taking a rindou to get to school. Her lil sis explains it's dangerous but when she thinks there's a chance she might see her crush she just rushes in.

She was standing infront of a forest with a path leading into it. At this pointit was pretty obvious that rindou meant 林道 or woodland path.

It's things like that that you kinda get for free every once in a while.

But you kind of don't get them for free, since you still have to look them up at least to know how to read/write them, or if they're usually written just using kana, etc.

I mean get them for free as in they're so blindingly obvious the only reason you need to look them up is to squash that 1% because you're only 99% sure You always have to look everything up, especially with Japanese!

mezbup Wrote:I mean get them for free as in they're so blindingly obvious the only reason you need to look them up is to squash that 1% because you're only 99% sure You always have to look everything up, especially with Japanese!

Oh, hehe, yeah, you're right. I was just thinking because sometimes I'll pick up something from watching a drama or anime or something in Japanese with English subtitles, but will have no clue how to read or write it until I look it up.

mezbup Wrote:Is it really in an English context? Not strictly speaking unless the text was translated from English to Japanese.

Maybe I'm understanding him/her wrongly, but I thought what anon6969 meant was literally to learn the word "日本" by looking at sentences like "Sushi comes from 日本." Where "sushi comes from" is the english context.

mezbup Wrote:I actually really like the idea of direct learning after having being exposed to it through a brief stint of learning Esperanto via lernu.net. Check It out to see what I mean. Basically the course that teaches you all the grammer and first few hundred words is all monolingual and explains meaning via pictures. Works brilliantly for to bootstrap you in Esperanto.

Yes, I think I remember something like that (not sure which language). It was quite an unexpected way to teach a language.