Hey guys

I was just wondering what kind of success (if any) you people have had with developing writing ability in foreign/second languages (especially Japanese...der). Specifically, I'd be interested in writing of the creative sort, but any other experience with writing -- like perhaps translation or something -- is just fine.

Additionally, I do realize that a TON of reading is most likely necessary for one to become competent at writing in another language like Japanese. Beyond the "tons of reading" strategy, I'm open to any sort of language learning strategies, with or without the usage of an SRS.

So what are your thoughts?

Well to be honest my first thoughts are good luck.

Sorry to sound old and cynical and I hope i haven't misinterpreted your post, but to me it reads as "I'm young and ambitious and don't really know any of the language but I want to write creatively in japanese. P.S. haven't really done anything in english either or else i would have mentioned it".

I meant the above in a nice way but seriously getting "success" in creative writing is hard enough in one's first language. Yes it can, (and has been) done as a second language, but those people are few and far between (ignoring translations oc).

Can you give examples of the sort of material do you do now? Do you have any work published in english? Can you supply a link to some of your work?

I would be very happy to be wrong on this though so put me down for a first edition (signed and dedicated)

Edit: P.S. What exactly is your level of japanese now?

Rooboy Wrote:Sorry to sound old and cynical and I hope i haven't misinterpreted your post, but to me it reads as "I'm young and ambitious and don't really know any of the language but I want to write creatively in japanese. P.S. haven't really done anything in english either or else i would have mentioned it".

I think you have completely misinterpreted what the topic creator was asking, and this did not call for a smug reply as funny as it was. igordesu was simply asking if it is possible to become fluent enough in a foreign language, thus gaining the ability to write naturally and creatively.

Igordesu: You will gain fluency if you put in the time. The more you read and practice the better you will become. It will take a long time to reach a reasonable goal of self expression.

@Rooboy:

Well...I'm an English major, and I've been creatively writing in English for years. No, I've never published anything, but I do have a bit of experience with this. And, honestly, I wasn't really worried about what you think about writing in English.

As far as my Japanese level...meh. I can comfortably read through Harry Potter in Japanese without a dictionary and catch a majority of the details. I'd say...maybe 2/3 comprehension.

@mastermx: Point taken.

Do any of you have any experience with this sort of thing?

Can people write well in a second language? Yes. Can it be done in Japanese? You bet. Shirin Nezammafi (Iranian) and Yang Yi (Chinese) both won the Akutagawa prize for literature. Does it happen often? I imagine not.

That's not to say you can't write successfully in Japanese, given enough dedication to both the language and the craft of creative writing.

Prose or poetry? I've recently been playing around with senryu poetry (simpler than haiku in some respects). The bottom line is to just play with the words and the kanji. Read a lot, as you say. Just as you would in English, expect to write a whole lot of junk, particularly as you get a feeling for what works and what doesn't work in Japanese. Lang-8 might be helpful in your endeavor.

mastermx Wrote:The more you read and practice the better you will become.

Exactly. I agree with mastermx and bluemarigolds: it all comes down to dedication. Creative writing, just like any other art form, can only be developed with lots of practice. Reading lots will help, too, but you really need to practice actually writing if you want to see improvement.

It sounds like you have pretty high-level Japanese. Like bluemarigolds said, you could try writing on Lang-8 and getting your writing corrected and critiqued by native Japanese speakers. I think this is what Richard VanHouten, who wrote ゆきの物語, did.

Similarly, if you have any Japanese friends, penpals, teachers, etc., ask them to correct and critique your writing. They'd probably enjoy reading your stuff and appreciate your interest in Japanese writing. ^^

Also, maybe see if you can join a Japanese writing group. Is there a large Japanese population where you live? If there is, see if there's an active Japanese writers' community. If not, maybe try to set one up. ^^ And if that's not doable, you might be able to find some online. I would think that most native speakers would be delighted to see a non-native so interested in improving their Japanese writing, and would probably be really encouraging.

And if you want to share, why not post here, too? I think it would be really cool to see the written Japanese of other users on this forum.

bluemarigolds: wow! thanks for that! that's incredibly encouraging!

shirokuro: first, I have one thing to say. Your name and picture/avatar thingy are pure awesomeness. Just saying, lol.

Also, I wish that I did have pretty high level Japanese. However, my mad "Harry Potter reading skillz" are really nothing fabulous. It only took me about 3-4 months of reading random manga to get to that level. I still have a loooooong way to go. And my output reeeeaaaally sucks.

Also, I wish there were Japanese where I live, but unfortunately that location happens to be Redneckville, Wisconsin, USA But that's okay. That's why we have the internet Thank you very much for the encouragement.

I do think it's not a bad idea to begin with structured poetry. In fact, could be a good learning tool even at an early level. Well, maybe not. Perhaps write some 辞世の句? Maybe not.

Of course, the highest mark of achievement is when you start spittin' rhymes and mixin' in the 英語.

