@ kyotokanji re Freud: Indeed. [edit: er...assuming we even have the same thing in mind.]

ghinzdra Wrote:the porn/women status is one of the most difficult subject about japan .
I m not saying that there are not some serious problem but when you look in the detail it s so overly complex that it deserves something better than a juge-lynch-trial. Screw feminist! they don t know f... about japan. They re only concerned about a THEORIC SYSTEM as the "ism" in feminism implies.And god knows how systemist are the worst.

*There are Japanese feminists. They seem to have a decent understanding of Japan and are fully aware of the myriad approaches to the problem. I don't know that anyone would characterize Japan as having a problem with "judge-lynch-trials". Care to explain?

*"Feminist" means different things to different people. To you it seems to mean radical, academic feminist theorist that you perceive as being too aggressive or impractical. (Possibly a reaction to your first exposure to the theory in law school?) To many, it simply means fairness between the sexes - that men and women should be treated equality and have the same rights. Using this definition, I suspect you too are feminist!

*Extreme statements about cartoon categories (all feminists bad, all theory bad) are kind of meaningless and boring (unless it's great comedy or satire!). I can't tell if you're just venting or attempting to provoke discussion.

*"Screw feminists!" - Interesting choice of words. How many brilliant lightbulbs does it take to screw a feminist? Or was it dim lightbulbs...

Thora Wrote:To many, it simply means fairness between the sexes - that men and women should be treated equality and have the same rights. Using this definition, I suspect you too are feminist!

Stop spreading your lies. My brain, she can't handle it.

Get it away....

Quote:"Screw feminists!" - Interesting choice of words. How many brilliant lightbulbs does it take to screw a feminist? Or was it dim lightbulbs...

If what you say it true... not many

Kazalee, how I must frustrate you. Yet again playing Ambassador for group I don't even belong too! I thought I might look next for some artistic/black/toe-keyboardist/tall/Japanese-speaking/bodybuilders who are feeling oppressed .... xo

Tzadeck, you mentioned manga/obscenity. There's an interesting U.S. case in which a comic collector was arrested for (and confessed to) importing material with sexual depictions of minors. He didn't attempt an artistic content defense (being a collector might help him out) because they didn't think any jury would be able to get past the extreme deviance and violence of the content. Apparently this is the first time this law has been applied to comics. Some take the view that "no actual kids were hurt in the making of this comic." Others see the harm from such depictions as more broad and indirect.

Unfortunately, the comics are from Japan, so this story also fed the general weirdness bias in the media you guys were talking about. [edit: removed the word for sex with animals - thought it might attract the attention of office filters or fans]

Stereotypes are just that, images filling in for a lack of knowledge.

Talking to one of the Japanese exchange people here, casually asked what Kurosawa movies she liked and was met with a total blank stare.
Although I got to return favour a couple days later when she bumped into me in the library and asked if I could recommend some Shakespeare, ex english schoolkid, in no way shape or form can I recommend Shakespeare.

Stereotypes, they exist and must be dealt with. I hate the UK stereotype of the tea and crumpets crap, but its not going to go away.

Unless people actually meet and know people from different places and cultures, the stereotypes will remain as a substitute because they have nothing else to base it on, and for it to be a stereotype, there must be a grain of truth in it somehow.
(Says the English kid about to put the kettle on for a cup of tea while I study)

Sorry for reviving this thread, but this video seemed appropriate for it, has anyone seen it?

This is the original Japanese version:

Nemotoad Wrote:Sorry for reviving this thread, but this video seemed appropriate for it, has anyone seen it?

This is the original Japanese version:

I've seen it a couple of days ago and its just another "go green" propaganda disguised as infotainment.

Nothing wrong about wasting less resources or food but somehow I can't believe eco-terrorists will stop there.

Oh well - the reason I found it odd/interesting is because it was made by a Japanese artist, originally for a Japanese audience. I'm actually not quite sure what the end statement is supposed to be - there is a bit about wasting food and water but I'm not sure that it's purely a "go green" kind of thing. Seems like it makes use of a lot of stereotypes to be from a "foreigner's" perspective, and some of the statistics and visuals are a bit of a kick in the gut (like the suicide ones). He apparently initially posted an English version on Vimeo (see: http://vimeo.com/10305194), and then took it down after negative feedback.

