I was Christmas shopping at Japantown in San Francisco yesterday, and visited the new building they just made: http://www.newpeopleworld.com/ and on the middle floor, with all the merchandise, I was struck by how they seemed to only be marketing and highlighting the bizzare items of Japan within the store: for example, the small section of art books primarily featured things like a photography book of Love Hotel BDSM Dungeons. A few others just contained photos of things like zoomed-up images of sperm on women's bodies, and illustrations of tentacle porn, etc.

Now, don't get me wrong, the store itself was very interesting and is a brilliant addition to Japantown, and even if most of the stuff is quirky in there there is a lot of great things too ... but I was observing Americans looking at a lot of the merchandise in the store and kinda having a, "WTF...Japan is so weird!" reaction that I've experienced a lot in America.

I guess I started this thread to get other people's opinions on this, because it kinda' bothers me when I've heard so many people have this vision of Japan as being such a strange place, just because that's what a lot of media etc focuses on. Yes, there are a lot of odd things in Japan, but I've seen extremely weird things in California too: when San Francisco has their gay-bondage-leather festival, and tons of men are walking around in public wearing nothing but leather thongs and animal masks, I don't see those things getting mass publicity to Japan and having everyone think, "OH, AMERICANS ARE SO WEIRD!" yet it seems Japan gets that treatment sometime.

I suppose my question is: why do people think the various quirks of Japanese culture apply to our entire population? Why do people focus on these things so much? I've met so many people who think that panty-selling-vending-machines, tentacle porn, extremely weird sexual fetishes etc are the norm in Japan. It drives me crazy having to convince people sometimes that NO, the country is NOT like that.

Sorry for the mini-rant. Anyone have thoughts/opinions?

I'm in Tokyo right now, and you know what? It is that ***** weird.

The personification of Japan, especially as a 'wacky fetishist', is indeed quite annoying.

It's basically caused by a combination of...

1) Outdated imperialistic 19th century Orientalist attitudes which are still hugely pervasive (despite the best efforts of Edward Said and others), specifically the notion that everything 'East' is the absolute opposite of everything 'West'. A lot of Americans like to think of the US as the home of sound morals, common sense and conservative values, so of course Japan must be the total opposite of that (*facepalm*).

2) The tendency of the Western media to only report on Japan when something weird/bizarre happens.

2) The lasting effects of cartoons like this.

Aijin Wrote:Yes, there are a lot of odd things in Japan, but I've seen extremely weird things in California too: when San Francisco has their gay-bondage-leather festival, and tons of men are walking around in public wearing nothing but leather thongs and animal masks, I don't see those things getting mass publicity to Japan and having everyone think, "OH, AMERICANS ARE SO WEIRD!" yet it seems Japan gets that treatment sometime.

My personal experience:

Although I don't know what its international image is (if it even has one), but I've actually found that San Francisco itself has a somewhat similar reputation within the US. I never know what people will think when I mention that I live in SF, but I feel that oftentimes their immediate reaction is to immediately think of either 1) hippies 2) gays or 3) weirdos. Last week I went back home for Thanksgiving (to a different state) and went to a friend's party. A guy walked in wearing a San Francisco Giants hat. Some other guy immediately said something about "queers" -- it seemed like the guys knew each other and were just joking, but it still seemed a little off-putting, and I agree it can be irritating when your city/country/region is only known as an exaggerated stereotype. But it's true that this reputation is pretty much localized to San Francisco (and some other "weird" cities) within the US, and as far as I know people in other countries don't extend that to all Americans. I'm not sure why all of Japan gets painted with the weirdness brush.

[off-topic: SF weirdness]
And you're right, no one who lives in San Francisco should be able to criticize Japan as being weird. A few totally bizarre things I've seen here, off the top of my head:

1. In front of the shopping center on Market Street, a group of about 40-50 people all dressed in Santa Claus suits, raving to techno music on a boombox and smoking weed. I could smell it from very far away. (It was nowhere near Christmas when this happened).

2. Last night the security guard in Safeway was staring at me and singing in a soft, creepy voice for no reason. Maybe it wasn't that weird, but it was just on my mind this morning. What was that all about?

