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Programming and Learning Japanese - Enough time?

#1
Ok. I'd like to ask any and all full-time programmers how much time they usually set aside to learn Japanese? Since when I go into programming mode, I never come out of it until sleep hits me. I know it's not a healthy habit Sad So I'd like some insight in how some of you find time to learn Japanese? How can you set enough time since most of the time you're reading codes, computer articles, this and that about security and whatnot. Thank you.
Edited: 2009-11-18, 12:06 am
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#2
Sounds more like you need some time management skills. Khatzu's day job is as a programmer, FYI.
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#3
I agree with mafried, and it's not a problem specific to programmers. You need some discipline. When I was younger, I had the same problem, I could write code for hours without lifting my head. But then, I got a job, a wife, and I guess those are the reasons why I changed: I need to set time aside for people around me, and ... well ... What are you doing for a living? You haven't told us.

As for me, I study kanjis all the time (I mean, at least 1 hour every day and no less than 20 kanjis, and I study whenever I have 10 minutes of free time), and this web site helped a bit: http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/
Edited: 2009-11-18, 12:30 am
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#4
just from reading the topic I said "yes, enough time." Just go for it. As soon as you decide to change, it's done.
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#5
I was afraid that was the case. I just didn't want to acknowledge it. I think it's about time I cast aside that kind of attitude and "grow up". I know it won't do me any good to keep this up.

A big thanks for pointing me to the pomodoro technique. After reading through the site and a few pages, I can already see myself turning a new leaf.


mypapa12 Wrote:I agree with mafried, and it's not a problem specific to programmers. You need some discipline. When I was younger, I had the same problem, I could write code for hours without lifting my head. But then, I got a job, a wife, and I guess those are the reasons why I changed: I need to set time aside for people around me, and ... well ... What are you doing for a living? You haven't told us.

As for me, I study kanjis all the time (I mean, at least 1 hour every day and no less than 20 kanjis, and I study whenever I have 10 minutes of free time), and this web site helped a bit: http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/
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#6
Another basic time management solution is to just wake up earlier and study the most important stuff first thing in the morning. That way, if you get too tired to study during/after work, you'll at least have made good progress.

In time, the small day-to-day progress will add up.

Also, for things like reviewing kanji on RevTK, I sometimes sneak some reviews in on my ipod touch which walking in/out/around the office (especially on lunch break). You'd be surprised how many kanji you can review while waiting in line for your lunch order (or waiting forever on the line during a conference call).

Portable 3G/Wifi devices are great for getting reviews done in places you'd never think of (yes, even the potty, but don't spend too much time there.... :-). In fact, thanks to 3G, all of my "dead time" is being put to better use now.
Edited: 2009-11-18, 1:44 am
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#7
There is not enough time. That's the hard truth, no time management BS is going to change that. If you want to learn Japanese and make some satisfying progress that's going to require hours every day so you're going to have to give up other things to free that time.

Right now since I already program at work, I don't spend any more time on that at home. And unless I start really neglecting Japanese, which happens from time to time when I get tired of never doing anything else, I don't really get to spend much time on other activities. All my other hobbies are just 'temporarily' on hold until I have more time.

So if you don't really want Japanese to be your priority, you should probably quit while you still can.
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#8
As a professional programmer, I can confirm that it has nothing at all to do with programming.

It sounds to me like you're not having fun with it. That's a big mistake. You should only do as much "hard study" as you have fun with each day. For instance, this is how I've been learning:

At first, I hit Japanese -hard-. I studied with a game that was sort of like RTK, but only got to around 1300 after a few months. At that point, I realized I wasn't having fun and switched to vocab in the game. When I finished that (it didn't have much) I switched to LiveMocha. Then I joined a Japanese manga club. (Which failed utterly to both teach and continue to exist.) Then Smart.fm. Then I started reading the easiest manga I could find: Yotsuba&. Then I switched to Anki. Then I read more.

Notice how much changing I'm doing? Keep making sure it's fun until you get to the point that you can have fun -with- the language, instead of learning the language.

Now, I read manga for fun, looking up the words I don't know. I recently started doing the 2001KO sentences in Anki for listening practice. I also read manga a -lot-. Every day at lunch, while I wait for the sub shop to prep my food, I read One Piece. At home, when I'm bored or stuck in a room without a TV (hehe), I read Naruto. And I continue to learn and learn from it.

Yes, it's slower... But I never feel like I'm losing anything. In fact, I usually feel like I'm neglecting my other hobbies instead now.
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#9
I posted a thread a couple of weeks/months back about how to handle multiple hobbies or projects, as I play Piano as well as study Japanese.

