How does everyone review their sentences. And how do you guys obtain your sentences. I'm currently using the core2000 sentences in anki with tae kims sentences. Im planning on working on KO2001 after i become more proficient.

So what do you guys recommend for someone who has just begone mining sentences, are my choices good?

Also what is your processes of studying your sentences. I must admit that i don't always write my sentences, which i feel a little bad for doing. But i try to most of the time. I write them only when I get them wrong. However this has caused a problem, because the Kanji are sometimes used as compounds for words. And I sometimes have trouble remembering all the compounds when trying to write out the word. But i thought to myself that input is way more important than output. Therefore its more important to read, then learn to write.

What are your opinions. How do you study? and what do you study?

peace.

Currently, I do Core2000 listening comprehension (no answer) and read-aloud with a very low leech threshold; I think it's 6 wrong answers. After I finish that, I'll reset my leeches, raise the threshold, and turn my listening comprehension into transcription. If it ends up taking too much time, I'll put a limit on how much time I spend transcribing. For example: first 10 minutes of review per day: full transcription; next 10, hardest characters only; remainder, no transcription.

Native sentences currently come from whatever I'm reading and dic.yahoo.co.jp (which also has bilingual sentences). I'm not too worried about finding sentences while I'm still learning new ones from Core2000, but if I see something cool, I'll pick it.

I've decided that Core2000 are my last bilingual sentences. They only need to get you to the point where you can understand some, not all, native sentences. I'm only half-way through, and I run across easy, i+1, monolingual sentences all the time now.

Afterwards, I'll set a goal for native sentences per day. Maybe I'll do monolingual Core6000 as well. Not sure yet.

I just review with Anki. Everything goes in one deck. I get my sentences from websites, blogs, manga, exactly sub-titled dramas, or official dictionaries.

My advice is to mine from fun things, not just "educational sources". Anything that is geared towards Japanese learners is probably not going to be as natural as something really aimed at native speakers of Japanese. Educational sources, like Tae Kim's and KO2001 have their place, but for me, it just gets too boring eventually. I need stuff relevant to the media I enjoy.

I just thought of a question that I found strange not to have asked before. Since ive just started out on this journey i want some success stories . Has anyone who has followed this method seen any results. I expect that after 8-12months of this going hardcore i should have reached a fairly reasonable level of fluency and should be nit picking words i have not seen before.

Please don't give me khatzumoto as evidence for the efficacy of this method. I want to see if other people besides him have had good results?

Its strange that i haven't looked into success stories... Hopefully you guys can help fix this

I've read many of them, which was why I started, of course it doesn't get you fluent alone, but I have read about many people growing their proficiency by leaps and bounds using this method otherwise I wouldn't have bothered picking it up ^^

I am against AJATT btw, but SRS and sentences in context is very important, especially withing the target area of the language you are interested in.

my 2 cents

I myself am against the sort of "I'm gonna totally master Japanese in such and such a timeframe!" bravado that too has the subtext "because otherwise I'm a failure." The approach I take is "success or failure, I'm going to be stubborn, keep advancing, and suck all the enjoyment I can out of this task that I possibly can."

I could be totally wrong, but I think that sort of mulishness is more important than technique. That's not to say you should accept boredom or inefficiency--if you notice those things, destroy them. But, without mulishness, without "show up, do it" I'm sure you won't go anywhere, no matter how funny the TV shows, engrossing the literature, or expensive the classes.

So, if you're looking for success stories, you're not in the right place to actually grow towards success. Time spent thinking about other people's success is wasted. Time thinking about your own success is probably wasted, too. Just do it, day by day. Be stubborn, have fun, let that be enough. You can't choose to have a high level of skill--so don't worry about it. You can only choose to be in the right situation, doing the right thing to improve that skill.

After five and a half months, I've found some success. My pronunciation is much better. I've finished RTK1 and started RTK3 and Core2000. Word order doesn't bother me. When I can understand something in Japanese, it's easier to do so than try to translate it. I have the occasional thought in Japanese.

But, more noticeable are the failures I've run into. I used to not understand anything. Now, understanding snatches highlights just how much I don't. I used to not be aware of the Japanese-language Web, now it makes me feel illiterate. I used to understand my computer's UI, now I don't.

Now that I'm on the mountain and really climbing, the trail is hard and the end isn't in sight. I have a belief that language acquisition leads to proficiency, just as I have a belief that summit trails actually lead to the summit. Maybe this isn't the best analogy, because I'm pretty sure there isn't a point when the scenery opens up and angels descend to the sound of trumpets unfurling a banner that reads "You are now fluent."