3. This guy. He can often be seen at the same place where I saw #1, the cable car turnaround at Market and Powell. Actually if you go there on any given night, you'll usually see something weird or at least interesting.
[/off-topic]

And for some reason, Costa Rica is nothing but a jungle filled with monkeys and underaged prostitutes. (Or at least so I would think, given the representations of Costa Rica I've seen in north american media).
It's not just USA and Japan, it's everywhere and everywhere. A country's people's view of a foreign land is (almost) always a caricature of whatever they find the most interesting in the other culture (or what they think will sell the most).
Not like japan doesn't do it as well, or so it would seem given the representations of foreigners I've seen in japanese media.

Perhaps it's a human nature thing. People tend to judge and classify, label and define, always on very limited information (which we share with others - like we are all 専門家). People see the world according to their own bias. I think things get sensationalized, and people pay attention to it - and form the boxes in their mind that include larger associations. Japan has some unique elements for sure, but it seems a bit demeaning to just throw a "weird" label on JAPAN. Things are always more dynamic then people care to imagine.

I share your frustration. Perhaps people who act this way are not interested in a deeper understanding of Japan, or just have yet to expand their perception of it. Try and see their point of view - from where they stand, that shit is weird - and Japanese - and they might feel more comfortable about it if they can box it in their mind.

I think it is quite universal though. Japanese media isn't exactly full of good quality portrayals of the UK. The only thing they show is the typical tea and cakes image or of extremely eccentric activities.

The BBC is a a mixed bag with the usual rubbish about whacky Japan. Then along comes a documentary like this. Probably the best documentary about Japan I have ever seen. More portrayals of this side of Japan is very educational for people in the UK.

I am from Kazakhstan. Usually people know nothing about this country. I wonder when people see Borat movie, do they really think that he came from Kazakhstan?
Still, I guess that some of the customs in my country may seem quite weird for the unaccustomed (that can be said about any country).

Xenophobia and ignorance fuels so much stupidity such as this. It bugs me to no end, but also consider how well known Japan is worldwide for their technology, innovation and... animation. When all you ever hear about is full-scale model Gundams, space age toilets, batshit insane game shows and tentacle rape, wellll... yeah. I think the average person would probably rather hear about something quirky and silly that they can point and laugh at rather than how Sony corporation just sacked a chunk of their workforce, or the new prime minister, or the celebrity scandal of an actor that very few foreigners have ever heard of. The "noise" simply ends up drowning out everything else, which is often the case, I think.

On a side note, I find it a little hilarious how Americans are typically portrayed in anime and manga, personally!

kyotokanji Wrote:Then along comes a documentary like this. Probably the best documentary about Japan I have ever seen. More portrayals of this side of Japan is very educational for people in the UK.

I second this documentary - a good look at real life in Japan, without all the background noise.

kyotokanji Wrote:

I did not know about this documentary, it is indeed wonderful!
I have already shared it in Facebook. There so many young westerners that think that Japan is one big anime party. But I have Japanese friends who are struggling every day to make ends meet. This is what I would like to show people. Cell Phones, Crazy TV shows, manga, anime, videogames, host clubs, alcohol... it is all extremely elaborated escapism, from what is often a very harsh reality.

EDIT: in my country (Portugal), there is TREMENDOUS confusion between Chinese and Japanese. Most people here have a low education grade, and they see the hordes of Chinese shops threatening their own businesses, and they blame any Asian that appears in their way. At the same time, private TV channels yearn for sensationalism, since that is that draws big ratings among low-educated people. Recently, at the most sensationalist private channel, debuted a national version of "I Survived a Japanese Game Show", but filmed entirely in Portugal. There is a portuguese host, and also a real Japanese host, with a supporting crew of Japanese assistants. True, they only speak Japanese (no subtitles!), and they certainly act crazy enough... But while the otakus are enjoying it, quite a few people have demonstrated their anger through comments, saying that Chinese are already taking over the shops, and now they are taking over the TV and the country... and other absurd statements.

the TV news media seems to just not care for the "real Japan", and only typhoons, earthquakes, bad economic performances, and weird robotic inventions seem to cross over to the Atlantic. Because most people are somewhat ignorant, and feel morally superior to Asia, there is no interest from either the public or the media to change things...

Aijin Wrote:Sorry for the mini-rant. Anyone have thoughts/opinions?

