We should remember that the point is to take something incredibly complex and separate the task into component parts, and attack each task systematically. Divide and Conquer! As soon as you give in to the idea that "this technique is a waste" because it doesn't integrate with all the other tasks, then you're starting down that road of "all a once or not at all", which is IMO, a mistake.

I'm assuming that the above is in reply to my comment. I totally agree that breaking your Japanese learning into component parts is a good idea and I don't think that the technique is a waste of time at all. My concern is that in applying the kanji town method, there is an imbalance of effort versus output. I disagree though in that I think that integration of all the tasks is very important.

Learning the reading of kanji is an important part of the whole but I think its quite a small part. The much larger part is learning the meaning of compounds, such as 回心, and being able to use that knowledge productively afterwards. My argument is that when you learn the meaning of a word, and practise using it, you will automatically learn the pronunciation and therefore all you need to do is attach the kanji. Going in the other direction, and learning the reading before learning how to use it, is another approach but I'm wondering whether its the most efficient. Obviously, like Charley says, it's good to use a combination of approaches.

I'm interested in this kanji town approach but I'm wondering if people who have tried it can tell me about how well it links in with all of the other aspects of Japanese learning.

It isn't that big of a deal. It took me maybe 2 minutes of my life to take that extra reading in. When you start doing this, you are presented with a list of onyomis in heisigs book. I use them, I do not judge how useful or frequent each reading is. I LATER find out that the ｴ reading of 回 is rare, but so what? It took less than 2 minutes of my life to come up with something that had it fit in my story.

If you are going to sit down and decide whether to include an onyomi or not for each kanji with more than one reading, and there are many, you will end up spending much more time trying to cut corners in the first place. Frankly, I think you worry yourself too much about it because you are stuck in old fashioned thinking. You know that readings are HARD. remembering them for each kanji is a pain in the arse. Well, using kanjichain it is a triviality, really. You still spend time on it, but instead of hammering you forehead against the chinese kanji wall untill you break through, you spend time building siege weapons. In the end you will probably spend equal amount of time, but you will gain the result feeling much less stupid.

The methods I use for using the words I have learnt is to look them up on Jim Breens Example search, then copy a good line into my flash card program. When I review I see the kanjis and some sort of example sentence they are in. As well as I try to read japanese text, of course. Being outside japan makes it pretty much impossible to practice conversation. I am still too short in vocabulary to understand ドラマ, so I mostly stick to reading and canned listening practices such as japanesepod101, Japanese for Busy people

Now, theres no substitute for using language to learn it, But I know from my other languages that as a grown up, I feel worse off for not knowing the words that I want to say than completely fudging them up due to poor grasp of the grammar. So for me, huge vocab and the ability to read is priority #1. Reading ability is your best source for access to japanese as a student outside the country. If you are more interested in speaking japanese, and picking up the reading afterwards, perhaps kanjichain is not the method for you to pursue. I don't know, for me spoken japanese is #2 priority.

So you see, I just don't sit around fooling with kanjichains isolated. I practice my reading on some fitting text at least twice per week. And I am EXHILERATED each time I run into a jukugo where i can pronounce even half of it correctly because Im drawing on my kanjichains. Its one of those "PWNED!" moments where I think ME 1- japanese 0.

(Of course, the grand tournament score is me: 10 points, japanese 5.000.000)

It is the typical anti-heisig argument. You waste time focussing too much on one part, ignoring the rest. First, you can forget about evenly balancing your efforst in all aspects. There is always one area you will rock in compared to others. Be it spoken japanese, reading or writing it.

The difference here is that you gain a high level of confidence in your readings almost immediately, where as using the old fashioned method of repetition untill it sticks, you gain slow confidence in the readings. Again, how did you learn your first 2nd language?

Did the teacher start with the letter A, next week letter B and then gave you words consisting of a and B? No, you had the alphabet strongly embedded in you already, all youy had to do was to learn a few quaint pronounciation rules and you are set. This is simply going to the end with the method you started using in RTK1. Why quit it at the beginning of RTK2? Finish the job.