Not that that's exactly what happens when you reach a summit... anyway...

I have to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

I'm not sure if this is encouraging or discouraging. I think I've captured some of the truth of what language study is like, but I'm sure it's not the whole thing. By all means study hard if your spirit moves you--but do not sacrifice sustainability or the quiet joy that can always be found at your current level.

(and, that's enough English for today)

mastermx Wrote:Has anyone who has followed this method seen any results. I expect that after 8-12months of this going hardcore i should have reached a fairly reasonable level of fluency and should be nit picking words i have not seen before.

I assume the method you're talking about is AJATT or a variant? I think I can qualify myself as a success even though I'm not done yet.

ＡＪＡＴＴの方法とするかどうか分からない。　僕のために成功になると思う。　でも、今から勉強して続く。

Words of caution.

ご注意

For AJATT, I don't consider that a study method. I consider that putting Japanese in as many aspects of your life as you can. With that, I also think one can grow into AJATT and it work as well as jumping in full bore.

ＡＪＡＴＴは勉強の方法だと思わない。　日本文化と日本語を生活にいつもしていると考える。　だって、ＡＪＡＴＴにゆっくり行っているのは大丈夫と思う。

For the Sentence method, I consider this a study method and it varies depending on what you're using the sentences for. For vocabulary sentences, the simpler the better. It's just there to explain a word.

文章方法は勉強の方法だぜ。　理由によって文章が違う。　例えば、単語の文章は簡単なったら簡単なほどいいと思う。　その文章は単語の意味を説明させるの？　

Anyway, I know I suck, but I do suck a lot less than I did this summer. And that's with about 2 to 3 hours of study a night on average on top of just lots and lots of listening when I get home at night from work. Does it really count as success? Ok, I wouldn't think so since I want to go further (yeah, contradicting myself here). But I think it's become clearer that if I can finish off 8 or 12 or ever 16 more episodes of various J-Drama (and all the things that get added due to that), that I'll be native level fluent.

By the way, I have no real reason why I did both English and bad Japanese here. I think it dealt with you asking others to prove themselves. If you think about it, your level may not be at a point to tell if persons are good or not so what they say should be irrelevant. Hell, I can't tell you if Khatzumoto's posts are good Japanese (though I'm at a point that I do think he over kanjified stuff). However, I do know this:

Magamo - It was reading his posts written in FLUENT English, and the testimony that he did it via the English version of AJATT, that reinvigorated my feelings in it. See, I do know good English, and I can tell he had it.

Now, if a Japanese person can become that good at English using AEATT and subs2srs (and sentence mining RevTK) then it's damn good evidence that it'll work for me going the other way. My results since this summer seem to show this as true.

wildweathel & nukemarine:

thanks for your insightful and helpful comments. I just wanted to check that i was on the right track. It's just that i have never seen anyone that has used the sentence mining method and succeeded. And i ran into a little opposition to the method at the how-to-learn-any-language.com forums.

There are just so many different methods. And i wanted to make sure that i had picked the perfect one that gives a good value for time invested. And one that produces native-esque fluency.

You could use hand picked sentences too. It is not very good in the very beginning but after some point (around 1000 sentences?) it started to become crucial.

mastermx Wrote:wildweathel & nukemarine:

thanks for your insightful and helpful comments. I just wanted to check that i was on the right track. It's just that i have never seen anyone that has used the sentence mining method and succeeded. And i ran into a little opposition to the method at the how-to-learn-any-language.com forums.

There are just so many different methods. And i wanted to make sure that i had picked the perfect one that gives a good value for time invested. And one that produces native-esque fluency.

Well, I also do the "sentence method" Although, I only really spend about 1 hour SRS'ing everyday. I'm been doing this for almost 19 months now, but did I succeed? That's a hard question to answer. I can read pretty much anything(Psychology, Physics, Business, etc). If people ask me if I'm fluent, I say no(Though in some ways I am already ).

Now, whether the sentence method was the magical tool is a different story. I'm where I'm at because I read Japanese so much, too much actually. I'm talking about at least 5 hours a day.

You know what the best method is:
1) Always read out loud. The more senses you use the better. When you read out lead, you are speaking in Japanese, listening to Japanese and reading in Japanese. It can't get any better than that.

2) Learn things for the long term. Put things in your SRS and go. Even if you forgert things, who cares! In the long term, you will know it eventually.