I'd rather be assumed to be weird than violent, imperialistic, obstinate, fascist, fat, greedy, self absorbed, lazy, loud, materialistic, blah, blah, blah....

Quote:but I was observing Americans looking at a lot of the merchandise in the store and kinda having a, "WTF...Japan is so weird!" reaction that I've experienced a lot in America.

You are not Japan.

Quote:I don't see those things getting mass publicity to Japan and having everyone think, "OH, AMERICANS ARE SO WEIRD!" yet it seems Japan gets that treatment sometime.

Maybe true, however, I'm sure you've probably seen things like "American's are so [see above]."

Quote:It drives me crazy having to convince people sometimes that NO, the country is NOT like that.

You are not Japan. However, on some level, Japan is like that. Stereotypes are exaggerated, ignorant perspectives that are believed and passed on by ignorant people (or people looking to make a buck). They originate from some ignorant ****s experience and are propagated through various media.

Much the same way a handful of idiots/companies fuel the stereotypical image our country has abroad, a handful of idiots/companies full the weird porn image. The shock factor alone gives them a boost in international sales.

Now I have some questions for you.

Which makes a better headline? Japan the land of weird, or Japan the land where some weird things come from, but in general they are really normal people?

American Infidels, or Americans: Those people who are just trying to live their lives like we are, but have slightly more liberty in doing so?

If you were trying to sell something which line would you use?

Why do you assume the burden of ambassador? Why would you enter a store a with such fetish oriented paraphernalia?

What do you hope to accomplish with this rant?

Well c'mon kazelee, it's not like Aijin was claiming to be the cultural ambassador, any more than magamo claims to be the linguistic ambassador. You didn't accuse me of trying to be the cultural ambassador of Japan after my comment. Aren't you racially profiling?? ;p j/k

I understand what you're saying though, it's definitely not just a Japanese thing. I remember vowing to pretend to be Canadian when traveling abroad, back when people were going on about imperialist Americans (waay back like before Obama ha ha ha)... I generally comment not only on the fetishism thing, but the 'greying' Japan thing when complaining about how nationalism tends to create 'personification' (and we know Japanese artists/audiences aren't immune to that... what's that anime where all the countries are chibi characters?), anyway I like to focus on those two aspects (a wacky fetishist otaku street slasher recluse/greying asexual postwar imperialist Japanese samurai-ninja spouting haiku, as analyzed in studies of the 20th century, blah blah) as part of my complaints about certain aspects of geography/nationalism...

I'm reminded of Frantz Fanon on 'the pitfalls of national consciousness', Edward Said on 'worldliness', or anything by Saskia Sassen on 'denationalization' and citizenship... I really like that idea, 'denationalization'. Allows one to keep the best of both worlds, methinks. Perhaps relatable to FTAs and ASEAN and new forms of regionalization...

PS - I don't know about you, but I think headlines have come a long way (esp. in the age of news aggregation), I don't think they need to depend on stereotyping...

Fun links because it's me, nest0r, and I can't resist...

http://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/f...tional.htm
http://www.ata.boun.edu.tr/asistanlar/hi...wledge.pdf
http://www.columbia.edu/~sjs2/PDFs/Towar...enship.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/5185253/Saskia...ation-2003

kazelee Wrote:Now I have some questions for you.

Why do you assume the burden of ambassador?

Many (most?) people are proud of their native culture and want their country to be shown in a positive light. I'm not sure why you find that hard to understand. You yourself said earlier in your post that you preferred America to be seen as weird than violent, imperialistic, fat, etc.

kazelee Wrote:Why would you enter a store a with such fetish oriented paraphernalia?

It's a store with various items from Japanese pop culture. She mentioned the fetish items were in a small section of art books on the middle floor. Your question makes me wonder if you read what she said carefully or if you bothered to click the link she gave.

http://www.newpeopleworld.com/goods/

kazelee Wrote:What do you hope to accomplish with this rant?

She clearly said she wanted people's thoughts and opinions about this topic. I'm curious to know what you hoped to accomplish from your little lecture to her?

