In Tae Kim and a couple of other grammar sources I've read, のに is explained to be a contrasting conjunction between two sentences (even though X, still Y). But recently, I've run into sentences that don't seem to fit this interpretation at all, so I've tried to find more exhaustive explanations, but have come up with nothing. Here are some simple example sentences taken from Tanaka Corpus that illustrate the usage that has befuddled me.

駅へ着くのに５分かかった。(It took five minutes to get to the station.)

This clearly seems like a different のに than the one described in Tae Kim. Another example:

その水は飲むのに不適当だ。(That water is not suitable for drinking.)

Since this is Tanaka we are talking about, I thought that these might be mistranslated, but I've ran into similar patterns "in the wild" where there seems to be no contradiction involved. It seems like in these instances the のに is used just to make the preceding verb sentence the topic of the following sentence, but how is it different from using のは? (e.g. 駅へ着くのは５分かかった。)

it's not のに here it's more like (verb)の<--にxxx so you're right here it doesn't mean "although" at all. When you add の on to the end of a verb you're then talking about "the act of" doing that verb and of course に here functions like it usually does indicating that what is about to come next is in reference to what's on the other side of the に

Thanks! I knew about using の after a verb to turn it into a noun, but this is what tripped me up:

mezbup Wrote:of course に here functions like it usually does indicating that what is about to come next is in reference to what's on the other side of the に

The above examples don't feel like other sentence patterns where I'm used to seeing the に particle used (target for a motion action etc.). For example the sentence about the water: when the verb sentence turns into a noun it basically becomes　(noun) に (noun) だ, which I haven't seen used unless the first noun functions as an adverb.

shang Wrote:Thanks! I knew about using の after a verb to turn it into a noun, but this is what tripped me up:

mezbup Wrote:of course に here functions like it usually does indicating that what is about to come next is in reference to what's on the other side of the に

The above examples don't feel like other sentence patterns where I'm used to seeing the に particle used (target for a motion action etc.). For example the sentence about the water: when the verb sentence turns into a noun it basically becomes　(noun) に (noun) だ, which I haven't seen used unless the first noun functions as an adverb.

不適当 is used there as an adjective. Try not to overthink details about grammar though. This particular pattern sometimes trips me up when listening to a sentence because it can take a sec to work out which way のに is being used but with increasing exposure it's just something you get used to.

Both uses of のに can appear after verbs so don't rely on that to tell them apart. Look for a contrast, or lack there of.

For example it can appear in the contrastive use with the same verb tense as your examples: 彼はたくさん食べるのに太りません。 It's contrastive, so it means "although" or "despite" of ~.

Whereas the verb のに in your examples means "in order to" or "for" ~.

As for the difference with のは:

その水は飲むのに不適当だ = that water is unfit for drinking
その水は飲むのは不適当だ = that water, drinking (it) is inappropriate

shang Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:of course に here functions like it usually does indicating that what is about to come next is in reference to what's on the other side of the に

The above examples don't feel like other sentence patterns where I'm used to seeing the に particle used (target for a motion action etc.).

I was taught this のに usage as a particular grammar pattern, rather than as just being the combination of の with に . You might find it easier to think of that way, and it does have some specific restrictions which make it more than just the sum of its parts: (a) the verb before it has to be the plain dictionary form and (b) what comes after is limited to things like 使う、必要だ、不可能、3時間かかった and the like.

Quote:For example the sentence about the water: when the verb sentence turns into a noun it basically becomes　(noun) に (noun) だ, which I haven't seen used unless the first noun functions as an adverb.

My grammar reference gives this as an equivalent usage with nounに rather than verbのに:

Quote:辞書は語学の勉強に必要だ。

shang Wrote:In Tae Kim and a couple of other grammar sources I've read, のに is explained to be a contrasting conjunction between two sentences (even though X, still Y). But recently, I've run into sentences that don't seem to fit this interpretation at all, so I've tried to find more exhaustive explanations, but have come up with nothing. Here are some simple example sentences taken from Tanaka Corpus that illustrate the usage that has befuddled me.

駅へ着くのに５分かかった。(It took five minutes to get to the station.)