3)Stop relying on English. If you want to look up a recipe, then look it up in Japanese

4)Stimulate your sense. It's kind of similar to 1). I'm not sure whether you are a guy or not but if you are try to go read about nampa. If you want, I can send you a pdf.
Well, just read anything that stimulates your senses. How about a sex book in Japanese lol? I'm not joking btw.

5) Have a purpose!
Don't learn Japanese. From the start, use Japanese to learn something. Make it your goal to learn something like Psychology or whatever. In this way, learning Japanese becomes a byproduct of learning Psychology(because you read it in Japanese). Of course, in the beginning you are at zero. So, it's best to work on your fundamentals for a bit and then start your journey.

mr_hans_moleman Wrote:

mastermx Wrote:wildweathel & nukemarine:

thanks for your insightful and helpful comments. I just wanted to check that i was on the right track. It's just that i have never seen anyone that has used the sentence mining method and succeeded. And i ran into a little opposition to the method at the how-to-learn-any-language.com forums.

There are just so many different methods. And i wanted to make sure that i had picked the perfect one that gives a good value for time invested. And one that produces native-esque fluency.

Well, I also do the "sentence method" Although, I only really spend about 1 hour SRS'ing everyday. I'm been doing this for almost 19 months now, but did I succeed? That's a hard question to answer. I can read pretty much anything(Psychology, Physics, Business, etc). If people ask me if I'm fluent, I say no(Though in some ways I am already ).

Now, whether the sentence method was the magical tool is a different story. I'm where I'm at because I read Japanese so much, too much actually. I'm talking about at least 5 hours a day.

You know what the best method is:
1) Always read out loud. The more senses you use the better. When you read out lead, you are speaking in Japanese, listening to Japanese and reading in Japanese. It can't get any better than that.

2) Learn things for the long term. Put things in your SRS and go. Even if you forgert things, who cares! In the long term, you will know it eventually.

3)Stop relying on English. If you want to look up a recipe, then look it up in Japanese

4)Stimulate your sense. It's kind of similar to 1). I'm not sure whether you are a guy or not but if you are try to go read about nampa. If you want, I can send you a pdf.
Well, just read anything that stimulates your senses. How about a sex book in Japanese lol? I'm not joking btw.

5) Have a purpose!
Don't learn Japanese. From the start, use Japanese to learn something. Make it your goal to learn something like Psychology or whatever. In this way, learning Japanese becomes a byproduct of learning Psychology(because you read it in Japanese). Of course, in the beginning you are at zero. So, it's best to work on your fundamentals for a bit and then start your journey.

Thank you for that. Your achievements are an inspiration. I agree with your method. Stimulating content help concentration. Guess its about investing time now. Oh how I wish I can fast forward time to the future where I've reached fluency.

peace

mastermx Wrote:And i ran into a little opposition to the method at the how-to-learn-any-language.com forums.

Bunch of monolingual blowhards. The sooner you ignore them, the better.

Okay, maybe that's a little harsh. There's some good stuff there, you just have to wade through lots of hot air to get to it. Personally, I don't find it worth my time: it's better to watch an episode of 電脳コイル or do some Anki reviews.

Quote:There are just so many different methods. And i wanted to make sure that i had picked the perfect one that gives a good value for time invested. And one that produces native-esque fluency.

As the saying goes, don't let "perfect" be the enemy of good. If you try to be perfect before you start, well, you'll never start. Instead, just try something. If it fails, try to get an understanding of why.

But, I think you'll find that good enough is good enough. For example, Khatzumoto discourages pre-mined sentences and bilingual word pairs (e.g. 魚 = fish). I've used word pairs to get to an upper-intermediate level in Esperanto without sentences at all.

(Jes, antaŭ vi demandus, mi povas min esprimi kaj legi tekstojn plejparte kaj uzi eo-eo vortarojn. Nec mi "malflue" (kiel diritas) parolas, sed ne perfektas. -- Yes, before you should ask, I can express myself, read texts for the most part, and use Esperanto-Esperanto dictionaries. Neither am I what you'd call "unfluent," though I'm not perfect either.)

Doing that has given me a real perspective on the possibilities and limits of that method. The same is true of me using the Core 2000 pre-mined sentences. I don't think I can accurately convey the pros and cons of those methods. I think you should try them yourself and see what works.

Above all, do something even if it's just for 10 minutes a day. Often good-enough is good enough, and if not, you'll have your own failures to draw upon--not just the opinions of some strangers online with big egos.