Has anyone watched this show? Its awesome. Its a bunch of environmentalists chasing the japanese whaling fleet off the coast of Antarctica in order to prevent them from whaling.

One thing i found interesting is the ship, the Steve Irwin, has japanese translators that need to cover their faces in order to protect their identity. Seems like the japanese gov thinks that they are eco-terrorists etc.

I found that really interesting.

I don't support whaling but I think the so called "environmentalist" on that show are a bunch of idiots. They don't accomplish anything in terms of saving whales and seem to do nothing but create hostility and risk human lives.

activeaero Wrote:I don't support whaling but I think the so called "environmentalist" on that show are a bunch of idiots. They don't accomplish anything in terms of saving whales and seem to do nothing but create hostility and risk human lives.

Everytime season they go out they lower the japanese whaling quota by 30-50%. That translates into hundreds of whales saved each year. Straight up, they save whales.

I had just heard recently about a documentry where some underwater scub divers installed camera in a part of japan where they capture dophins for aquairums and the rest get slaghatered? Not 100% on the facts, but does that ring a bell with anyone? I would like to see that.

zazen666 Wrote:I had just heard recently about a documentry where some underwater scub divers installed camera in a part of japan where they capture dophins for aquairums and the rest get slaghatered? Not 100% on the facts, but does that ring a bell with anyone? I would like to see that.

Yeah, definitely know what you're talking about. Read an interesting NYT article on it awhile ago. The name of the documentary is "The Cove". Here's a link to the site http://www.thecovemovie.com/. Also the Whale Wars thing... I just watched the South Park episode on it, which might have warped my opinion.

Haven't seen Whale Wars, but you guys might also be interested in a similar documentary "At the Edge of the World". NYT described it as: "This strikingly humane film may function as a prequel to Animal Planet's 'Whale Wars' but is light years ahead in visual clarity and narrative ambition." Some think the film offers a fairly balanced view of ethical transgressions on both sides. btw - I saw a notice on the website that Japan has issued warrants against 4 of the crew.

Here in Canada, we get Mr. and former Mrs. Paul McCartney for photo ops with seals. I'm not waiting for the documentary.

Draak Wrote:

activeaero Wrote:I don't support whaling but I think the so called "environmentalist" on that show are a bunch of idiots. They don't accomplish anything in terms of saving whales and seem to do nothing but create hostility and risk human lives.

Everytime season they go out they lower the japanese whaling quota by 30-50%. That translates into hundreds of whales saved each year. Straight up, they save whales.

Yes and from what I read it has almost nothing to do with the Sea Shepard's nor their ability to actually dramatically reduce whale deaths. Japanese whaling has been bringing in more whales than there is demand. Due to this for many years the Japanese government has been slashing the ACTUAL whale kills allowed, behind the scenes, while publishing "expected quota" numbers that are much higher. The Japanese fishery department then comes out and gets to say "Look at what those evil eco-terrorist did to the poor fisherman, they came in under the expected quota because of them". The Sea Shepherds then started jumping on the low numbers, which were the ACTUAL quotas all along, so they could say "look we are saving the whales". Of course the reality is the ships continuously met the REAL quotas every year, despite the Sea Shepard efforts to stop them.

I believe it was the Yomiuri Shinbun that exposed what the fishing agency was doing and it caused quite a stir. If I remember correctly what basically happened is that some insider came to the Yomiuri and said that the real Japanese whale quota for the year was 20% less than advertised numbers. The result of that years whale catch after it was all said and done? EXACTLY 20% less than the original publicly released figured. It means the government was doing some shady stuff with the numbers, but at the same time would mean the Sea Shepherd accomplished jack squat.

If someone wants to correct me I definitely have no problem being wrong on the matter.

I don't care about whaling one way or the other (it doesn't taste very good), but the recent South Park episode did a good job showing my criticisms of Sea Shepard and the controversy as a whole.

F*** you whaaale!

activeaero Wrote:

Draak Wrote:

activeaero Wrote:I don't support whaling but I think the so called "environmentalist" on that show are a bunch of idiots. They don't accomplish anything in terms of saving whales and seem to do nothing but create hostility and risk human lives.

Everytime season they go out they lower the japanese whaling quota by 30-50%. That translates into hundreds of whales saved each year. Straight up, they save whales.