I like the initial results of the process. I think a good way to review is to walk. While you are walking you can mentally review the different neighborhoods you have created and the kanji that live there. Watch where you are going and the traffic!!!

At the same time, I want to balance making my kanji town with vocabulary study, reading, grammar study, and Pimsleur tapes. While doing vocabulary study kanji town paid off when I remembered AN (Relax [I'm not at computer with hiragana]) in the word FUAN. I think for me I can get obsessed with systems so I might just make one kanji neighborhood a day (or a few if they are small) and do other Japanese studies. But the few I have made have already paid off, making the kanji vocabulary study just one notch easier.

One hand washes the other.

wrightak Wrote:However, can anyone make their own example sentence or paragraph using 回心? I see very little point in expending a lot of effort to learn the exceptional readings for 回心 and other compounds when you can't use that knowledge productively afterwards.

私たちは回心のことがありますか。

Would that qualify?

tajuindo Wrote:I like the initial results of the process. I think a good way to review is to walk. While you are walking you can mentally review the different neighborhoods you have created and the kanji that live there. Watch where you are going and the traffic!!!

Yes, I do it when I walk the dog. I print out my selected so that i have a checklist with me.

Quote:I might just make one kanji neighborhood a day (or a few if they are small) and do other Japanese studies. But the few I have made have already paid off, making the kanji vocabulary study just one notch easier.

Yes, the impressive and immediate results I got with this technique convinced me, too. One has to experience it to see how powerful it is. If you thought mnemonic stories for individual kanjis where powerful, you have NO idea what lies in wait for you

I guess I'm coming at it from a slightly different perspective. In learning the readings of kanji, I'm not actually learning compounds. I'm thinking of Japanese vocabulary, which uses the readings as a later phase. RTK1 is the writing and the meaning (at least one meaning), and I'm only less than 1/2 way done with this part. RTK2 is (for me) focused on the yomi. RTK3 (if I can ever get it) will be the compounds. I do learn lots of vocab and gramar, but if I get any kanji out of that, its purely coincidental. I'm consciously deferring any real effort in that direction until later.

It is interesting how different we approach it. Ill admit that so far the compounds chosen by Heisig seems a bit eclectic, the real useful ones I have are mostly gathered from reading texts or textbooks. But I like words and knowing many makes me happy

For learning compounds do you use a different kanji town for them? i.e. find all the compounds that start with heart and create a heart shaped house (or whatever) and have all the compounds in a chain of stories there. It seems like you could learn a great deal of compounds quickly this way. I suppose there could even be a separate heart chain for each pronounciation of heart but that might split them too much to be practical (and therefore defeat the baby steps method).

I just enter them and try and memorize them. I am doing them slowly however, much slower than the rate I progress with readings and stories. I do not chain them together on elements like you do.

Immacolata Wrote:If you are going to sit down and decide whether to include an onyomi or not for each kanji with more than one reading, and there are many, you will end up spending much more time trying to cut corners in the first place.

I completely agree, very good point.

Immacolata Wrote:The methods I use for using the words I have learnt is to look them up on Jim Breens Example search, then copy a good line into my flash card program.

I also used Jim Breen's examples but I'm a little wary these days. There's a very big problem which surfaces after you read about how the examples were collated. I think it's essential to know whether the example sentence was originally Japanese and has been translated into English, or whether it was originally English and has been translated into Japanese. I read about it a while ago but I believe that the Tanaka corpus was created by students who brought along sentences that they'd picked up from all over the place. Therefore, if you use an example sentence from Jim Breen to a put a word you're trying to learn in context, the sentence could originally be English and hence not of maximal value. Still, it's a very good resource and better than nothing.

Immacolata Wrote:So for me, huge vocab and the ability to read is priority #1. ...I don't know, for me spoken japanese is #2 priority.

I find this really interesting. Is this because you can't make spoken Japanese a priority (because you're outside Japan), or is it because you're simply not as interested in it?