This clearly seems like a different のに than the one described in Tae Kim. Another example:

その水は飲むのに不適当だ。(That water is not suitable for drinking.)

Since this is Tanaka we are talking about, I thought that these might be mistranslated, but I've ran into similar patterns "in the wild" where there seems to be no contradiction involved. It seems like in these instances the のに is used just to make the preceding verb sentence the topic of the following sentence, but how is it different from using のは? (e.g. 駅へ着くのは５分かかった。)

You should buy "All About Particles". It's very good book for answering these kind of questions.

You can preview parts of the book at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=F9tbADW...q=&f=false

Unfortunately, the section covering のに is not shown.

mezbup Wrote:The above examples don't feel like other sentence patterns where I'm used to seeing the に particle used (target for a motion action etc.).

JSL relates this to the use of に in phrases like 私にできる. Perhaps also 買い物に行く.

"All About Particles" lists 3 different uses for のに:

1)Used between 2 clauses to indicate that they are opposite in meaning" "although, even though, despite the fact that."

池田さんは風邪で咳ガ出るのにタバコばかり吸っています。
Even though Ikeda is coughing from a cold, all he does is smoke cigarettes [he is (still) smoking all the time]

山本さんのパーテイーには行かないと言ったのに、どうして行くんですか。
You said you wouldn't go to Yamamoto's party, so why are you going?
Why are you going to Yamamoto's party when you said you wouldn't?


2)Used at the end of a sentence, indicates a feeling of dissatisfaction: "despite the fact that, even though." NOTE: Usage is essentially the same as No. 1 above, except that the second clause isn't stated outright.

勉強をしなさいと言ったのに。。。。
Despite the fact that I told you to study [you didn't, and are now in hot water]

交通事故を起こさないように気をつけていたのに。。。。
Even though I tried to be careful so as not to have an accident.....

3) "To, in order to."

ここから湖へ行くのに何時間ぐらいかかりますか。
In order to get from here to the lake, about how many hours does it take?
How long does it take from here to the lake?

漢字を覚えるのにいい方法を教えて下さい。
Please tell me a good way to learn kanji

So the sample sentences you gave use the 3rd usage pattern ("to" or "in order to").

Basically, they'd translate to:

In order to reach the station, it took 5 minutes.

This water, for (the purpose of) drinking, is not suitable. (or you can loosely translate it as "this water is not suitable for drinking")

Yep, it seems perfectly clear now. Thanks everybody!

I ordered the "All about Particles" book too. Seems like an excellent reference for these kind of things.

My go-to reference book is A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar (Makino and Tsutsui; Japan Times). The first example sentence for the のに entry is:

毎日漢字を勉強しているのによく覚えられない。
Although I'm studying kanji every day, I cannot memorize them very well.

That one's definitely going in my sentence deck.

The のに use the original poster had is DBJG's "noni 2"; the one you've just quoted an example for is "noni 1"... (I agree that if you don't know "noni 1" yet then it's probably more useful to learn first, though.)

I like this sentence more for its content than for the grammar point. I'm always on the lookout for sentences I'm likely to use IRL.

BJohnsen Wrote:毎日漢字を勉強しているのによく覚えられない。
Although I'm studying kanji every day, I cannot memorize them very well.

Uhm, it sounds weird to me. I'd use くせに in this sentence.

毎日漢字を勉強しているのにすぐ覚えられる。
Feels better.

@magamo, help please?

mentat_kgs Wrote:

BJohnsen Wrote:毎日漢字を勉強しているのによく覚えられない。
Although I'm studying kanji every day, I cannot memorize them very well.

Uhm, it sounds weird to me. I'd use くせに in this sentence.

毎日漢字を勉強しているのにすぐ覚えられる。
Feels better.

@magamo, help please?

のに has to lead to a contrasting phrase, not a supporting one. くせに is a little different, I think, but I'm not sure how to explain it.

Just pasting the first google hit phrases for 勉強しているのに:
勉強しているのに全く分からない、すぐに忘れる
勉強しているのに、テストで点が反映されない学生もいます
勉強しているのに「勉強ぜんぜんしてないし」とか言う人、いましたよね
一生懸命勉強しているのに、なぜ成績があがらないのですか?
勉強しているのに成績が上がらない
英語を勉強しているのに成果が上がらない！
周りの人よりも一生懸命勉強しているのに成績は平均以下
勉強しているのに成績があがらない人へ

All of these are contrasting phrases, not supporting ones.

