Hey guys,

This is my 3rd attempt at RTK 1. Previously, I've got up to #1000 or so before stopping and studying for the JLPT 2 test. I managed to pass the test and now want to get back to RTK 1. Ultimately, I'd like to get through RTK 1, learn the readings through RTK 2(or another method) and then study for the kanji kentei level 2 test.

The problem is, I'm working full time at the moment and don't have much time to study. Previously, I've found that creating stories can be quite time consuming and the stories that I would make wouldn't really 'stick'. I've found Heisig's stories seem to really work for me, so was wondering if he ever released a complete set of stories for all of RTK 1? I know it's a long shot, but figured it's worth a try.

cheers,

rednightmare

the "one picture-one kanji" thred has a story (and picture!) for each I beleive

[Katsuo]

rednightmare Wrote:I've found that creating stories can be quite time consuming and the stories that I would make wouldn't really 'stick'. I've found Heisig's stories seem to really work for me, so was wondering if he ever released a complete set of stories for all of RTK 1?

Heisig did not release a complete set of stories; he believes it is more effective to make your own, and thus RTK1 guides readers towards that.

However, the book was written over 30 years ago. We now have the Internet which gives all sorts of new opportunities for collaboration.

This website includes thousands of stories submitted by people working through the book. Other users vote on stories and popular ones rise to the top of the list. Have you not seen that part of this website?

I have seen the user-submitted story section, but I've found that a number of the user-submitted stories are very simplified, not really creating a vivid image, and in some cases, stray away from the meaning. Take the story for 先 for example.

The keyword is 'before'. This is the top user-submitted story:

"I've never seen a cow with human legs before!"

Whilst this may work for some, I find that it certainly doesn't paint as vivid an image as Heisig's story about the guys in the cow suit. Another problem with the user-submitted stories is some users have changed the primitive names which can make it confusing and inconsistent with the RTK book.

Don't get me wrong, I think the user-submitted story section is great and a lot of people benefit from it. I just find that Heisig's stories, particularly those using myth and fables, are really great. Seems a shame to not share them. I think a lot of people would like to use them.

[ファブリス]

The top voted stories are not necessarily the best. It's very hard to make a voting system that ensure quality of stories used for mnemonic purposes. But if you scroll down you will find very imaginative ones for most characters.

I think the main problem with the top stared stories is this: the longer they are there, the more time they have to accumulate favs. I'd love to see a decay system implemented, so that stars decay over time. This tough would end up being the same issue as in a seperate thread, basically that the DB would grow quite a bit, as every start would need a timestamp. (So that stories that have been there for 2 years, but have only recently been stared a lot, do not get a relative penalty to those, who have been stared a lot 2 years ago).

A complete set of Heisig's stories can be found in his book, which is still available for purchase just about anywhere.

wccrawford Wrote:A complete set of Heisig's stories can be found in his book, which is still available for purchase just about anywhere.

Nope, you only get stories for a few hundred kanji and then you have to use your imagination. In my opinion Heisig's stories are not that great anyway. The stories on this site are more creative and funny.

wccrawford Wrote:A complete set of Heisig's stories can be found in his book, which is still available for purchase just about anywhere.

Someone obviously didn't buy the book =)

samesong,

I've got his book and there are only 'complete stories' for the first couple of hundred kanji. From there on out he basically just gives the primitives and you have to make your own stories.

If you've got an amazon link or something similar to a book with all the stories, I'm all ears.

Perhaps in time there'll be a better "filtering" system. Yeah, favorite votes are cool, but limited.

- User selected options and parameters -

Decay votes option: votes don't count that older than xxx date (set by user)

Favorite author(s): user can go to author's "bio" and click favorite. That author(s)'s stories are always top posted (then sorted by stars).

Everyone's favorite author: author with XXX total stars for stories gets top posted.

Finish Them: when selected, authors that have yyy cards in box xx are top posted.

I think the idea here is, if the author finishes RTK he's refined his stories over time. If others like many of his stories, he'll have many stars so maybe most of his stories, even unstarred ones, are good. If you actually like the way one guy writes stories, his should be at the top. By putting these at the top, you're not wading through as much clutter.

Of course, I'm speaking as someone that benefited from early RTK with fewer stories.

PS: I don't even know if the above are even feasible. Though the favorite author sounds doable (maybe a block author can be on that too).

I love the stories on this site (I also use the cow with human legs one XD) and I find some of them much better than any stories I could ever come up with. And sometimes I make up stories that get 1 or 2 stars! *proud*
And I do always star a story if I end up using it (and also the ones that make me laugh, because everyone should read them. )

I agree with a 'votes don't count after a set amount of days' or something. The best stories will stay on top that way anyway. And better stories have a chance of getting to the top.

rednightmare Wrote:samesong,

I've got his book and there are only 'complete stories' for the first couple of hundred kanji. From there on out he basically just gives the primitives and you have to make your own stories.

If you've got an amazon link or something similar to a book with all the stories, I'm all ears.

My comment wasn't directed towards you

samesong Wrote:

rednightmare Wrote:samesong,

I've got his book and there are only 'complete stories' for the first couple of hundred kanji. From there on out he basically just gives the primitives and you have to make your own stories.