Immacolata Wrote:It is the typical anti-heisig argument. You waste time focussing too much on one part, ignoring the rest. First, you can forget about evenly balancing your efforst in all aspects. There is always one area you will rock in compared to others. Be it spoken japanese, reading or writing it.

Personally, I don't agree with this. I've already spent a lot of time and effort on Heisig and I'm therefore not anti it and I'm not anti kanji town either. In fact, as I mentioned in one of my other posts, I think that I'm definitely going to give it a try once I finish RTK 1. (Only another 300 to go!) I was concerned with both the time and effort needed and with how it slots in with other aspects of study. I don't understand why people think that Heisig's method isolates one part of Japanese study because I believe that it can integrate very well. From what I've been reading, I think that the kanji town method also could.

I also find it interesting that you think there is always one area you'll be much better at. I don't think this is the case and I've certainly tried hard to make sure that I balance all my Japanese skills.

Immacolata Wrote:私たちは回心のことがありますか。

Would that qualify?

According to my Japanese friend, I'm afraid not. We can't understand what you're trying to say here. Is it 'Have we ever been converted?'?

I've been studying for a while now in a school in Tokyo and I study with quite a lot of Korean people. The Korean language, like Japanese, uses a lot of words that are derived from kanji compounds. Therefore, when a Korean person translates a word into Korean from Japanese, it's almost identical in their own language. It's a bit like latin-origin words in French and English. French is my second language and when I learnt a word like 'information', a direct translation was all I needed. I don't compare my experiences learning French and Japanese, they're completely different ball games.

My Korean friends are always astounded by the amount of explanation I and other westerners need for every new word we learn in class. I'm always asking for example sentences and wanting to know when you can use the word and when you can't. They can use the words immediately and they're surprised when, on countless occasions, I make an example sentence that makes no sense.

When I come across new words in texts and conversations, I always put the sentence it came from into my flash card program. I think it would be great if we could all share the sentences that we pick up. What do you think?

wrightak Wrote:I read about it a while ago but I believe that the Tanaka corpus was created by students who brought along sentences that they'd picked up from all over the place. Therefore, if you use an example sentence from Jim Breen to a put a word you're trying to learn in context, the sentence could originally be English and hence not of maximal value. Still, it's a very good resource and better than nothing.

Hmm. Too bad, but thanks for the heads-up. At least I hope it gives me an impression of the words usage. Hope it isn't a false one!

Immacolata Wrote:So for me, huge vocab and the ability to read is priority #1. ...I don't know, for me spoken japanese is #2 priority.

Quote:I find this really interesting. Is this because you can't make spoken Japanese a priority (because you're outside Japan), or is it because you're simply not as interested in it?

I am outside Japan. Conversation in japanese is very difficult outside academical education. perhaps this is why you can allow yourself to be sceptical, because you have the luxury of multiple soruces of japanese anyways. But still, I think you should as you say, try at least all the vowels with kanjitown and see how it works. From ア　to オウ should take you a week perhaps. Then you will have a grasp of its usefulness versus effort required.

Perhaps this also explains my tenacity in these unorthodox methods. Everywhere I have turned, they have told me it is impossible to learn japanese without a formal course, and going to japan for a stay. I have been to Japan, but a language school there is not an option now. Perhaps next year I can afford a summer school there.

Well, I agree with the course. To get you kickstarted you do need a proper teacher. But then, Ive searched a long time trying to breach the walls to japanese. Ive discovered that a lot of myths and lore surrounds it. Any person who have completed japanese courses are kind of like a secret cult of masonists. They share this brandmark, this noble mark of hard labour. And when you come trotting in saying Hey, I want to learn japanese they roll their eyes. You have to do the rites. You must expose yourself to the rigorous torture as it is written in the holy book of being taught japanese. Its 5 years of caning, wax on, wax off.