Tzadeck Wrote:I mean, a lot of people in America would have problems with the sex industry in Japan even if it was portrayed correctly, wouldn't they?

This is something that bothers me too. I don't use safe search, so I'm used to seeing some sort of porn in Google image search no matter what I type in. It's the same for Japanese queries, except the "porn" more often involves cartoon characters that look about 10.

Apparently such depictions are not uncommon in certain types of manga, anime and games. Even in mainstream anime it's not uncommon to see characters between 12-15 (or younger) being depicted in questionable ways. There's been talk about a bill to regulate how old characters look, but I don't believe it's been passed. What's more disturbing is the fact that it's not illegal to possess child pornography of any kind in Japan.

There's probably a weird Japan stereotype in the UK too. In a country where pornography depicting rape is illegal, when stories about an エロゲーム where you score bonuses for impregnating the schoolgirl you rape are published, I doubt it does much to change people's minds. When it comes to depictions of rape, that's barely the tip of the iceberg though.

When it comes to TV programs focusing on things like ダッチワイフ brothels, cross-dressing as schoolgirls, pornography involving eels etc, then I agree about the crazy sensationalising. You don't need western TV producers to exaggerate rape and ロリコン though, you just need exposure to a handful of Japanese films and anime.

thurd Wrote:

Nemotoad Wrote:Sorry for reviving this thread, but this video seemed appropriate for it, has anyone seen it?

This is the original Japanese version:

I've seen it a couple of days ago and its just another "go green" propaganda disguised as infotainment.

Nothing wrong about wasting less resources or food but somehow I can't believe eco-terrorists will stop there.

As I understand it, they want to use energy drinks to turn us all into animals. I saw it on the news here in Japan. That, or it was a Shin Chan movie, I can't really tell the difference.

Javizy Wrote:

Tzadeck Wrote:I mean, a lot of people in America would have problems with the sex industry in Japan even if it was portrayed correctly, wouldn't they?

This is something that bothers me too. I don't use safe search, so I'm used to seeing some sort of porn in Google image search no matter what I type in. It's the same for Japanese queries, except the "porn" more often involves cartoon characters that look about 10.

Apparently such depictions are not uncommon in certain types of manga, anime and games. Even in mainstream anime it's not uncommon to see characters between 12-15 (or younger) being depicted in questionable ways. There's been talk about a bill to regulate how old characters look, but I don't believe it's been passed. What's more disturbing is the fact that it's not illegal to possess child pornography of any kind in Japan.

There's probably a weird Japan stereotype in the UK too. In a country where pornography depicting rape is illegal, when stories about an エロゲーム where you score bonuses for impregnating the schoolgirl you rape are published, I doubt it does much to change people's minds. When it comes to depictions of rape, that's barely the tip of the iceberg though.

When it comes to TV programs focusing on things like ダッチワイフ brothels, cross-dressing as schoolgirls, pornography involving eels etc, then I agree about the crazy sensationalising. You don't need western TV producers to exaggerate rape and ロリコン though, you just need exposure to a handful of Japanese films and anime.

You could work for CNN.

Javizy Wrote:Apparently such depictions are not uncommon in certain types of manga, anime and games. Even in mainstream anime it's not uncommon to see characters between 12-15 (or younger) being depicted in questionable ways. There's been talk about a bill to regulate how old characters look, but I don't believe it's been passed.

It would be horrible if such bill would pass. There's fighting child pornography and then there's being stupid.

Pedophiles commit a serious and real crime that hurts (on many different levels) another human being and they should be and usually (except church officials) are punished. Even if its just fapping to jpg pictures on a computer its still a crime through the law of supply and demand, but it is less severe since actually nobody is directly hurt from this.

But show me the crime in a guy drawing/buying/possessing/watching cartoons with "illegal" material? There is none, nobody gets hurt in the process. Then there are other problems with this, if you suggest such material might encourage him to commit a crime of that nature and this is the ground for making material illegal then you've just created a legal monster under which you can ban virtually anything. That transformers movie you've just watched? Sorry illegal, it has violence in it and it might encourage you. News about a rapist in your neighborhood? Sorry illegal, it might give you the idea raping is good. Agatha Christie novel about a murderer? Illegal, killing is bad. Tom and Jerry? Illegal, it might lure you to bash your friend with a hammer. Do you see where I'm going with this? Its ridiculous!! Who will say whats good and bad? And why would anyone be entitled to make such decisions?