If you've got an amazon link or something similar to a book with all the stories, I'm all ears.

My comment wasn't directed towards you

Yeah, that's cool. I was just hoping that you knew of an edition of RTK that did include stories for all of the 2000 characters. Alas.

Why would Heisig make another edition with all the stories? The whole point of his system is that you learn how to make stories on your own. It would basically defy the whole point of the book if he made another edition with all the stories.

Koos83 Wrote:Why would Heisig make another edition with all the stories?

$$$

Koos83 Wrote:Why would Heisig make another edition with all the stories? The whole point of his system is that you learn how to make stories on your own. It would basically defy the whole point of the book if he made another edition with all the stories.

No, the whole point is to use imaginitive memory to learn kanji. It doesn't matter where the stories come from so long as they work. His stories work for the first 300 or so kanji so why wouldn't they work for all of them?

rednightmare Wrote:No, the whole point is to use imaginitive memory to learn kanji. It doesn't matter where the stories come from so long as they work. His stories work for the first 300 or so kanji so why wouldn't they work for all of them?

I've noticed, that making stories by yourself is much more effective, so from the very beginning I've started to make my own ones. If you start from the first frame, you'll be better later.
I think the idea is to make your own associations. What's yours, that's yours... And if you notice that you're forgetting the story, you have to modificate it. Doing this several times leads you to have perfect stories (in your case of course).

Would say my experience was the opposite, Piotoro... my ability to recall the kanji didn't decrease at all (and perhaps increased) when I started using other people's stories from this site. Probably because they were better at creating vivid images than I was..

Creating the stories was a tedious chore that I'd try to get through as fast as possible, which usually led to weak associations/images.

But people probably react to the task of creating the stories quite differently, I suppose.

Koos83 Wrote:Why would Heisig make another edition with all the stories? The whole point of his system is that you learn how to make stories on your own. It would basically defy the whole point of the book if he made another edition with all the stories.

For me, the whole point of his system is to learn all the general use kanji quickly and efficiently. It doesn't matter if I create a story or use somebody else's in regards to how well I remember it--some of the most vivid stories I use have been written by other people. Of course, I've had no other choice than to create my own stories from time to time when I was unable to fit my mind around the set of associations in one of Heisig's stories and couldn't find a story I liked on this site, but on the whole I find creating my own stories to be a tedious extra step in the process that I could do without.

If it weren't for this site and the stories shared by the community here, I'd also be frustrated that Heisig's book is so skimpy on kanji with actual stories. I've written a great many stories, some just OK, many perfectly good, but that's only because I spend A LOT of time on them. Yet I've come up against several brick walls in those enormous chapters where you have a primitive with a broad range of connotations like "fingers" or "state of mind." I honestly did try to create all my own stories for these primitives, but got stuck on many kanji with them because I simply couldn't think of good stories. For that it was an enormous relief to turn to the stories other people had written, find them to be good stories, and be able to continue making progress through the book instead of staring at blank flashcards with writer's block.

It occurs to me, though, that in parts 1 and 2 of the book, there are approximately 3.2 kanji per page and in part 3, there are more than twice that many, 6.8 kanji per page. If the book listed stories for every kanji in the book, depending on how long they were, the book would be at least 200 pages longer (or, it would have to be printed in a larger format). Not that I wouldn't like to see a textbook-sized RTK with stories for every kanji, but the enormous size of such a monster could be pretty dang intimidating; whereas the current edition, already fairly thick, is nonetheless quick to yield its pages to any determined student. Just saying, one of RTK's main goals is to make beginning students feel like they can accomplish the task...

Nukemarine Wrote:Perhaps in time there'll be a better "filtering" system. Yeah, favorite votes are cool, but limited.

- User selected options and parameters -

Decay votes option: votes don't count that older than xxx date (set by user)

Favorite author(s): user can go to author's "bio" and click favorite. That author(s)'s stories are always top posted (then sorted by stars).

Everyone's favorite author: author with XXX total stars for stories gets top posted.

Finish Them: when selected, authors that have yyy cards in box xx are top posted.

I'd love to see a "Decay votes option." It perplexes me when the top story, good or not, has 250 votes, and the next most popular story only has 17. I understand people want to be able to up-vote their favorite stories, but when there's a gap of 100+ votes between #1 and #2, it's not like the favorite story is in any danger of being overtaken...

When taken by itself, self-made stories may be better than borrowed stories, but that's just ignoring time. What is better is what lets you learn all the kanji well in the shortest time, and I think that way is to mostly use the great shared stories on this site. Learn how to use other people's stories effectively. I think if you're making up more than 10% of your own stories you're spending more time than necessary.

Just for the record: I use a lot of other people's stories as well, that I get from this site. I am definitely one of the people for using them if they appeal to you more than any story you could come up with yourself. Just wanted to get that cleared up in case people think I am against borrowing stories.

Koos83, sorry, I took your quote out of context. I meant to use it to illustrate what Heisig's stated opinion was in the book of preparing students to meet unknown kanji in the wild. Totally reasonable, but not the exact reason many students like the RTK system.