http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...202847.htm

News Flash!

"In a new study, published in the open-access journal PLoS One, Holger Mitterer (Max Planck Institute for Psycholinguistics) and James McQueen (MPI and Radboud University Nijmegen) show how you can improve your second-language listening ability by watching the movie with subtitles -- as long as these subtitles are in the same language as the film. Subtitles in one's native language, the default in some European countries, may actually be counter-productive to learning to understand foreign speech."

Link to full article: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ado...ne.0007785

Abstract: Understanding foreign speech is difficult, in part because of unusual mappings between sounds and words. It is known that listeners in their native language can use lexical knowledge (about how words ought to sound) to learn how to interpret unusual speech-sounds. We therefore investigated whether subtitles, which provide lexical information, support perceptual learning about foreign speech. Dutch participants, unfamiliar with Scottish and Australian regional accents of English, watched Scottish or Australian English videos with Dutch, English or no subtitles, and then repeated audio fragments of both accents. Repetition of novel fragments was worse after Dutch-subtitle exposure but better after English-subtitle exposure. Native-language subtitles appear to create lexical interference, but foreign-language subtitles assist speech learning by indicating which words (and hence sounds) are being spoken.

I've known this for a long time It's just too bad subtitling/CC isn't more common in Japan.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I've known this for a long time It's just too bad subtitling/CC isn't more common in Japan.

Yeah right, you're just pretending like you already thought about it to make yourself look smarter. So egotistical, tsk tsk.

I hope they do more research about this though, just to get some new angles on the subject, esp. with languages like Japanese/English and multimodal learning.

This is an actual news flash? Or one of those sarcastic "Scientist have discovered what we've been doing all along" type news flash. Cause I'm leaning to the latter.

PS: This can back up on learning Kanji first, seeing that Kanji plays a big role in most native Japanese/Chinese sub-titles. I know I pay more attention to what's being said when the subtitles are on (even when it's English/English).

Nukemarine Wrote:This is an actual news flash? Or one of those sarcastic "Scientist have discovered what we've been doing all along" type news flash. Cause I'm leaning to the latter.

PS: This can back up on learning Kanji first, seeing that Kanji plays a big role in most native Japanese/Chinese sub-titles. I know I pay more attention to what's being said when the subtitles are on (even when it's English/English).

Sarcastic newsflash, hehe. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say 'news flash!' seriously, come to think of it. ;p

Jarvik7 Wrote:I've known this for a long time It's just too bad subtitling/CC isn't more common in Japan.

More and more I'm thinking that you and Tobberoth are one and the same.

Well starting from Fall 2009 nearly all Japanese TV dramas on D-addicts will come with japanese subtitles (automatically captured from the HD stream).

So this article came just in time....lol.....

And Nukemarine is also right. Even more of a reason to finish RTK.

It seems like everything in finally falling into place (over 30 years AFTER
the first edition of RTK).

RTK -> Tae Kim -> TV Drama with Japanese subtitles

With the exception of RTK, everything else is free.
Japanese fluency at only 35 dollars.....deal of the century.... :-)

Hmmm. Before AJATT quotes this maybe we should change the title:

"Foreign Subtitles Improve Speech Perception of Regional Accents of the Foreign Language when used by Fluent Readers and Speakers of the Foreign Language"

Newsflash indeed! After I become a fluent reader and speaker of Japanese, whenever I have trouble understanding a thick, say, Aomori, accent, I'll turn on the Japanese subtitles. Maybe it'll gradually become more comprehensible as I adjust to the differences.

Thora Wrote:Hmmm. Before AJATT quotes this maybe we should change the title:

"Foreign Subtitles Improve Speech Perception of Regional Accents of the Foreign Language when used by Fluent Readers and Speakers of the Foreign Language"

Newsflash indeed! After I become a fluent reader and speaker of Japanese, whenever I have trouble understanding a thick, say, Aomori, accent, I'll turn on the Japanese subtitles. Maybe it'll gradually become more comprehensible as I adjust to the differences.

Ha, I was thinking that too. Although, specifically of interest to me was the process of elimination towards analyzing the underlying mechanism of 'lexical returning in perceptual learning', viz. 'abstract orthographic information's influence on speech perception'.

Now if only these papers and Ruiner came with subtitles... ;-)

ruiner Wrote:Although, specifically of interest to me was the process of elimination towards analyzing the underlying mechanism of 'lexical returning in perceptual learning', viz. 'abstract orthographic information's influence on speech perception'.

So I wonder at what point after fluent level the native speaker's level of lexical returning kicks in? if ever. what a drag having to rely on visual aids

Nukemarine Wrote:This is an actual news flash? Or one of those sarcastic "Scientist have discovered what we've been doing all along" type news flash.

