I'm new and just joined. Last week i started to consider how i should approach studying Japanese. i didn't have an exact goal. I have a book on Learning Japanese Sentence Patterns. This book gives you 50 different patterns to learn and apply -i/na adjectives and verbs so you can formulate sentences/ideas quicker in your mind. That was why i bought the book. I just found out about JLPT so i'm considering taking the JLPT4 this year. To my surprise i did a prep-vocabulary test and scored 90%.

I noticed the helpful comments on the previous JLPT thread. Looks like you guys are saying that the test isn't the most practical/real-world approach to fluency but is helpful for a goal and direction. Is there a better approach or standard to really grow towards fluency? Sannomiya mentioned, 'taking and preparing for the practice tests is very productive.' So, i'm wondering if i should take the test now. I do like the direction and goals it provides. Are there other directions to consider?

One more question about JLPT, i have the kanji and vocab lists for the tests.
What would be the best way to learn the grammar, reading and listening
comprehension? Genki books? Thank you much!

Finish Heisig as soon as possible and then start reading manga(or at least find something else to read that you'd find interesting). A friend of my friend did exact what I just said and he's basically fluent in Japanese now.

If you've ever noticed, certain manga series have the furigana(pronunciation) for ALL of the kanji. Fruits Basket is such an example. So with your knowledge of Heisig, you would know the meanings of most of the the kanji, be able to piece together the sentences and learn pronunciation as you read through them.

Another good idea might be to watch Japanese TV shows and dramas(D-addicts.com). If possible, watch them without subtitles. Over time, you'll get used to Japanese pronunciation and be able to repeat any sentence that a native speaker says to you. When this happens, you'll be able to pick up little tidbits of native Japanese anytime, anyplace. Sometimes in TV variety shows that have huge subtitles for the important sentences and jokes that they make.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you should read and listen to stuff that Japanese people would actually be interested in. It'll help you to think and speak like a Japanese person. If you learn Japanese from a school textbook, you'll sound like a polite foreignor with the overly nice and formal Japanese that only exist in textbooks.

Also, some good books I would suggest:

Making Sense of Japanese (everyone should own this book)
It's a one of a kind book that explains what's going on in the head of Japanese people when they say certain things. It's full of explanations of things that Japanese instinctively know, but can't explain. If you've ever ask a grammar question and the response is "I don't know, that's just how we say it", then you should definitely get it.

Basic Connections: Making your Japanese Flow
This is more for intermediate level. It's based on the idea that beginners can form simple thoughts in single sentences, but are unable to do much more. It teaches you how to form complex thoughts that make take up several sentences.

Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar (thejapanshop.net)
The best beginner level grammar book IMHO. Instead of spoon-feeding you the meaning of grammar patterns, you have to look at the sentences, look for patterns yourself, and try to figure out what's going on. Btw, it covers grammar for level 3 and 4 of the JLPT.

But like I said, your first goal should be to get through Heisig. If you can accomplish that, you will passed what many people consider to be the greatest obstacle to learning Japanese. If you're taking classes, don't be surprised if people start asking you if you've studied Chinese before..... :-p

I've even had times where I had to correct native Japanese with their Kanji. It's such a great feeling...... :-)

Man, that is a great and very thought-out reply. Thanks ChamCham. Very out-of-the box. I think that will be necessary to conquer japanese.

I definately will pick up RTK soon. I am trying to figure out the next steps.
I will study for JLPT but may not take the test. I should have no prob to get through
L4. I'll do the rote memory thing with what is on the vocab/kanji in addition to the RTK.
As far as a textbook, i'll have to look at the Basic Grammar book. They may have it in Japantown nearby. Either that or Genki most likely. What about JFE? Any other thoughts?

Check out Tae Kim's grammar portal. It may be used as intensive course to start understanding sentence structure. Combined with Heisig, it's all you need aside from experience if you are not in any particular hurry. http://www.guidetojapanese.org/index.html

I'm not a very big fan of Tae Kim's site.

Like ChamCham, I think it's a good idea to forget about trying to read grammar rules and hammer them into your head. Just pick up some comic books (preferably with furigana) and start readin'. I don't even think you need to finish the Heisig book before you start that. You can do them both at the same time. Just don't focus too much on the kanji until you finish the Heisig book.