All this would create is a nanny state where government tells you whats wrong and right for you (anyone can say China) because if you think its going to stop there you are very very naive.

I think it was recently in Australia where a ban for pr0n with women with small breasts was created ("think of the children"). If I was a girl with small breasts there I'd sue their ass off for discrimination, if I were a guy/husband that has a wife with small breasts I'd punch the guy who proposed such bill and then sue their ass off. By passing this they basically called lots of women "inadequate" and their partners "pedophiles". It is just insane!!

Lots of discussions about this subject can be found on slashdot, there is no point making the same points here.

thurd Wrote:It would be horrible if such bill would pass. There's fighting child pornography and then there's being stupid.

Pedophiles commit a serious and real crime that hurts (on many different levels) another human being and they should be and usually (except church officials) are punished. Even if its just fapping to jpg pictures on a computer its still a crime through the law of supply and demand, but it is less severe since actually nobody is directly hurt from this.

But show me the crime in a guy drawing/buying/possessing/watching cartoons with "illegal" material? There is none, nobody gets hurt in the process. Then there are other problems with this, if you suggest such material might encourage him to commit a crime of that nature and this is the ground for making material illegal then you've just created a legal monster under which you can ban virtually anything. That transformers movie you've just watched? Sorry illegal, it has violence in it and it might encourage you. News about a rapist in your neighborhood? Sorry illegal, it might give you the idea raping is good. Agatha Christie novel about a murderer? Illegal, killing is bad. Tom and Jerry? Illegal, it might lure you to bash your friend with a hammer. Do you see where I'm going with this? Its ridiculous!! Who will say whats good and bad? And why would anyone be entitled to make such decisions?

All this would create is a nanny state where government tells you whats wrong and right for you (anyone can say China) because if you think its going to stop there you are very very naive.

I believe a similar law is already in effect in the US and other countries. I'm not exactly qualified to speculate about the potential effects of such laws, or indeed the effects of the material itself. I will say, though, that in Japan, where this sort of material seems to be so widespread, leaving it unregulated seems to send the message that it's okay, which I don't think is entirely correct. Whether or not changes in the law are the answer I don't know, but I don't think the Japanese web should remain saturated with images of naked 10 year olds, whether they're real or not.

Javizy Wrote:I believe a similar law is already in effect in the US and other countries. I'm not exactly qualified to speculate about the potential effects of such laws, or indeed the effects of the material itself. I will say, though, that in Japan, where this sort of material seems to be so widespread, leaving it unregulated seems to send the message that it's okay, which I don't think is entirely correct. Whether or not changes in the law are the answer I don't know, but I don't think the Japanese web should remain saturated with images of naked 10 year olds, whether they're real or not.

From what I've learned its not exactly okay and considered normal in Japan. It is available and legal but I don't think they are parading proudly with a ロリコン manga. Otaku has a negative meaning for a reason. (some insight from Japan dwellers would be appreciated)

Some people are afraid of having a choice and even more afraid of giving that right to anyone else.

I just don't want to succumb to idiocy just because somebody has issues (moral, religious or whatever), its their problem and they have no right to restrain my freedoms. As long as its not hurting anybody it should be legal (drugs, guns, porn), what we should work on is finding and punishing those that abuse that what is legal.

Javizy Wrote:This is something that bothers me too. I don't use safe search, so I'm used to seeing some sort of porn in Google image search no matter what I type in. It's the same for Japanese queries, except the "porn" more often involves cartoon characters that look about 10.

Just FYI given your From line, possession of those sort of images would make you guilty of an offence (a serious one!) in the UK since last week. Luckily it is a defence if you can prove you were sent it "without any prior request", which probably covers unexpected image search results, although you'd still have to do the proving.

pm215 Wrote:

Javizy Wrote:This is something that bothers me too. I don't use safe search, so I'm used to seeing some sort of porn in Google image search no matter what I type in. It's the same for Japanese queries, except the "porn" more often involves cartoon characters that look about 10.

Just FYI given your From line, possession of those sort of images would make you guilty of an offence (a serious one!) in the UK since last week. Luckily it is a defence if you can prove you were sent it "without any prior request", which probably covers unexpected image search results, although you'd still have to do the proving.