And yes, you do need to go to japan to really really LEARN to speak japanese and use it AS a japanese. Because just about NO ONE outside japan speaks japanese.
But then again, I notice systems like Heisig. I notice guys like Fabrice. I figure out Kanjitown approaches by guys like LittleFish. I suddenly realize a lot of people around the world struggle as I do. Some without any motivation except they saw this anime and it was like cool. Others just keep working and working and get better and better.
So Ive found out that that japanese is complicated and hard, but theres so much hardness you can ditch by removing the literacy obstacle. Just being able to decipher text into its sound and meaning entities goes a long way. IT removes one filter from in front of your eyes, so that you can see clearer the remaining obstacles between you and mastering japanese. And it is still VERY hard because it is so ALIEN. But Im having fun. Ill show you! <defiant_shakefist.avi>

Quote:Personally, I don't agree with this. I've already spent a lot of time and effort on Heisig and I'm therefore not anti it and I'm not anti kanji town either. In fact, as I mentioned in one of my other posts, I think that I'm definitely going to give it a try once I finish RTK 1. (Only another 300 to go!) I was concerned with both the time and effort needed and with how it slots in with other aspects of study. I don't understand why people think that Heisig's method isolates one part of Japanese study because I believe that it can integrate very well. From what I've been reading, I think that the kanji town method also could.

Heisig doesn't as much isolate, perhaps, as it creates a vertical cut down through the layers of japanese. Instead of doing 10 kanjis, 20 words, 1 hour of convo always, all the time, slowly building up bits and bits, you sort of do kanji as its own entity independent of the rest. You know, doing heisig you are not required to do reading and conversation, but if you try to learn kanji the old fashioned way, you WILL have to do conversation, writing and reading, else the sounds and meaings will never stick. I think it is not just a different road taken, however. I am soundly convinced that having learned kanjis using heisig + kanjitown will nest them in your mind in a way you will never achieve else as a SLJ or TLJ.

I find that Heisig integrates very well with my japanese course. I just did heisig on my own of course. My teacher thought I was a fool, but when I had mastered the book at the end of course 1, he asked me if I was going to learn the readings also? I took that as a mild sign of appreciation. The time and effort needed for kanjitown might not pay off in your case, since you are immersed in japanese everyday and could possibly achieve the same resulsts in more interesting ways.

Quote:I also find it interesting that you think there is always one area you'll be much better at. I don't think this is the case and I've certainly tried hard to make sure that I balance all my Japanese skills.

For me it is always some that is better than the rest. Perhaps because I do tend to obsess over one thing at the cost of other things

Quote:

Immacolata Wrote:私たちは回心のことがありますか。

Would that qualify?

According to my Japanese friend, I'm afraid not. We can't understand what you're trying to say here. Is it 'Have we ever been converted?'?

Ah well, but the onyomi e was perhaps a bad example, since it IS really so rare that almost no words have it, and we would probably never know it or run across it. But others, like 上 have multiple important yomis, so neglecting any of them will be counterproductive IF you have decided to try kanjitown.

Quote:My Korean friends are always astounded by the amount of explanation I and other westerners need for every new word we learn in class. I'm always asking for example sentences and wanting to know when you can use the word and when you can't. They can use the words immediately and they're surprised when, on countless occasions, I make an example sentence that makes no sense.

LOL, yes, Ive been there 100 of times. I am very weak there as you can see, but Im also a complete neophyte. DID do conversation btw, just not on a very high level and my 1 year course is over now. So I am left to my own devices, hence my focus on kanji. That at least will allow me to start reading japanese novels as I try to reinforce my grasp on the language, the grammar etc. Right now I spell my way through E-learning Japanese , a good source of texts for studenst.

I can pronounce japanese and make a habit of reading aloud when I read. But conversation will have to wait.

Quote:When I come across new words in texts and conversations, I always put the sentence it came from into my flash card program. I think it would be great if we could all share the sentences that we pick up. What do you think?

Yes, very good. My only source of proper sentences is what I pick up from various media. If the tanaka corpus is as nilly willy as you suggest, I migth want to cut down my dependence on it

If you have an electronic dictionary one thing to spice up your rtk2 studies is to type in the hiragana into your dictionary and store it in word memo. My dictionary a Canon Wordtank shows sample Japanese sentences. Sometimes this leads to more kanji and more confusion but sometimes there are simple sentences that show how the word is used in a proper grammatical context since J~E dictionaries are primarily for the Japanese market.