When I started learning, I didn't have the right mentality. I would try reading comics but I wouldn't be content unless I could understand every single word (even the sound effects), and I wasted a whole lot of time flipping through my dictionary. I now believe that the best way to go about it is to not even touch the dictionary. Just go through the comic reading out the sentences and trying to figure out what they are saying and what the words mean. You won't get much of any of it at first, but if you keep paying attention, you will notice certain words appearing again and again and you'll be able to deduce what they mean (it helps that there are illustrations), and this will snowball until you understand almost everything. I really think that technique works if you have the right attitude.

JimmySeal

I think you get important pragmatic considerations mixed up.
For many tasks there's a mechanical way of doing and intuitive one. You gain intuition through experience. You become able to do it mechanical way through remembering the rules.
Intuition in complex things is usually more productive if it's a human who needs to perform mechanics otherwise. It's used even for things where mechanical way is more precise, like in mathematics, to gain productivity. Intuition is also a more comfortable thing to use. But intuition takes much time to train.
So if your time to become being able to carry out the task is severely limited, you learn to do it mechanical way. Otherwise intuition is your objective and you need to find appropriate way to train it.

To gain intuition you need experience in the same thing you want to train. That's how Heisig's approach works: it gives you that experience by teaching you mechanical process (story-remembering) through which you get the required result.

To learn understanding the language you need experience of understanding the language. To gain that experience you need some initial level of that ability. Which you can bootstrap by reading a grammar survey for, say, couple of days, or by reading ton of text for some months.
What you describe as 'coming to right mentality' surely happened after that initial level was already reached, so it doesn't apply to beginner.

I also forgot to mention that there are lots of japanese clips on Youtube. Just search for something japanese related. Find stuff where Japanese people are talking and imitate them.

japanjames Wrote:Very out-of-the box.

You like out-of-the box? Lots of folks like this:
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/

japanjames Wrote:What about JFE?

I liked it! Covers all the basic grammar in one book, with a good emphasis on plain speach, which many texts neglect.

JimmySeal Wrote:I'm not a very big fan of Tae Kim's site.

I've glanced at it, and heard great things about it. But I've also heard it's pretty light. Some day I'll have to check it out more thoroughly.

Speaking of YouTube clips... found this person on YouTube recently that posted a funny short program called きょうのおむすび (Omusubi of the Day)... Every day making another type of rice ball with a panel of chef-hat clad judges taste testing them in the end.
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kichinto3

Also someone has been posting up full episodes of クレヨンしんちゃん (Crayon Shin-chan) that are pretty fun to watch as well:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=sylup
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=Midiiii
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?us...teredBunny

I've also found (to a lesser degree) some episodes of あたしんち (Atashinchi):

I also found these to be amusing (and subtitled):

Finally.. If you want to save anything you find on YouTube for later play... Here's the YouTube Downloader site: http://video.qooqle.jp/dl/

RoboTact Wrote:Intuition is also a more comfortable thing to use. But intuition takes much time to train.
So if your time to become being able to carry out the task is severely limited, you learn to do it mechanical way. Otherwise intuition is your objective and you need to find appropriate way to train it.

Which you can bootstrap by reading a grammar survey for, say, couple of days, or by reading ton of text for some months.
What you describe as 'coming to right mentality' surely happened after that initial level was already reached, so it doesn't apply to beginner.

Someone who has a severely limited amount of time to learn Japanese isn't going to learn Japanese. It requires a lot of time.

Yes, it's true that reading grammar explanations would seem to accelerate a person's progress at first, but this is only in the short run. A person who learns by observing the language in its raw form will eventually catch up to the mechanical learner, and the rewards will be greater, as they will have a more intimate relationship with the language and will ultimately be able to use it more smoothly.

What set of grammar lessons did you use to bootstrap your native language?

robotact Wrote:What you describe as 'coming to right mentality' surely happened after that initial level was already reached, so it doesn't apply to beginner.

I know it's too late for me to go back and learn Japanese from the beginning, so I can't prove what I'm saying as it pertains to Japanese, but I have begun learning another language without a dictionary or grammar reference, and in my own personal opinion, I'm making tremendous progress.

http://www.english-learning.co.uk/voc.html
http://static.unilang.org/resources/vocab/vocdb.html

I'm gonna have to agree with JimmySeal on those points. Although mechnacial learner's "seem" to progress faster learning, the other method provides "better" progress that shows its benefits further down the line.

As a metaphor, it's kind of like the difference between taking a "crash diet" versus simply eating better and exercising faithfully. The crash diet can quickly drop your weight down faster(thus satisfying the goal of reducing your weight), but it won't be good for you, since you might be losing muscle and energy as well. Exercise and dieting takes a lot more work and diligence, but further down the line, you'll be much better off physically than if you took the crash diet option.