I thought there was some talk about it, but I didn't know it'd actually been passed. I wonder how much trouble your cache could actually get you into.

thurd Wrote:Some people are afraid of having a choice and even more afraid of giving that right to anyone else.

I just don't want to succumb to idiocy just because somebody has issues (moral, religious or whatever), its their problem and they have no right to restrain my freedoms. As long as its not hurting anybody it should be legal (drugs, guns, porn), what we should work on is finding and punishing those that abuse that what is legal.

You can speculate about the negative impact of laws of this nature, but all this specific law in its essence would do is restrict your one freedom to view non-photographic paedophilic images. You'll forgive me, and no doubt most people, for not being very sympathetic about that. Whether or not your fears are well grounded remains to be seen, I guess. In the UK and US at least.

Javizy Wrote:You can speculate about the negative impact of laws of this nature, but all this specific law in its essence would do is restrict your one freedom to view non-photographic paedophilic images. You'll forgive me, and no doubt most people, for not being very sympathetic about that. Whether or not your fears are well grounded remains to be seen, I guess. In the UK and US at least.

I could live without that freedom (most people would) but the problem is it won't stop there. Next time somebody will be bothered by porn or violence or loud music and I'd like to have those things available

Being sympathetic has nothing to do with this, you're invading somebody else's private space just because you have a different view than him. I say anyone can do whatever he wants in the privacy of his home, I might not like it or even feel disgusted by it but I believe he has a right to do it.

Generally these kind of arguments are very hard to defend without looking as "the one defending pedophiles" and its better to use a less controversial example. But this also shows how emotionally this case is treated and how it affects reason and logic and laws should be based on them.

kyotokanji Wrote:

Youtube seems to have removed the vid. Out of curiosity do you remember the name so I can track it down through other totally innocent means.

thurd Wrote:if I were a guy/husband that has a wife with small breasts I'd punch the guy who proposed such bill and then sue their ass off.

Once you punched the guy in the face I think you'd be the one getting sued.

Quote:Generally these kind of arguments are very hard to defend without looking as "the one defending pedophiles" and its better to use a less controversial example.

The major flaw in this entire discussion is assuming to know the sexual orientation of an individual possessing such images. It goes back to your talk on tom and jerry and transformers.

javizy Wrote:You'll forgive me, and no doubt most people, for not being very sympathetic about that.

So that makes it right? I had a friend who's going to jail for possession of marijuana. Some guy was running from the cops and threw his shit to my friend. My friend saw the cops, panicked and ran. Now he's facing possession and fleeing charges. Those people who don't have any sympathy only create more anarchy.

So how about those スカート男子? I think it's pretty cool.

http://www.japantrends.com/unisex-fashio...kirt-boom/

Edit: Bah, I'm supposed to be taking a break from the forum.

Tzadeck Wrote:Also, walk through a book-off or something in Japan and look at all the dirty manga.

Yet the people who would be most against this are the same ones fueling the paparazzi and drooling over rumors that the president is gay from the tabloids and getting their three-year-olds in to R-rated movies because violence is okay so long as there aren't any (whisper: boobies) then getting them rampantly obese at McDonald's. Yeah, hyperbole.

It's a cultural difference, sure. But it's different, not better or worse.

Here's some stuff I found on the topic of Japan and 'dirty manga':

http://books.google.com/books?id=Loug6sb...&q&f=false - This book notes Akira Fukushima on the topic of crime stats, but here's another paper: http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articl...japan.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=iEeHTog...ip&f=false

This book seems to have more: http://books.google.com/books?id=ZBuAkps...navlinks_s

Let's also not forget how decapitating people and using their heads as flashlights is A-ok!

Evil_Dragon Wrote:Let's also not forget how decapitating people and using their heads as flashlights is A-ok!

HUH!?

What movie/show/comic is this from?

Where can I find it?

kazelee Wrote:

Evil_Dragon Wrote:Let's also not forget how decapitating people and using their heads as flashlights is A-ok!

HUH!?

What movie/show/comic is this from?

Where can I find it?

God of War 3, made in the good ol' USA.

The head continues to scream in agony every time you use it, too. But clearly, Japan is the country that's just plain weird.