I think (or hope) that there is somewhat of a hurdle that has to be overcome when you start learning Japanese (I am still very much a beginner) and that's that once you have reached a certain stage (I hope after KO2001) then you can start merging your current activities into Japanese.

I am not disillusioned I'm not expecting it to be easy or to get everything/fluent but it will hopefully mean that I can watch that show or film in Japanese rather than English and understand a small amount, but enough to make it rewarding and worth doing. I like to read also, so maybe then I can start out with some easy Japanese stuff and continue reading whilst practicing Japanese. Same with the internet.

This is pretty much the AJATT principle but kind of easing my way into it bit by bit. Perhaps I'll dub this the AJATT hump.

I haven't read the Pomodoro link yet, but a helpful link I received in my other thread was this one; http://www.43folders.com/2005/10/11/proc...-hack-1025.
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#10
There's an old canard about how you don't manage time, you manage yourself. There's certainly a grain of truth in that, but it doesn't say how to actually manage yourself. Criticism without construction sucks.

I think it's better to realize that productivity is the product of time and attention. We all know what time is. If you have to keep synchronized with the rest of the world you have twenty-four hours a day. But, most people assume that "attention" is an act of the will. If pay attention, it's because you choose to pay attention. If you're not productive, well, you didn't choose to pay attention. This is false.

Attention is something more organic. At any moment you have it or you don't. You might have a lot of it, you might have none, but it's not a result of your will, at least not in the present moment.

So, the first question isn't "is there enough time?" but "how can I cultivate a sense of attention?" Actually, that's fairly easy. The only hard part is cutting through the just-plain-wrong masochistic bullshit that surrounds the subject. There are two basic things you can do to improve attention: healthy sleep habits and better scheduling.

Sleep. Most people in the developed world suck at it thanks to two cruel inventions: cheap artificial light and the damned alarm clock. The first makes it possible to extend the waking day. The second "fixes" the resulting long day by curtailing sleep. Sleep deprivation impairs memorization, intelligence, judgment, emotional processing, and (of course) attention. The solution is (in my experience) to return to a tropical day/night cycle: 12 hours of "daytime" when you get stuff done and 12 hours of "nighttime" when you turn off the lights, chill out, and slip off to sleep.

12 attentive hours a day beat the pants off of 18 zombie hours. Actually, you get a few of those hours back once you start waking up naturally--with interest, too, since you wake up on just enough of a cortisol high to really be able to put those morning hours to good use.

Scheduling. This doesn't mean what you think it does. You don't have to plan out your whole day. In fact, that's usually counterproductive. Instead, you pay attention to your level of attention. When bored, you switch tasks. You realize that your attention span is usually only 10 to 20 minutes, so you stop within that time to reevaluate if you're really doing something interesting, and if there's something more interesting and valuable to do. This is where "timeboxing" methods such as Pomodoro have their value.

Sometimes you have to do things that suck and are boring and you can't make more interesting. For those tasks, you just attack them in 5 to 10 minute intervals. You accept only doing the minimum required and use every cheap psychological trick on yourself . Whenever possible, you kill these tasks off for good.

The truth is, you don't suck. Having to do sucky things sucks.

Even if you vanquish boring zombie work and use your time much more efficiently, you'll find that still you have "too much to do." That's because of a variation of the Peter Principle: your expectations of what to do with your time will grow until they exceed what you're actually capable of doing with your time.

The solution here is to guard your time jealously Whenever you have a choice, only the very cream of the crop--the most interesting, most creative, and most valuable things--have the right to your time. Merely interesting, creative, and kinda valuable isn't good enough. For example, you might decide to forgo English-language entertainment for Japanese. Rather than extracting 99% of the content of a computer-security article, you'll cut your reading time to a quarter of what is now--and with selectivity and the Pareto principle, you can still be getting something like 80% of the worthwhile content.

"Only when necessary do half-assed things get half-assed time, but always at full-on focus" should be the goal, clearing your time for the things you care about. Your working time is valuable. Your leisure time is valuable. You don't have to worry about working hard enough enough--let the stuff that wants your time prove that it's good enough for your time.

Finally, focus on improvement, not on its results--looking at results either ends up with disappointment that your not as good as you want to be or complacency since you're "good enough." Find a sustainable pace at which to grow and do and stick with it. As Khatzumoto says: "people overestimate what they can do in a day, and underestimate what they can do in a year."

Those are the fundamentals. Things like "prioritization," "delegation," "speed reading," and "supercharged memory" (including SRS) are bonuses. Built on a solid foundation, they're valuable (and worth looking into). Without the foundation, they're only good for selling self-help books.
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#11
Damn it wildweathel, that is a good post.
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#12
wildweathel Wrote:12 attentive hours a day beat the pants off of 18 zombie hours.
Well, if you're free to manage your time any way you want to, maybe. For me 12 hours barely cover my work day from waking up to getting back home. Not an option.