IceCream Wrote:i remember being genuinely shocked when i 1st realised that japan wasn't really ALL made of neon lights and toilets that do weird things.

but, it is still weird. I think the most interesting things about any country is the way its different from where you are. The UK doesn't have any red telephone boxes or the sex pistols any more either, and the queen doesn't play any role in my life. But, i can see why other people are interested in these kinds of cultural stereotypes. The cultural stereotypes of any other country kind of are quite intriguing. Though, it does get annoying if your always asked about them too, so, i can see the point...

after a while you get used to the differences so you cant see them so much any more, but when you first watch anime or drama in japanese, i think there is that kind of weird-other feeling to it, because its something that just wouldn't be made here. maybe something like gavin & stacy would give the same feeling to someone not british...

Word. Although, we don't really need 'stereotypes' per se for this appreciation. (Or nationality or geography, as I tried to convince Momus once or twice... )

@kioku

Cute. Though..... looky

At first I was just gonna give this a single word reply, seeing as you just took what I did and tried to turn it around (what I gather from your post).

kioku3 Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Now I have some questions for you.

Why do you assume the burden of ambassador?

Many (most?) people are proud of their native culture and want their country to be shown in a positive light. I'm not sure why you find that hard to understand. You yourself said earlier in your post that you preferred America to be seen as weird than violent, imperialistic, fat, etc.

This comment was just my way of illustrating that there are worse things to be called and worse ways to be seen. Regardless of how a person wants his or her country to be seen, passive attempts aren't going to change much.

aijin Wrote:why do people think the various quirks of Japanese culture apply to our entire population?

I then attempted to answer this question.

kioku Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:Why would you enter a store a with such fetish oriented paraphernalia?

It's a store with various items from Japanese pop culture. She mentioned the fetish items were in a small section of art books on the middle floor. Your question makes me wonder if you read what she said carefully or if you bothered to click the link she gave.

http://www.newpeopleworld.com/goods/

I can read. That was a joke. Humour. Laugh stupid. @_@

Edit: And also....SHE!? Keeping track of who has what parts is getting confusing now.

kioku Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:What do you hope to accomplish with this rant?

She clearly said she wanted people's thoughts and opinions about this topic. I'm curious to know what you hoped to accomplish from your little lecture to her?

I want to find out the purpose of this rant. At it's core a rant is a complaint. A complaint stems from a general dissatisfaction in a one area or another. People's opinions can be asked without such a large rant and so I'm compelled to ask why. Also, the OP seemed to be expressing some sort of burden with the issue, and quite explicitly so.

Problem solving is one of my natural inclinations, and so, instead of trying to relate to the issue by telling stories of how shocked I am about the ignorance of the world, I asked questions with the intention of gaining a better understanding of the OPs perspective, so that I can attempt to reshape it, cause I'm sneaky sneaky. While I don't have any degrees yet, cognitive psychology is an area I have a deep interest in, and unfortunately it comes out from time to time in ordinary situations like this.

I do hope I've answered your questions thoroughly ^^.

IceCream Wrote:true... but, cultural stereotypes are kind of like urban myths... interesting as a phenomenon in themselves. On the whole, when its not put to any racist or discriminatory use, i quite like their existance for some reason.

Is it tea time, yet?

By the way, still on a tangent as I'm rambling a lot this week and this thread reminded me of how learning Japanese is part of a larger personal project, but this slightly dated book also seems interesting:

http://books.google.com/books?id=C2as0sW...q=&f=false - The myth of continents: a critique of metageography

harhol Wrote:It's basically caused by a combination of...

1) Outdated imperialistic 19th century Orientalist attitudes which are still hugely pervasive (despite the best efforts of Edward Said and others), specifically the notion that everything 'East' is the absolute opposite of everything 'West'. A lot of Americans like to think of the US as the home of sound morals, common sense and conservative values, so of course Japan must be the total opposite of that (*facepalm*).

Respect.

Don't forget the tendency for Japanese or, the 'orientalisee' generally speaking, to subject themselves to a lower standard and to look up at the 'orientaliser', placing them on this invincible pedestal that no other culture is superior to theirs (the orientaliser). This sort of thing is very common in these types of situations, it's a psychological mis-hap.
"If they won the war, they colonised us, the*must* be better in every way and form, let us try mimic them and only show their good side to our citizens".