Edit: Is it 辞世 by itself or with の句?

Of course you can write in a second language! I did tons of creative writing in English both for enjoyment and to sharpen my skills back when I wasn't quite as adept. Once and a while I'll write a few short stories in Mandarin to prevent my skills fromg getting too dull.

In the end you'll need the work corrected by a native to pick out errors, but editors are needed even when people write in their first language 99.9% of the time, so that's not that big of a deal.

As long as you have the motivation and time, you can make the dream a reality!

Sweet! Thanks for the encouragement! That's awesome! Like, seriously, I am soooo totally motivated right now. Wow.

igordesu Wrote:shirokuro: first, I have one thing to say. Your name and picture/avatar thingy are pure awesomeness. Just saying, lol.

Thanks!

OK, so after thinking about it some more, I think that basically all the strategies that people use to improve their writing in their first language can be applied to improve your writing in a foreign language. The first thing that comes to mind for me is close reading. Look at your favourite Japanese fiction. Analyze diction, syntax, imagery, pacing, etc. I'm guessing this won't be too tough for you, since you're an English major, after all.

Then you could try to imitate the things you like or found worked really well. Maybe write a sequel or prequel to a short story you liked. Or, if you like Harry Potter (in Japanese), maybe try writing a fanfic, if that appeals to you. Just write whatever you enjoy writing. ^^ I think the principles of AJATT apply, here, too: all your output has to be fun. Doesn't have to be perfect or anything, you can get natives to look your stuff over, but you'll be way more motivated IMHO if you enjoy your writing. One of the things I enjoyed the most when I was in French immersion in school was writing silly short stories. It was way more fun than writing things like labs or geography assignments.

Quote:[...] But that's okay. That's why we have the internet

Mmhmm, agreed! Another thing that you might be able to do online would be to participate in/organize a writing challenge, sort of along the lines of NaNoWriMo, but probably on a much smaller scale. (Maybe a week-long short story challenge? XD) Oh, and if you had a group writing along with you, you could maybe keep a blog and post your stuff in serials so that you'd get comments as you go.

I also think it would be really cool if there were Japanese versions of sites like FanFiction.Net and Protagonize... if anyone knows of any good online Japanese writing communities, please share!

@白黒： Totally. Thank you for the encouragement.

Actually, it's kind of odd that you mentioned it, but I'm participating in the NaNoWriMo thingy. Except I'm doing it every month next year (in English). Oh yeah. It's like...if you want to get good at stuff, you just have to pay attention and be prolific, you know?

Maybe I'll do something similar with Japanese in a few years? Right now...I'm going to hone my writing skills in English first before I go all out on Japanese. I've been experimenting with LingQ as a comfortable way of continuing reading practice and vocabulary acquisition for a little bit everyday while I'm busy with English. It's just...I feel like my Japanese still has to be better before output practice.

And fanfiction sounds like an excellent idea for practicing creative writing in Japanese. It would give you an excuse for deliberately copying the style of another writer! Lol...

No problem! Great to hear you're feeling really motivated. ^^

igordesu Wrote:Actually, it's kind of odd that you mentioned it, but I'm participating in the NaNoWriMo thingy. Except I'm doing it every month next year (in English).

Wow, seriously?? That's awesome, but sounds really intense. But your (English) writing should really dramatically improve! Just have fun doing it, OK? You don't want to get burned out.

Good luck!

Also... you absolutely must have a TGIO party every month! And one for the end of the year, too! XD

Quote:Maybe I'll do something similar with Japanese in a few years? Right now...I'm going to hone my writing skills in English first before I go all out on Japanese. I've been experimenting with LingQ as a comfortable way of continuing reading practice and vocabulary acquisition for a little bit everyday while I'm busy with English. It's just...I feel like my Japanese still has to be better before output practice.

Sounds like a really good plan, IMHO. No need to force yourself before you feel ready. I went through French Immersion for most of my primary and secondary education, and I think lots of great things can be said about the program. But it encouraged speaking and writing almost exclusively in French from a low level, which I think was pretty damaging and is part of the reason why I still find writing or speaking in it so much harder than reading or listening. When I read or listen to French, it's like my brain completely switches over to French and everything seems natural. But then, when I write or speak it, I think too much in English and my French often comes out not sounding very natural. Pretty much everyone I know who went through French Immersion has the same problem. So don't feel bad at all about holding out for a bit.

I hope this doesn't sound too self-contradictory. I believe practicing writing in a foreign language is really useful, but only if it can be done relatively comfortably at the level you're at. When you do start writing more in Japanese, I think one of the most important things is to avoid relying too heavily on bilingual dictionaries because they encourage translating in your head. IMHO, heavy reliance on bilingual dictionaries when writing in a foreign language is even more damaging than it is when learning vocab.

If i recall correctly, one of the winners of a prestigious Japanese literature award was a Chinese person...