I have recently started RTK2 (and actually find it much easier than RTK1 ) and... in my humble opinion, it only makes sense to take up RTK2 when one is +/- 2-kyu level as one needs quite a bit of kango vocabulary and - more importantly - consistent exposure to even more kango so as to place the on-yomi in the context of one's daily reading. At 2-kyu +, RTK2 is exactly what Heisig says it is meant to be: a supplementary guide which is very easy to work with. With zero or only basic knowledge of vocabulary, it remains a purely academic exercise and must be quite hard...

Its not hard, its as you say, easier than RTK1.

taijuando Wrote:My dictionary a Canon Wordtank shows sample Japanese sentences. Sometimes this leads to more kanji and more confusion but sometimes there are simple sentences that show how the word is used in a proper grammatical context since J~E dictionaries are primarily for the Japanese market.

Just like the problem with Jim Breen's sentences that I mentioned before, electronic dictionary example sentences aren't your best source. As you said, it's designed for Japanese learners so every single example sentence in your word tank was originally English and then translated into Japanese. You want the opposite. Using Jim Breen's example sentences is slight better but I would advise you to thoroughly read about where they've come from (the Tanaka corpus). All of the info is available on the site.

Kanjitown question 1: I'm not arguing against the success of this method; I haven't started it yet, myself. But I thought of something that concerned me. By strolling through kanjitown and imagining all the kanjis in the "こう" part of town for example, this would reinforce the connection from pronunciation to kanji, but not from kanji to pronunciation. Is this a problem, since I would think kanji to pronunciation is what one would want to do most of the time?

Kanjitown question 2: If someone had a copy of RTK1 along with the on-yomi for each kanji, could he build the town at the same time he was learning the keywords? What if he started to build the town at the 500 kanji point? That way there would be a few kanjis for each on-yomi to get started. If this would work it seems like it would save a lot of study time, the keyword images and the town images would reinforce each other, and you would not have to finish the book before you were able to start reading Japanese.

BTW, I told my Japanese wife about Kanjitown. Initially, she thought it was ridiculous, but once she got it she thought it sounded very interesting. Other people have commented that the Japanese are not very helpful when it comes to learning kanji, even teachers. Once I asked my wife if she could give me any tips for learning kanji. She said, "Yes. Study them."

wrightak Wrote:it's designed for Japanese learners so every single example sentence in your word tank was originally English and then translated into Japanese.

Do you mean learners of Japanese or Japanese people who are learning (presumably Enlgish)? I have the a Word Tank V80, and I think it is definitly designed for Japanese people. I can't speak to the quality of the example sentences, but the example kanji compounds that you get from the kanji screen are all unusual words rather than common ones. I'm actually very disappointed in this because it makes it almost impossible to look up a word unless you know the pronunciation.

Sorry, I mean Japanese people learning English. My machine also has an advanced Oxford learner's dictionary which I sometimes use for tricky English words. If you want to see how example sentences should be selected then take a look at that, it's brilliant.

I have a seiko but I think they're all pretty similar. There is a kanji lookup facility which you can use. Once you get the hang of it, it's not too bad. You enter the radical and then the stroke count and using both simultaneously you can usually find your kanji. It will then give you some pronunciations and you can try and guess how to read your compound. Watch out though that 肉 and 月 radicals are listed separately even though they look the same (月).

I have a Japanese PDA (pocket PC) with JWPce installed and there's no question that the fastest method for me is to look up a kanji is to write it using my stylus and then look it up using Jim Breen's edict. I also use the SKIP lookup system with JWPce, which can be very fast. If you'd like some more info on any of this then let me know.