Aijin Wrote:I suppose my question is: why do people think the various quirks of Japanese culture apply to our entire population? Why do people focus on these things so much? I've met so many people who think that panty-selling-vending-machines, tentacle porn, extremely weird sexual fetishes etc are the norm in Japan. It drives me crazy having to convince people sometimes that NO, the country is NOT like that.

Sorry for the mini-rant. Anyone have thoughts/opinions?

Meh, it goes both ways. I can't count the amount of times that I've had to explain that No, not all Americans live in Los Angeles or New York, we don't eat hamburgers three meals a day, and that just because I'm from the Midwest doesn't mean I live in a log cabin.


I think the crazy sexual stuff gets sensationalized because I think, on a whole, that Americans tend to be fairly conservative about such issues when compared to other cultures... so things like panty vending machines and crazy fetishes do just sound really crazy and off the wall when we hear about them. It's a bit scandalous to us, and I think that's why it get so much attention.

kazelee Wrote:@kioku

Cute. Though..... looky

********

I can read. That was a joke. Humour. Laugh stupid. @_@

********
Problem solving is one of my natural inclinations, and so, instead of trying to relate to the issue by telling stories of how shocked I am about the ignorance of the world, I asked questions with the intention of gaining a better understanding of the OPs perspective, so that I can attempt to reshape it, cause I'm sneaky sneaky.

Sorry for being stupid, Mr. Moderator. I should have noted the smiley face you used to identify the joke. I guess by that time I was irritated by comments which didn't seem to be an earnest attempt to "gain a better perspective of the OPs perspective" at all but as an opportunity to practice a sort of smug Socratic-like questioning. It may have seemed sneaky, sneaky to you, but struck me as obvious and patronizing. Perhaps you are reshaping many worldviews this way though--carry on.

I'm done with my "cute" comments. Back to lurker mode.

kioku Wrote:Sorry for being stupid, Mr. Moderator.

It's an expression. Don't take it to heart (if you are).

kioku3 Wrote:It may have seemed sneaky, sneaky to you, but struck me as obvious and patronizing. Perhaps you are reshaping many worldviews this way though--carry on.

Happens to the best of us.

Quote:I'm done with my "cute" comments. Back to lurker mode.

What? No kiss goodbye?

Seriously though. Stick around. I like your unique brand of sarcasm/wit.

Yo Aijin, that's noting. Check sankakucomplex.com

Aijin Wrote:I've met so many people who think that panty-selling-vending-machines, tentacle porn, extremely weird sexual fetishes etc are the norm in Japan. It drives me crazy having to convince people sometimes that NO, the country is NOT like that.

I mean, a lot of people in America would have problems with the sex industry in Japan even if it was portrayed correctly, wouldn't they?

Especially in manga porn, it's popular to portray schoolgirls having sex, very often wearing middle school outfits (rather than high school, which many Americans would find more acceptable), and you can find comics that do this in many many convenience stores throughout Japan. Even for me, a non-religious relatively loose moralist when it comes to sex, this pretty often sets off my "This is just pedophilia" alarm. Try putting even a single porn in an American convenience store that seems to be portraying a middle school girl (even if it's a cartoon, or the actress is 18), and see the reaction.

Also, walk through a book-off or something in Japan and look at all the dirty manga. A whole lot of them have girls who didn't really want to have sex at first, but then they come to like it. A lot of times it is quite straightforward rape, but other times it's a much more blurred portrayal. Either way, this is gonna piss off a lot of feminists in other countries (of course, porn like this does exist in America, but it's not nearly as common, and yet still many people get angry about it).

Actually, I think women are actually treated better in America than in Japan, and this isn't just ideas expressed by comic books and porn. This is especially true when it comes to sexual rights and freedoms.

But, I'm interested in others' opinions on these things--I don't have time to think too much about this right now so I'm letting it be a dialectic, haha.

Wow wow wow
the porn/women status is one of the most difficult subject about japan .
I m not saying that there are not some serious problem but when you look in the detail it s so overly complex that it deserves something better than a juge-lynch-trial. Screw feminist!
they don t know f... about japan .They re only concerned about a THEORIC SYSTEM as the "ism" in feminism implies.And god knows how systemist are the worst.
One example among many , freudian psychology has been proven largely ineffective in japan.

It is marvelous that Freudian psychology has proven ineffective in Japan.