Ok, I am doing a unusual route... I did have some exposure to japanese before starting
RtK and I am at the beginning of the third part right now. I did cram the kana pretty brute force, which was not that effective, but worked.

So I know the kana, a little grammar and a few words. Nothing special. I started the Core 2000 series on smart.fm. And I am having little trouble using smart.fm iKnow! To the part where I have to write the word. Often I have everything right, until I am support to enter the word, at which point it fails me completely. I guess it has to do with the option to eleminate all the other choices in the other cases but still, it strikes me that I have such a hard time remembering vocab. English is not my native language but that has only struck me with RtK occationally on a few words.

Long intro short question: how do you memorize, say 10 or 20, facts so that you can completely recall them? And how much time does it take you?

Put in Anki, study your misses. End.

If you miss certain items over and over, try to make them shorter.

I review recognition side only (do I know what this word/sentence means?). If I miss one, I go through the list again 'till I get them all. I use a paper list with English on one side and Japanese (kana) on the other. After three days, I can get more than 15 items without trouble. That's good enough - it's time to move on to the next 20-item list.

Seriously it's a LOT easier if you learn the kanji first...

Basically plonk it into anki and you will know it forever =) (assuming you keep reviewing)

My main study routine now is to go to http://www.hiragana.jp/ and paste in http://www.fnn-news.com so I can read the headlines with the aid of hiragana for Kanji I do not recognize. I click a story and read the headline several times, then watch the news story for that headline several times on a loop by clicking "High" on the Windows Media Player control also clicking for full screen.
It uses no English so is perfect for someone whose first language is not English or going full Japanese immersion with context. It also helps keeping up with Japanese current events in what ever area is of interest to you: 国際, 社会, 政治, 経済, スポーツ, 話題. The アーカイブ link has interesting videos as well.

...Oh yea, there has to be a second window http://www.fnn-news.com open to watch the videos I think. At least for me it will not allow the videos in the hiragana mode

I think the only answer is just more practice? I did smart.fm lists before ever starting RTK and I seemed to recall them fine. Just get some more practice in there, and you should be fine.

Thanks for all the replys so far, I sure won't stop doing RtK and I'm shooting for 1.12, to be done with RtK 1 and have done all the reviews quite a few times.

That hiragana.jp link is great, thanks.

I do have a stack of doraemon mangas lying around here, 1 to ~10 or so, all original jp. But I can't read any of 'em yet. I plan on completing the Core 2000 series, as well as the Minna No Nihongo vocab. I've used Anki before to study for my math degree, but I have the feeling that for an initial memorization solution this is not optimal, to retain things definetly.

That's why I was wondering if you used any special method to do the initial memorization of completely foreign matter.

@bombpersons: what exactly made it so much easier after RtK?

bombpersons Wrote:Seriously it's a LOT easier if you learn the kanji first...

angerman Wrote:@bombpersons: what exactly made it so much easier after RtK?

There is a sticky that explains how RTK helps with learning to read/write Japanese.

Frustrated with the new smart.fm (for now) I did searches for other Japanese TV news stations. There are some really nice ones besides FNN:
NHK
ANN
TBS
TV TOKYO

They all have (almost) exact transcripts to read along while listening to the videos.

Edit: I have since started using Rikaichan rather than Hiragana Megane as it doesn't interfere with the videos. Though Rikaichan does give the English definitions so that hurts with immersion.

That's why I was wondering if you used any special method to do the initial memorization of completely foreign matter.

I think most people will sneer at this, but I recently started learning Cantonese using a mnemonic system, rather than brute-forcing new words.

My method so far is a variant of AJATT - constant Cantonese audio, and for new words and grammar, my good lady-friend speaks new words in the context of sentences down a mike into Anki, where they're paired with appropriate pictures.

For completely new sounds, I'm linking them in some way to English words - for example, ji2, paper, is memorized as wear paper jeans, along with a suitable visualisation of it (a la Heisig). The jea in jeans is consistent for that sound, until such time as I can immediately recall the actual Cantonese sound ji2 to form new mnemonics for other words (e.g. faai3 ji2, chopsticks).