Wakela Wrote:Kanjitown question 1: I'm not arguing against the success of this method; I haven't started it yet, myself. But I thought of something that concerned me. By strolling through kanjitown and imagining all the kanjis in the "こう" part of town for example, this would reinforce the connection from pronunciation to kanji, but not from kanji to pronunciation. Is this a problem, since I would think kanji to pronunciation is what one would want to do most of the time?

i cant see where this question is coming from to be honest. it works both ways surely. for example you see 交差点 and you recognise the first kanji as "mingle" from the Heisig method. you then think, "in which part of kanjitown do i mingle...? I know, the こう house". then u have kanji --> pronunciation. so, with reading practice, it works both ways having the kanjitown.

Wakela Wrote:Kanjitown question 1: I'm not arguing against the success of this method; I haven't started it yet, myself. But I thought of something that concerned me. By strolling through kanjitown and imagining all the kanjis in the "こう" part of town for example, this would reinforce the connection from pronunciation to kanji, but not from kanji to pronunciation. Is this a problem, since I would think kanji to pronunciation is what one would want to do most of the time?

No, it works fine on reading, because when you see the kanji, you try to remember the story and you remember what reading it has. Takes 10 seconds for the hardest ones, but usually I am much faster than that.

Quote:Kanjitown question 2: If someone had a copy of RTK1 along with the on-yomi for each kanji, could he build the town at the same time he was learning the keywords? What if he started to build the town at the 500 kanji point? That way there would be a few kanjis for each on-yomi to get started. If this would work it seems like it would save a lot of study time, the keyword images and the town images would reinforce each other, and you would not have to finish the book before you were able to start reading Japanese.

Tisk tisk, you have not read Heisigs stern warnings? Do not mix readings and kanji learning, one at a time! So no, don't do this.

Quote:BTW, I told my Japanese wife about Kanjitown. Initially, she thought it was ridiculous, but once she got it she thought it sounded very interesting. Other people have commented that the Japanese are not very helpful when it comes to learning kanji, even teachers. Once I asked my wife if she could give me any tips for learning kanji. She said, "Yes. Study them."

ROFL. Sound advice, however Instead of being skeptical, try making stories for kanjis with onyomi AN and see for yourself how good it works. But generally, don't mix RTK1 and RTK2. Heisig is really emphatic about that, and Im not the one to argue against it.

Immacolata Wrote:No, it works fine on reading, because when you see the kanji, you try to remember the story and you remember what reading it has. Takes 10 seconds for the hardest ones, but usually I am much faster than that.

That's encouraging. What about the kanji with more than one reading? These seem to be in the minority, but they also seem to be the most common ones.

Immacolata Wrote:Tisk tisk, you have not read Heisigs stern warnings? Do not mix readings and kanji learning, one at a time! So no, don't do this.

Yes. Yes. I know. I'm at 1530 in RTK1 which means I recognize most of the kanji that I see, and it's driving me nuts that I can't read them. So I was hoping to get a little start on the readings and then add the remaining kanji as I study the keywords. Also, I work at a Japanese company and have to study vocabulary reading and writing whether I like it or not. But you are right. Heisig is all knowing, though at times like this he can be a bit of a ... taskmaster.

Wakela Wrote:That's encouraging. What about the kanji with more than one reading? These seem to be in the minority, but they also seem to be the most common ones.

i heard something about a kanjitown "orphanage" for kanji with only 1 音読み. keeping them altogether.

Wakela Wrote:Kanjitown question 2: If someone had a copy of RTK1 along with the on-yomi for each kanji, could he build the town at the same time he was learning the keywords? What if he started to build the town at the 500 kanji point? That way there would be a few kanjis for each on-yomi to get started. If this would work it seems like it would save a lot of study time, the keyword images and the town images would reinforce each other, and you would not have to finish the book before you were able to start reading Japanese.

Character order in RTK1 follows a completely different logic to RTK2. Characters grouped on any particular phonetic component in RTK1 are usually scattered throughout RTK1 so it makes little sense to tackle both books at the same time.

BTW, RTK3 is available on-line for free in a scanned version if one can be bothered to look for it.

I've scanned for RTK3 before, and pretty much got nothing. I found the ebook at the publisher's site by a word-of-mouth referral. Can you offer a word-of-mouth referral for a scanned version of RTK3? Or the search engine keyword used to get a hit on it?

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