I'd rather be a zombie all day and have a few hours for Japanese and other stuff in the evening.

Your ideas are very nice in theory and yes I can be a lot more productive in general if I can just turn off my alarm clocks (I need 4 of them v__v) and sleep as much as I need too. But I'm not going to do that just so I can be more productive at work.

And zombies are cool anyway Big Grin
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#13
I never could write more than ~3 hours of useful code per day.

The trick is to stop writing useless code:
http://www.laputan.org/mud/mud.html#ThrowAwayCode
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#14
mentat_kgs Wrote:I never could write more than ~3 hours of useful code per day.
Off course not, but we have to keep pretending or we wouldn't get paid for full-time. Wink
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#15
I just read the pomodoro technique this morning in the wall st journal. I might use it and see how much interruptions I get. I code a lot and do quite a bit of data wrangling with long running processes. When I am working, I sometimes take a break and study with anki 2-5 mins. Helps reduce my review time by focusing on it for just a bit. Much better than the hours of cranking through reviews all in one big chunk.


so ideas:
- break up your day with mini-reviews
- get a smart phone and go mobile: ankimini
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#16
The pomodoro technique is a bit too simplistic however.. from what I can tell it only addresses the issue of staying focused on something. Time management is really a much more complex issue, as defining what that something is is the majority of one's work these days (see: Peter Druker and "knowledge worker"). Step 1 of pomodoro is "Pick the task." Well, I got news for you, Francesco Cirillo, that's 90+% of the work right there. Could use a little clarification.

If you're the type of person that needs a system to stay organized and on task (I am too, so I understand), then I'd recommend David Allen's Getting Things Done. That plus chamcham's suggestion of waking up earlier. I'm definitely not a morning person, but it feels great to get things I want to do done and while I'm refreshed and focused, before work/school/life stresses me out.

EDIT: to sum up, the "pomodoro technique" is just 25-minute timeboxing, something most people here are probably familiar with.
Edited: 2009-11-21, 2:00 am
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#17
@Codexus I don't think he literally means 12 hours of sleep, just 12 hours of set aside off-time. That'a a reasonable goal, IMHO.

You commute 4 hours each day?
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#18
Codexus Wrote:
mentat_kgs Wrote:I never could write more than ~3 hours of useful code per day.
Off course not, but we have to keep pretending or we wouldn't get paid for full-time. Wink
haha so true
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#19
mafried Wrote:You commute 4 hours each day?
He could just work more than 8 hours, like many people do.
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#20
You should definitely learn to take breaks. Programming for hours on end isn't good for you. RSI is a real career killer...
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#21
I'm a programmer. The way I deal with management; I break my day into blocks. Morning, afternoon and evening are all separate chunks of time which I can use for work i.e. writing code. In between, take breaks of food/games/shopping etc.

At the beginning/end of each session is time (1hr-ish) I can use to study Japanese. Simple, but it works for me.
Edited: 2009-12-27, 1:56 pm
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#22
if you're lucky enough to have a 4 hour commute, I would recommend studying during your commute. Personally, I only study Anki when I'm on the bus or train, which is more than enough time.

I actually prefer longer commutes (via public transportation) since they're good for reading books and studying.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend using Anki while driving a car....lol...
Edited: 2009-12-27, 1:57 pm
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#23
Javizy Wrote:You should definitely learn to take breaks. Programming for hours on end isn't good for you. RSI is a real career killer...
Correction: Programming for hours on end isn't good for your code.
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#24
I'm a full time programmer who does research at home.

I have some suggestions.

- Read about coding in Japanese whenever you can.
- Listen to Japanese music/podcasts/etc. when you are writing code (as opposed to looking up references.)
- Write your comments in Japanese (Haven't tried this myself, would depend on your code editor I guess)
- Cut down on coding at home.
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#25
I am a programmer myself. Here's some ideas for combining language learning with programming:

- As a programmer you tend to be familiar with the GUIs of the programs you are using. So change the language to Japanese (on my OS [Mac] that's just one click in the language settings). Since you already know your programs quite well, it won't be difficult to guess what the Japanese words could mean.
- Read programming books in Japanese. It's not as difficult as you might think, if you are familiar with the subject.
- If you can afford not being paid much, look for remote programming jobs in Japan. I haven't tried this but I know some people who did, I want to give it a try one day...
- Read mailing lists on your programming language which are in Japanese. (use the perapera-kun and rikaichan plugins for Firefox and Chrome..)
- write an Open Source project that does something involving Japanese language...
- write a programming blog in Japanese..
Edited: 2010-01-23, 5:10 pm
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