For almost every card, there's only one new word too, and they're limited to 8-10 syllables. My task is simply to understand what's said in each card.

Grammar is something I just absorb however - there's at least 4 or 5 cards for each new element of grammar encountered. I don't think there's any point devising a
system for that, as there's much less grammar than words.

The problem with this method is that you must pick a sound that's an accurate represenation of the new sound, or else it's possible to mis-learn it - although the immersion environment does a grand job of correcting that.

Hope that helps - I'm very happy with the results so far, and it's how I'd go with any further new languages I'd pursue : )

*seconded*

Adding twenty sentences and doing reviews (including digging them out of source materials, writing the new compounds in a word-list and putting them in Anki) takes me about four hours daily. It's a maddeningly long time, considering this practice gives me very little functional (practical) experience with the Japanese language. The worst part about it is how deeply unsatisfying the whole process has turned out to be. The AJATT thing is supposed to be fun, but I feel a very, very long way away from being able to use materials for native speakers. Seven months in, now, I've been studying my effing brains out, and I can barely hold a two minute conversation, let alone a native-speaker's interest.

Forgive the rant, please. I've caught the dreaded swine flu from my students, I am unpaid for the (mandatory) time off, and I'm so wrecked by being sick that SRS reviews are next-to-impossible. Thusly, I am in an ornery mood. Working in Anki is a lot of living in your own head. It can be a little crazy-making. Now it's six PM Tokyo-time, and I'd like to do some Japanese learning...

Anyway, I too am interested in how you folks memorize sentences/vocab, and I'm interested in whether or how this translates to _functional_ language abilities -- the ones that enable you to communicate and share meaning with other people in real-world contexts.

vrtgo Wrote:*seconded*

Adding twenty sentences and doing reviews (including digging them out of source materials, writing the new compounds in a word-list and putting them in Anki) takes me about four hours daily. It's a maddeningly long time, considering this practice gives me very little functional (practical) experience with the Japanese language. The worst part about it is how deeply unsatisfying the whole process has turned out to be. The AJATT thing is supposed to be fun, but I feel a very, very long way away from being able to use materials for native speakers. Seven months in, now, I've been studying my effing brains out, and I can barely hold a two minute conversation, let alone a native-speaker's interest.

Forgive the rant, please. I've caught the dreaded swine flu from my students, I am unpaid for the (mandatory) time off, and I'm so wrecked by being sick that SRS reviews are next-to-impossible. Thusly, I am in an ornery mood. Working in Anki is a lot of living in your own head. It can be a little crazy-making. Now it's six PM Tokyo-time, and I'd like to do some Japanese learning...

Anyway, I too am interested in how you folks memorize sentences/vocab, and I'm interested in whether or how this translates to _functional_ language abilities -- the ones that enable you to communicate and share meaning with other people in real-world contexts.

I think you're adding a lot of extra and unneccessary steps there. I don't see the point in adding new compounds to a vocabulary list - if a word is already in Anki, it's already memorized. Why does it take a long time to do reps, and why does it take a long time to input sentences? The best sentences are short (for Japanese, probably >15 syllables), and the very best ones will have only one new thing in them that you want to learn. It's tempting to grab more than one item per sentence, but resist the urge - it makes it breakingly harder in the long run.

Also, try and prioritize electronic media for your sentence snatching - it's much easier to copy and paste than it is to type. If there's a picture nearby the text, I'd take that into Anki too - 1) it makes text less boring to look at and 2) it makes recalling cards easier (I've found that you actually learn an awful lot more this way).

I trust you're also learning ALL the words you're putting into your sentences in Anki BEFORE you start reviewing? SRSs are only useful for things you've already memorized - if you're finding this difficult, use mnemonics to massively streamline the process. It doesn't have to be as in-depth as those you use for kanji, as recall will be easier from sentence context, as well as those lovely pictures you're pasting in.

Finally, can you touch-type? If not, might be a useful thing to learn to streamline adding new material if you're determined to use paper sources. Finally finally finally do you have a tablet? I've found that I can quickly look up unfamiliar characters if I can directly draw them in, even if I don't know the meaning. Even better is that Anki has a facility to give you their readings automatically.