(Incidentally, if you change to 勉強するのに you can see examples of the other definition being talked about in this thread:
FPGAを勉強するのに良いサイトの紹介
PHP を勉強するのにオススメ書籍の10冊
勉強するのに時間も金も必要ない
電子回路を勉強するのに良い本 - 教えて！
教えて！スポニチ 韓国語を独学で勉強するのに、お勧めのテキスト

I didn't even know this second meaning existed until I saw it when I was teaching from JSL, and this was after I passed 1kyuu -- it's amazing what you can be totally ignorant of and still make general sense of things.)

Yeah, I've been googling it myself too and I'm very surprised with what I've found. I'll pay more attention on its next apearences.

yudantaiteki Wrote:のに has to lead to a contrasting phrase, not a supporting one. くせに is a little different, I think, but I'm not sure how to explain it.

While my J-E dictionary gives the same definitions for のに and くせに, it notes that のに
is "used to link two clauses, which are in contrast or opposition. Often implies dissatisfaction", and that くせに is "usually belittling or disparaging". Accordingly, either would be correct in my example sentence, but it would be interesting to hear from a native speaker whether either one is 'textbook correct' but sounds odd IRL.

BTW, my original post was meant to be....well, humorous.....because, you know, this whole forum is about Remembering The Kanji?.....OK, nevermind. I can't tell jokes, either.

mentat_kgs Wrote:

BJohnsen Wrote:毎日漢字を勉強しているのによく覚えられない。
Although I'm studying kanji every day, I cannot memorize them very well.

Uhm, it sounds weird to me. I'd use くせに in this sentence.

毎日漢字を勉強しているのにすぐ覚えられる。
Feels better.

@magamo, help please?

毎日漢字を勉強しているのによく覚えられない。is fine. The person who is studying kanji everyday may or may not be the speaker. It can be a neutral statement, but it might imply certain kind of frustration depending on your tone of voice.

For example, if you say it referring to yourself, it can sound like you're frustrated by your lack of aptitude, the complexity of Asian characters, etc. If you're talking about another guy studying kanji, you might mean he should know more kanji considering the fact that he's learning kanji everyday. And you might be frustrated by his poor studying skills, the difficulty of the Japanese language, and so on.

毎日漢字を勉強しているくせによく覚えられない。is similar, but usually you use this when you talk about another person who is studying kanji. The biggest difference in nuance between のに and くせに versions is that the latter implies that you don't like the guy.

For example, you might use it when the guy's always preaching the importance of studying everyday and you're annoyed by his arrogant attitude. In this typical くせに situation, you want to imply "The annoying guy's always saying we must study kanji everyday, but in reality his kanji ability sucks harder." Another situation is that you have a low opinion of Asian languages and want to imply "Look at the looser. He studies the stupid writing system everyday and still sucks at it." You can use it as a self-loathing sentence, but it's kind of rare.

In short, くせに always implies you don't like the person (at least to an extent) while のに can be neutral. If you say the のに version in a frustrated way, the negative connotation doesn't necessarily represent your attitude towards the person. You might be wondering why he can't learn kanji well in spite of the fact that he's very good at other things, i.e., you might mean he could do better than that. The negative sense can be about a totally different thing such as complicated kanji having too many strokes, too.

Edit: 毎日漢字を勉強しているのにすぐ覚えられる。also makes sense, but it's meaning is something like "I study kanji everyday, but I can also learn other things pretty quickly." In this case, you may be assuming that kanji are so complicated they'd use up your brain power if you were a normal person.

Also, as Yudan pointed out, ので can be used when a sentence has a different kind of negative emotion than frustration. For example, のに in まだ小学生なのに、これは可哀想過ぎる。has "sadness," "sympathy," etc., though I suppose you could say that it's the neutral のに and that it's the following/omitted clause that has the negative sense.

Also when the sentence is left unfinished there's a big difference between 小学生なのに... and 小学生のくせに... (for instance).

yea they're differnet like
there's
するのに
＆
するの　に