Yes and from what I read it has almost nothing to do with the Sea Shepard's nor their ability to actually dramatically reduce whale deaths. Japanese whaling has been bringing in more whales than there is demand. Due to this for many years the Japanese government has been slashing the ACTUAL whale kills allowed, behind the scenes, while publishing "expected quota" numbers that are much higher. The Japanese fishery department then comes out and gets to say "Look at what those evil eco-terrorist did to the poor fisherman, they came in under the expected quota because of them". The Sea Shepherds then started jumping on the low numbers, which were the ACTUAL quotas all along, so they could say "look we are saving the whales". Of course the reality is the ships continuously met the REAL quotas every year, despite the Sea Shepard efforts to stop them.

I believe it was the Yomiuri Shinbun that exposed what the fishing agency was doing and it caused quite a stir. If I remember correctly what basically happened is that some insider came to the Yomiuri and said that the real Japanese whale quota for the year was 20% less than advertised numbers. The result of that years whale catch after it was all said and done? EXACTLY 20% less than the original publicly released figured. It means the government was doing some shady stuff with the numbers, but at the same time would mean the Sea Shepherd accomplished jack squat.

If someone wants to correct me I definitely have no problem being wrong on the matter.

Actually, the Japanese have INCREASED their quotas since 2005 from 500 to 940 whales. So it have no idea where you get your numbers.

When the shepperds lower the take in my 50% you can be sure that it has an inpact. Are they saving whales? Without them there prior to their campaigns the whaling fleet was meeting their quitas each year.

Draak Wrote:Actually, the Japanese have INCREASED their quotas since 2005 from 500 to 940 whales. So it have no idea where you get your numbers.

When the shepperds lower the take in my 50% you can be sure that it has an inpact. Are they saving whales? Without them there prior to their campaigns the whaling fleet was meeting their quitas each year.

You don't think you got what I said. I'm saying from my understanding some believe that the quota numbers released by the government are not real. It is simply an "expected quota" when in reality the government's true quota is much less.

For example this year the government releases a number that says "Our quota for this year is 935 whales" but then they turn around to the actual whaling ships and say "your actual quota is 679 whales".

The government can then spin the numbers to say "Oh look what the Sea Sheperds are doing to us" while the Sea Shepherds can say "Oh look we're working" when the reality might be that the ships killed the exact amount they set out to kill in the first place.

activeaero Wrote:I'm saying from my understanding some believe that the quota numbers released by the government are not real. It is simply an "expected quota" when in reality the government's true quota is much less.

For example this year the government releases a number that says "Our quota for this year is 935 whales" but then they turn around to the actual whaling ships and say "your actual quota is 679 whales".

The government can then spin the numbers to say "Oh look what the Sea Sheperds are doing to us" while the Sea Shepherds can say "Oh look we're working" when the reality might be that the ships killed the exact amount they set out to kill in the first place.

I can't find anything online that matches those statement. However, I can find some articles that claim the sea shepherds managed to reduce whaling 1 year to 50% of the quota. I also found articles stating that 2008's whale meat surplus was 4200 tonnes.

There's no doubt that demand is done, and that's probably at least in part because of the activities of the sea shepherds. (People are now aware of what's going on and refusing to eat whale meat because of it, etc.)

I do not condone the actual actions of the sea shepherds, though. That's piracy and -is- illegal. Japan is using a loophole and it may be unethical, but it's not illegal. The sea shepherds and green peace should stick to peaceful solutions such as informing the public about what's going on.

wccrawford Wrote:There's no doubt that demand is done, and that's probably at least in part because of the activities of the sea shepherds. (People are now aware of what's going on and refusing to eat whale meat because of it, etc.)

There is no controversy about whale meat IN Japan and there is no general awareness about the activities of Sea Shepherd. No one really eats whale to begin with. It is mostly used as pet food and for industrial uses. The few who do eat whale meat regularly are probably the elderly (who developed a taste for it in post-war school lunches) and they are dying off. If there IS any impact from Sea Shepherd, it's just in their driving up operating costs for the fishermen, which drives up costs for whale-meat, which makes it less enticing as a source of cheap protein for pet food. Operating costs also increase because of other unrelated reasons like oil prices, cost of living wage increases, an aging workforce, and rural depopulation though.

There is no ethical reason not to eat whale meat (not that it would matter if there was one, ivory is common in Japan for use as inkan). The whales they hunt are not a species at risk of extinction. Whales are purportedly intelligent, but so are pigs. Sea Shepherd are not environmentalists, they just really like whales for some reason. The only way it's not hypocritical to be against Japanese whaling is if you're a vegan.