Btw, you may not know it now. But Japanese grammar can be as tough as kanji.
Memorize rules is easy. But the difficulty comes in using the grammar in the
same manner that a Japanese person would. One of the easiest mistakes I've
seen people make is trying to make Japanese sentences fit their language's
thought pattern or sentence structure.

The only way to get around this is to imitate sentences that Japanese
actually speak or write. And the funny thing is that in many cases, the patterns
, words, or sentences that they use make no sense at all when translated literally...........but to Japanese people it somehow makes perfect sense.

There have been so many times where I've watched Japanese TV shows and thought to myself, "WTF?! there's no way I would have ever made up that sentence on my own!" or "the way the grammar is put together makes no sense at all, but everyone seems to be using it that way". When you start noticing these things, that's when your Japanese is gonna really start to sound more native.

Sometimes I wonder if the reasoning behind mechnical learning used in nearly all language books is more of a marketing thing to get your money. It's much easier to appeal to people's need for instant gratificiation, even though it doesn't help out in the long run. People buy the book learn a few words, but then they give up later on and blame it on being lazy or lack of ability to learn. By that time, you've already bought the book, so it doesn't matter to the publisher.

People always want the easy way out and it usually doesn't work. But somehow we end up falling for it over and over. Learning a language takes a lot of patience and dedication. There's no five page cliff notes that'll teach you everything in 10 minutes.

Even after you finish Heisig, there's still a lifetime of material left.
Even native Japanese speakers are still learning.

Anyway. Good luck with everything.
Hope I didn't scare you at all.

Oh, and check out how the Japanese learn English naturally,

LOL......

In the fluency vs mechanics debate:

Before I started Japanese, I learned English, German and French as second languages (native Dutch speaker). All of them I started learning the mechanical way, and there was nothing wrong with that for me. It helped me to see structure in the language, and it helped me to get to the point were I could start reading it on my own. In French and German I never got any intuitive training, and when I go to these countries I still understand quite well what's going on, though expressing myself properly is more difficult.

On the other hand, in English I've acquired what I'd call near-native fluency in more intuitive ways. First by reading lots and lots of books and hearing lots and lots of TV and movies and slowly filtering out the subtitles, and later by having to process it real-time, first online chatting on the internet and later by actually real life conversations and gaming in English. Nowadays I can even think in English on certain subjects and I'd have to stop and think again to translate some of it in Dutch.

I need both. I can look at all the manga and anime that I want, but it frustrates me immensely if I have no grammar rules available. Especially with Japanese, where so many verbal patterns are formed with just subtle different combinations of common words (patterns like 'koto ga aru or -ri -ri suru, or subtle uses of 'no' or 'na'), I need to fall back on the mechanic rules to feel save in knowing what construction I'm actually seeing. My reading skills will probably develop faster and further than speaking, hearing and writing.

However, I'm sure that if I get to the point where I have the basics under my belt, only intuitive immersion in the language will get me to the point where I could comfortably speak it or listen to it.

[ファブリス]

chamcham Wrote:Oh, and check out how the Japanese learn English naturally,

LOL......

Damn you! Just when that tune was about to disappear forever from the recesses of my memory, you brought it up again, in true "Leitner-box" fashion! It's gonna take a month at least now to forget it again. ^_^

chamcham Wrote:Oh, and check out how the Japanese learn English naturally,

LOL......

Unbelievable !!!!

Man, alot of great wisdom here. Appreciate it.
I believe i will split up my time and go with the best of both worlds.
I don't hear much of many people who go through the mechanical
school route reaching fluency. Usually i would guess, most simmer out somewhere
in between. Can anyone back me up on that? The intuitive approach sounds like it will give more of a foundation to stick with going all the way.
Another big factor is motivation...'Why am i learning Japanese?' That will also determine staying power. Have most of you advanced learners had plateaus in your learning process or has it been steady all the way?

'Ai wasu lobbd bai duu mennu! Ai wasu lobbd bai duu mennu!'

astridtops Wrote:In the fluency vs mechanics debate:

Before I started Japanese, I learned English, German and French as second languages (native Dutch speaker). All of them I started learning the mechanical way, and there was nothing wrong with that for me. It helped me to see structure in the language, and it helped me to get to the point were I could start reading it on my own. In French and German I never got any intuitive training, and when I go to these countries I still understand quite well what's going on, though expressing myself properly is more difficult.