Anyway, that's what I'd do in the name of streamlining your learning.

Quote:SRSs are only useful for things you've already memorized - if you're finding this difficult, use mnemonics to massively streamline the process.

I think this is the core we try to get at. What exactly is it you do (having examples would even more awesome) to ge the memorization correct?

The initial problem is, having lots of very foreign sounding vocabulary, and a very hard time making up memorable mnemonics.

angerman Wrote:

Quote:SRSs are only useful for things you've already memorized - if you're finding this difficult, use mnemonics to massively streamline the process.

I think this is the core we try to get at. What exactly is it you do (having examples would even more awesome) to ge the memorization correct?

The initial problem is, having lots of very foreign sounding vocabulary, and a very hard time making up memorable mnemonics.

angerman Wrote:That's why I was wondering if you used any special method to do the initial memorization of completely foreign matter.

I guess... read them, and think about them. If you just don't get it, ask for help or leave it for later. Write it down on paper, say it out loud. Mnemonics might help too.

One thing I do when SRSing is when I add new cards, I wait until the next day to review them. Ex, i do reviews, go through new cards from yesterday, then add new cards to study tomorrow. It just adds a bit more repetition, so you don't have to wait 3-5 days to review something you've only seen once while making the card.

By the way, the more you get used to the language, the less "foreign" and difficult it will feel, and it'll be easier to remember and read stuff. The same with learning; the more you learn, the more you train your brain and the easier it gets(to a certain point).

I'm finding it really hard to remember words in Japanese. I mean every now and then something will stick like 夜 and 天気予報, but most of the time I learn it and not 10 minutes later, *poof*. Gone. I write it down, I say the word in my head and throw it in my SRS, but by the time my first review is up I just can't recall it.

I think I've got 90 half assed sentences down with just the concept of whats going on, but I can't even recall how to say them.


I've got 2 questions:

1. How much time do you dedicate to a new sentence
2. How many do you learn a day?



Thanks.

Like somebody said, kanji first. This will really really help ^-^

Then, when you find a word you want to learn, take a little time with it. Make discovering the meaning of the word an important event. Put some drama into it. Type the word into the dictionary entry field in slow motion. Hum theme music. Read the definition out loud (if you're still using J-E dictionaries at this point) in your best movie trailer voice. Then, find an example sentence for it. If there are several, pick the one that fits your character the most. Say the sentence in your best "I'm a crazy anime character voice". Put it in Anki. Write it down a couple of times.

I think after doing this, you will *know* the word. You should even mostly know the sentence. If you don't, don't worry about it. If it comes up in Anki and you don't know it, fail it! I learned this while doing the kanji. TAKE PRIDE IN YOUR FAILURE! If I look at the kanji I failed the most while doing RTK, they are the ones I don't think I will ever, ever forget. Failing means it is something your brain really needs, but finds hard to grasp. Put more effort into it.

While doing all of this, just do your best not to hate the word/sentence. If you hate it, don't learn it. If it is important, it will come up again later. Be picky, but be prolific. Add in lots and then weed out the ones you hate.

For me, it never takes more than 5 minutes to do the initial "learning" of a word. Sometimes I don't take a whole lot of care to learn it in the first place, because I guessed its meaning from context where I was reading.

A card's history in anki will be a lot less painful if you learn it first. If you don't, though, Anki will kinda force you to, so don't worry so much. Everybody gets so angry and testy over this stuff. SRSing is just a good way to help yourself remember stuff. The real learning goes on when you're in your environment... listening to and reading Japanese. So go listen to and read Japanese stuff!