To be fair to the scientists, I think it's worthwhile research to investigate something that seems like common sense to see if it really is true (since there are a number of cases where "common sense" is actually wrong). And if you do all the experimentation and research and find that common sense is confirmed, you might as well publish the paper anyway.

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:This is an actual news flash? Or one of those sarcastic "Scientist have discovered what we've been doing all along" type news flash.

To be fair to the scientists, I think it's worthwhile research to investigate something that seems like common sense to see if it really is true (since there are a number of cases where "common sense" is actually wrong). And if you do all the experimentation and research and find that common sense is confirmed, you might as well publish the paper anyway.

Word.

Thora Wrote:Now if only these papers and Ruiner came with subtitles... ;-)

ruiner Wrote:Although, specifically of interest to me was the process of elimination towards analyzing the underlying mechanism of 'lexical returning in perceptual learning', viz. 'abstract orthographic information's influence on speech perception'.

So I wonder at what point after fluent level the native speaker's level of lexical returning kicks in? if ever. what a drag having to rely on visual aids

Oops, apparently that's 'retuning' (returning works too, though! If you ah, interpret it as 'referring to memorized vocabulary' ;p)... At any rate, at the same time that using 'fluent in the foreign target language' as the foundation and the regional accents as variation, then supplementing that with target language text for lexically-guided retuning, my own preference is to try and incorporate this into learning the words at the same time as focusing on text/speech (multimodal fixation again hehe); interest in the gradations of lexical knowledge does occur to me as well, given my current strategy of separating the subs2srs deck for listening/parsing, but learning the new vocabulary in that deck slightly beforehand separately and in a different sentence context.

I also wonder about the differences in how memory is accessed, because I know some research has shown how bilingualists (is that a real word) integrate and organize information from both languages in their declarative memory when encountering information. Or something. (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journ...1&SRETRY=0 - I haven't read much further on this topic, however.... ) Apparently this is often described as 'cross-language interactivity'?

And other times it's not common sense at all. It might be just a misleading media summary or the difficulty for non-specialists to appreciate the significance of very very narrow findings. But that's common sense too, I suppose.

Thora Wrote:And other times it's not common sense at all. It might be just a misleading media summary or the difficulty for non-specialists to appreciate the significance of very very narrow findings. But that's common sense too, I suppose.

That's science! Experiment, verify, avoid bad science journalism, keep it in context. It ought to be common sense. I think unless someone is heavily biased, most people of 'average intelligence' get that pretty easily (whatever intelligence is).

That's actually why I usually avoid changing headlines and try to post abstracts and whatnot and avoid too much (well *try*) commentary/editorialism when posting this stuff. I figure I best just step back and let other people interpret it and engage on that level.

So on the possibility of English subtitles interfering when watching Japanese shows, that's interesting. I had previously imagined that if I just let the subtitles fall to the wayside on an 'on the fly' basis that would be okay, but now I'm thinking it might be best to deliberately ignore/avoid them as a default policy.... Hmmm.

IceCream Wrote:

subtitles study Wrote:The participants were native speakers of Dutch studying at the Radboud University Nijmegen, with good command of spoken and written English [e.g., English reading materials are used in Dutch university curricula, and participants from this pool have, on average, 7–8 years of English education, see 33].

I think it'll depend what level of japanese you're at.

In the beginning stages of language learning, you're mapping a concept to a sound when you listen. In this case, i think you'd see far more improvement using subtitles of your own language than subtitles in japanese, unless you already read fluently. This study shows that when mapping sounds already heard in a language to a varient of that sound, subtitles in that language are the most useful. They seem like 2 seperate things to me.

I think there's definately a point where english subtitles become less useful, or a problem even. But, from personal experience, in mapping a concept to a sound, subtitles can be really helpful. Of course, you have to listen though, and think about it. I think it can help speed up your listening. I haven't tried watching with japanese subs yet though, so i can't compare against it.

Either way, i don't think English subtitles are a problem in the beginning stages of learning a language, and help you to distinguish words, as well as recognise meanings that are not yet solidly linked to the japanese word or sound in your mind (words that you've only seen once or twice are more recognisable this way). I think that these types of words and phrases, at this level, are more easily distinguishable than you would find them using japanese subs, since to rely on the subs, the particular kanji would also have to be mapped onto the meaning for it to be as beneficial.

Sorry, i think my writings unclear there, but i don't have time to write it better...

Referring to the interference/helpfulness thing, I can agree on some of that, I remember that I didn't notice any interference till I'd reached a certain level, then I hit that 'uncanny valley' where I knew just enough to have the subs get in the way but not enough to enjoy the show w/o them. As for the initial stages, I'm on board with English definitions, but simultaneous listening practice with English semantics doesn't suit my style (with subtitles comes subvocalisation), prefer to keep those moments at a remove, even if it's only a brief one, a matter of focusing on pictures/sounds/concepts then flipping the card an instant later. Apologies also if I'm unclear and hurried. ;p

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:This is an actual news flash? Or one of those sarcastic "Scientist have discovered what we've been doing all along" type news flash.