On the other hand, in English I've acquired what I'd call near-native fluency in more intuitive ways. First by reading lots and lots of books and hearing lots and lots of TV and movies and slowly filtering out the subtitles, and later by having to process it real-time, first online chatting on the internet and later by actually real life conversations and gaming in English. Nowadays I can even think in English on certain subjects and I'd have to stop and think again to translate some of it in Dutch.

I need both. I can look at all the manga and anime that I want, but it frustrates me immensely if I have no grammar rules available. Especially with Japanese, where so many verbal patterns are formed with just subtle different combinations of common words (patterns like 'koto ga aru or -ri -ri suru, or subtle uses of 'no' or 'na'), I need to fall back on the mechanic rules to feel save in knowing what construction I'm actually seeing. My reading skills will probably develop faster and further than speaking, hearing and writing.

However, I'm sure that if I get to the point where I have the basics under my belt, only intuitive immersion in the language will get me to the point where I could comfortably speak it or listen to it.

I am studying Japanese, after studying English and French (Spanish is my native tongue).
In my experience, the best way to go is to combine the "mechanical way" and the "random way" (or what you call intuitive way).
I also found out that the mechanical way is best for grammar, whereas the random or intuitive way is best for learning vocabulary.
Reviewing what you have learned is even more important than learning. But as each person learns through different paths, each one should take personal notes along the way, so it will be possible to do easy reviewing.

If you want to start your speaking off well then I can recommend Pimsleur a lot. I am currently doing the Chinese course and it's a great way to start a new language. You start from absolutely nothing and build on your speaking and listening only, great stuff.
I wish I had known about Pimsleur when I started learning Japanese.

kyotokanji Wrote:If you want to start your speaking off well then I can recommend Pimsleur a lot. I am currently doing the Chinese course and it's a great way to start a new language. You start from absolutely nothing and build on your speaking and listening only, great stuff.
I wish I had known about Pimsleur when I started learning Japanese.

Isn't Pimsleur... unbearably boring?!.. I have listened to a few of their Cantonese lessons out of interest and it seems to be a rather brain-dead exercise. Or does it get better as one moves up the difficulty scale?

I'm doing Pimsleur's Japanese and I don't find it boring. It's not that interesting, but it presents new material fast enough to keep my interest while still reinforcing the old stuff.

Since you are just beginning to learn Japanese, pretty much anything you do
will help you learn a lot. It isn't until you reach a plateau that your
direction of study will really matter.

At that point, you'll know what you're having difficulty with and that'll often drive your study plans.

A year or two back, one of my friends had Pimsleur's French and I found the audio to be excruciating, but, with the praise here, I'll look into it.

I've started doing Pimsleur on my bike ride to and from work. I'm working through them all from the beginning. I'm on lesson 20 now and it's unbearably easy. BUT, I love it. It provides significant repetition and review, which is especially useful for realizing/embedding grammar, and I've even learned a few new things from it. My bike rides would otherwise be wasted time.

I wouldn't recommend Pimsleur to a serious early beginner though! Only to someone interested in quick and dirty Japanese, or to a intermediate beginner looking for reps. Like most other texts, it uses too much polite form you have to 'unlearn' later to truly grasp.

Now that I know better, the most effective course for Japanese I wish I'd taken was:

Foundation (in this order):
Hiragana/Katakana
Heisig 1
Pimsleur
Tae Kim


Vocab Building & Application (in any order/combination):
Heisig 2
A text (JFE, Minna Nihongo)
Reading (manga, children's newspaper, etc)
Writing (journal, Mixi, etc)
Listening (TV, radio, podcasts, etc)
Speaking (partner, exchange)

Essential Resources
RvTK
Wakan Dictionary
Twinkle / Mnemosyne
Tae Kim
Stroke Orders
Meguro JLPT Resources

Pimsleur isn't going to have you rolling around the floor with laughter but I like it a lot. I've never used the Japanese one but i'm using the Chinese one with Risetta stone to build vocab.
The problem with many textbooks is the over-poilteness. That irritates me a lot but it's always better to be over-polite than to sound rude.

I would have loved to have known about Pimsleur before I came to Japan. I think the Pimsleur approach is great and will definitely use it when I come to learning another laungage. Coming to Pimsleur late, when I tried it I found that I sometimes responded with Japanese I knew rather than "the answer". As with Heisig, I reckon it's never too early to start Pimsleur.