The more time I spend on Japanese news websites the more I am thinking of abandoning every other form of studying I am using and just doing that. If you watch the news everyday it becomes almost like Japanese ドラマ. Except in actual dramas (especially movies) they may speak ten words a minute making the study aspect of it not very efficient.
#1- Get Rikaichan for Firefox:
#2- Add these websites to your bookmarks:
FNN
NHK
ANN
TBS
TV TOKYO
#3- Pick a story that looks interesting
#4- Blow up your screen size 200% to see the detail in the kanji
#5- Read the transcripts for the clip while using Rikaichan to get the meaning of the words and an idea of how they will sound when read by the broadcaster.
#6- Read the transcripts while listening to the video clip a few times with Windows Media Player on slow speed (The broadcasters speak really fast)
#7- Watch the video clip without the transcript while the news drama unfolds getting clear context for what you studied.
#8- Move on to the next story

I'll share my process.

Two Anki decks. One is for smart.fm, using Kanji Odyssey Sentence Lists that I auto import in, the other is for anything else, jpod101 stuff for now, music, native media for the future. I add the sentences and learn them in anki, and on my ipod.

I unsuspend 5 cards from the KO smartfm. each day. At this time I take a snapshot of the sentence, and copy the audio into audacity. Save the sentence to mp3, and label it. Do this for each sentence and then drop the files into itunes. In itunes, paste the snapshot of the sentence in the "album cover art", then drop the new sentences into a playlist on my ipod for the day. It sounds like a lot of steps, but only takes about 10 minuets, and now I have the new sentences to study for the day. Next I review the cards in anki, edit in dictionary definitions, and read/study example sentences. If I feel motivated and like a different example sentence, I may add a new card, just to get another angle on the target word in anki. I usually go through the five new cards and get an initial understanding of the sentence, then grade it hard, or leave it failed. Now I go about my day, using the ipod to study it, with a nice big picture on the touch screen to read. I pause and play, shadow and read. I think about the meaning of the words, and might try to form my own sentences with them. Sometimes I contemplate one word, or the whole phrase. Sometimes I let them play in a rapid stream. Having checked the definition once, it is almost always enough to remember the meaning of the sentence. Lately I have been sharing my new words with my Japanese friend at school, and she will throw some examples at me, and may test me or have me use the word in a sentence. And I can ask her questions about how it's used, etc. I don't get to do this everyday, but it is an added bonus when I can, and helps me tremendously to make it "stick". I study this playlist throughout the day, with the goal of learning it, and facilitating it from the super short term memory to the next layer of my mind (whatever that is). I study whenever I can, which often is not as much as I would like. If I am bored with it, I just listen to some J music or a podcast, but I try to put some time into it, even if it's only 5 or 10 minuets here or there.

At the end of the day I clear my reviews in both decks. On days with more free time, I mine into the other deck (jpod stuff) and do the same thing. The jpod lessons are much easier to remember, because i get a story with CONTEXT to use and study (also ripping the etire conversation onto the ipod) as well, and it sticks better that way. But I do the KO list to get the vocab, and it is less labor intensive. At five a day it is doable too. Many people seem to do way more then that, but I find it to be too much for me, and I get it all mixed up, and end up feeling like I learned nothing. A steady diet of smaller portions works better for me. I hope with time I can up the ante.

So I learn on my ipod, and the troublesome ones I fail many times in anki, and end up learning them there too. I need a heavy dose of audio, because for me the biggest challenge is remembering how to say the word, and being able to understand it if I hear it.

Also, the first thing I do in the morning, before I get out of bed, is check my playlist, pausing and reading each of the previous days sentences, then playing them to see if I got it. The ones I can't pronounce (I basically always know the meanings of the sentences) I leave in the playlist. The ones I get, I move into another playlist, that has all the sentences from the last month or so. Every now and again I will play this on shuffle, or play from the archive of ALL my sentences, just to keep them from getting dull (yes I know the SRS takes care of all of that, but I like a little more than what anki gives me).

Oh yeah, and kanji first! The more RTK you have under your belt the easier it all digests.

Oh one more thing - If the sentence has 2 or 3 new words I usually just learn them. If it seems like too much, I will just throw the word in by itself, or find an example sentence I can work with. Of course if there is no audio I can't learn it in the ipod, so I just work with these infrequent words in anki (90% plus have audio I think).