Jarvik7 Wrote:There is no ethical reason not to eat whale meat (not that it would matter if there was one, ivory is common in Japan for use as inkan). The whales they hunt are not a species at risk of extinction. Whales are purportedly intelligent, but so are pigs. Sea Shepherd are not environmentalists, they just really like whales for some reason. The only way it's not hypocritical to be against Japanese whaling is if you're a vegan.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Jarvik7 Wrote:There is no ethical reason not to eat whale meat (not that it would matter if there was one, ivory is common in Japan for use as inkan). The whales they hunt are not a species at risk of extinction. Whales are purportedly intelligent, but so are pigs. Sea Shepherd are not environmentalists, they just really like whales for some reason. The only way it's not hypocritical to be against Japanese whaling is if you're a vegan.

Whilst some people may have ethical reasons not to eat whale meat (think moral relativism), I do agree that unless you're vegan (or at the very least vegetarian) not only is it hypocritical, but also useless to be against whaling.
"Poor little whales, let's discuss how to save them over fried chicken and hamburgers." yuck!

What if you believe that whales have human-like intelligence?

What if you believe that cows have human-like intelligence?

Though really, any animal could posses human-like intelligence, but there is no way to prove it. In fact there is there is no way we can even prove human's have sentience. You can prove to yourself that you are sentient (by the fact that you can think for yourself) but as far as you are concerned, there is no way to prove that everyone else isn't just blindly following pre-programmed instructions.

I believe that whale supporters are just seduced by the luscious curves of our sea mammals. BBW, oh yeah!

I liked the south park episode about it.

As long as it doesn't drive whales into extinction, like we are doing with other things we over-fish in the sea, I don't see any problem with it. Killing one whale feeds as many people as one could with (tens of?) thousands of chickens. We Americans, with our huge meat portions, have no moral authority to tell the Japanese what is ethical to kill or eat. Especially given we are killing humans in the Middle East right now.

...Anyways, whale and dolphin shouldn't have bombed Hiroshima.

bombpersons Wrote:What if you believe that cows have human-like intelligence?

Though really, any animal could posses human-like intelligence, but there is no way to prove it. In fact there is there is no way we can even prove human's have sentience. You can prove to yourself that you are sentient (by the fact that you can think for yourself) but as far as you are concerned, there is no way to prove that everyone else isn't just blindly following pre-programmed instructions.

You should read some Daniel Dennett! Might change how you think about consciousness (and 'the problem of other minds' - I was going to make another reference/tangent but I don't want to give away any secrets).

OK here's a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional...nd_replies

Jarvik7 Wrote:The few who do eat whale meat regularly are probably the elderly (who developed a taste for it in post-war school lunches) and they are dying off.

There was whale in my school lunch last year, so it still continues, though not as common, as it's only been once in the year and 2 months I've been teaching. I still refused to eat it.

I liked the end of the South Park episode though- a good point about cows and chickens (and pigs).

Most people that are against whaling probably have been brought up with the viewpoint that whales are "majestic" beings, unlike cows and pigs, which are just normal. It feels more like you're killing something at a higher level, even if that isn't the case.

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vrtgo Wrote:I can't believe people here are writing in defense of whaling! You people are leprechaun!

Ok, I'll bite: Why is someone an leprechaun for defending the killing of cow for a hamburger?

They posted their reasons, shouldn't you at least quote the reasons they give in defense then offer a retort. Saying someone is an leprechaun for taking an opposing stance you don't agree with usually means you don't have much to stand on to defend your side.

Remember though, what you offer must be in keeping with other actions. So if you are ok with killing cows and chickens, then you can't use that argument. If it's a vegan issue, well, that applies to more than just whaling.

PS: not going on either side here, but name calling detracts from the interesting thread this became.

vrtgo Wrote:I can't believe people here are writing in defense of whaling! You people are leprechaun!

Just for that, I now support the machine gunning of whales for sport, like the buffalo before them.

But yes, what makes whaling less moral than shooting brown people for cheap oil, killing cows for hamburgers (cows are sacred in India), hunting deer for sport (deer are sacred in Nara), killing monkeys to test pharmaceuticals (monkeys are sacred in many places), killing chickens for nuggets (I don't think anyone worships chickens), killing rats/mice/insects in your home because you find them creepy, or exploiting workers in countries with poor labour standard for cheap consumer goods?

Even if all of those acts are immoral in your mind (vegan?), you should be campaigning for change at home before you tell people on the other side of the planet what they should be having for dinner.

In any case, I don't think anyone here is pro-whaling, just anti-hypocritical-egocentric-cultural-imperialist.

vrtgo Wrote:I can't believe people here are writing in defense of whaling! You people are leprechaun!

Do you eat tuna? Because if we're talking about sustainability I've got some bad news for you...