To be fair to the scientists, I think it's worthwhile research to investigate something that seems like common sense to see if it really is true (since there are a number of cases where "common sense" is actually wrong). And if you do all the experimentation and research and find that common sense is confirmed, you might as well publish the paper anyway.

I wasn't talking about common sense though. I'm talking about the fact that we've been doing this and noting that it works on an anecdotal basis. I know that I've posted about it since I watched all of "Last Friends" entirely in Japanese last year. Every thing since then has backed it up, though there are things that improve vastly upon it.

In addition, there's advice, both on this forum and The Japanese Page and Anti-moon some people put out that one should get away from subtitles at some point as hampering the listening aspect of language. For that, I wouldn't claim using sub-titles encourages language acquisition as common sense around here. Just a method some agree upon and may be harmful at a point (well, more of a crutch).

By the way, I agree, Science should investigate things even if it's considered "common sense". Common sense says heavier things fall faster. Science agrees, but only if it's a denser object and not in a vacuum.

Nukemarine Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:

Nukemarine Wrote:This is an actual news flash? Or one of those sarcastic "Scientist have discovered what we've been doing all along" type news flash.

To be fair to the scientists, I think it's worthwhile research to investigate something that seems like common sense to see if it really is true (since there are a number of cases where "common sense" is actually wrong). And if you do all the experimentation and research and find that common sense is confirmed, you might as well publish the paper anyway.

I wasn't talking about common sense though. I'm talking about the fact that we've been doing this and noting that it works on an anecdotal basis. I know that I've posted about it since I watched all of "Last Friends" entirely in Japanese last year. Every thing since then has backed it up, though there are things that improve vastly upon it.

In addition, there's advice, both on this forum and The Japanese Page and Anti-moon some people put out that one should get away from subtitles at some point as hampering the listening aspect of language. For that, I wouldn't claim using sub-titles encourages language acquisition as common sense around here. Just a method some agree upon and may be harmful at a point (well, more of a crutch).

By the way, I agree, Science should investigate things even if it's considered "common sense". Common sense says heavier things fall faster. Science agrees, but only if it's a denser object and not in a vacuum.

Word.

A piece of gold foil shaped into a large, super-thin sheet is pretty dense.

Easy now ruiner, Im pretty sure all of us agree with Jarv here. I stumbled across a movie once with Japanese subtitles only. I watched the first 10 or so minutes and was surprised at the influx of shit I was learning and acquiring. The only reason I quit was because too many kanji didn't have any furigana.

danieldesu Wrote:A piece of gold foil shaped into a large, super-thin sheet is pretty dense.

Right, density isn't the right term. Things fall at the same rate (9.8 m/s/s)in a vacuum due to lack of air/air friction. I forget what the right term is actually... air resistance?

liosama Wrote:Easy now ruiner, Im pretty sure all of us agree with Jarv here. I stumbled across a movie once with Japanese subtitles only. I watched the first 10 or so minutes and was surprised at the influx of shit I was learning and acquiring. The only reason I quit was because too many kanji didn't have any furigana.

I was joking. ^_^

Nukemarine Wrote:By the way, I agree, Science should investigate things even if it's considered "common sense". Common sense says heavier things fall faster. Science agrees, but only if it's a denser object and not in a vacuum.

Waaah? Gravity remains the same no matter what object it is. Some objects fall slower because they have air resistance acting as a force upwards to counteract gravity! Or did I miss something really vital =/

Actually, heavier objects do fall faster than lighter objects. Heavier objects create a larger gravitational field, and thus there is greater attractive force between the object and the earth. The only problem is that that force is insignificantly small.

Density has nothing to do with that though (just total mass), or with air resistance (drag). Drag is a result of surface area and aerodynamics.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Actually, heavier objects do fall faster than lighter objects. Heavier objects create a larger gravitational field, and thus there is greater attractive force between the object and the earth. The only problem is that that force is insignificantly small.

Density has nothing to do with that though (just total mass), or with air resistance (drag). Drag is a result of surface area and aerodynamics.

Gravitional Field strength =
Force =

Therefore:


Mass cancels out, leaving only M2 which is the mass of the earth.


So the mass of the object doesn't affect the acceleration due to gravity, acceleration due to gravity on earth is 9.81m/s^2 regardless of mass of the object. Air resistance is the only thing that stops a feather from falling at the same rate as an anvil. But in a vacuum that would not be the case. Have you not the seen the video of the hammer and the feather being dropped on the moon?