@FL1PPY - I have the same problem as you, and this method I use is a big help. I also use mnemonics to help me remember the kana/pronunciation. And IceCream is right - CONTEXT is king! I just haven't had the time or knowhow to get into the subs2srs thing going (and lack media to use it with). At some point I want to figure out how to utilize this amazing study tool!

bodhisamaya Wrote:The more time I spend on Japanese news websites the more I am thinking of abandoning every other form of studying I am using and just doing that. If you watch the news everyday it becomes almost like Japanese ドラマ. Except in actual dramas (especially movies) they may speak ten words a minute making the study aspect of it not very efficient.
#1- Get Rikaichan for Firefox:
#2- Add these websites to your bookmarks:
FNN
NHK
ANN
TBS
TV TOKYO
#3- Pick a story that looks interesting
#4- Blow up your screen size 200% to see the detail in the kanji
#5- Read the transcripts for the clip while using Rikaichan to get the meaning of the words and an idea of how they will sound when read by the broadcaster.
#6- Read the transcripts while listening to the video clip a few times with Windows Media Player on slow speed (The broadcasters speak really fast)
#7- Watch the video clip without the transcript while the news drama unfolds getting clear context for what you studied.
#8- Move on to the next story

If you read the recent posts about Japanese drama subs, you'll know that the new Japanese dramas on d-addicts now come with exact Japanese subtitles(automatically extracted from the video stream).

So you can study the complete Japanese script for the new Japanese dramas this season.
IMHO, it's even better than manga, since it's the actual dialogue that is spoken by the actors.
It's about as practical as you can get in terms of learning material for Japanese conversation.
You can review the whole script before and/or after watching the episode and SRS anything you feel is noteworthy.

Learning from news articles does have it's own merit(i.e. you can watch the news and read newspaper articles). So I wouldn't count on it necessarily improving your casual speaking ability. BUT.........if some breaking news story suddenly sweeps across Japan, you be able to have conversations with people about it in Japanese.... :-p

Honestly, I think diversity is the key.

The more diverse your native sources the greater the variety of situations you'll
be prepared for at any given moment. Learn Japanese in as many different contexts
as you are able to do (at a reasonable pace).

Don't just stick to one. For example, I learned a new grammar pattern (よりによって) in a short novel. The meaning was easy to figure out and the phrase seemed useful. I used the grammar patterns while talking to a native speakers and they gave me this "what the *****?!" look on their face. They told me the pattern is only used in writing, even though they fully understand what I was saying. It's just weird to hear people talk like novels........LOL.......


Also, did you ever see that American movie where the Asian guy learned English via listening to sports broadcasters?.....every one of his sentences sounded like a sports broadcast.....LOL......that's why you don't just want to rely solely on the news..

TaylorSan Wrote:In itunes, paste the snapshot of the sentence in the "album cover art", then drop the new sentences into a playlist on my ipod for the day.

Wow that's an amazing idea!!! I think I'm going to start doing this.


Also yeah, I guess lately I've been kind of stressed because I want to learn as much I can as fast as I can, but it always seems like I'm limited to learning 10 sentences a day, and that just doesn't satisfy me. Kanji was wayyy easier to learn IMO.

I don't know, maybe I'm just too eager. Like I said I've been stressing over it and well.. that just isn't the AJATT way.

Yeah I was feeling the stress thing too. I would do ten or 20+ in a day, but couldn't keep it up. Then I'd spend many days just untangling all the new stuff, and wouldn't add more. This led to more frustration, because I was behind my goals. It became super inefficient. I think I've finally found a good steady pace, that I can increase as I go. And after some trial and error, I am super efficient in setting up my ipod with a flow of actions, and minimal wasted motions.

The tortoise beat the hare, because he was steady, consistent, and tireless. Quality over quantity! Let your learning and motivation dictate your pace, and start with something that keeps a little tension, but is within your ability to solidify. My take on it, is that cramming too much too fast will just cause burn out, and a weaker understanding of the language. These new words and concepts need a little room to breath! Get zen with it, and it will all flow, and eventually will naturally gain speed and momentum (or so I imagine).

The most interesting video study I ever did with Japanese CC was the Japanese dubbed Discovery series. I used to go and watch them every day at the A/V department in the Nara Prefectural library. It was the funnest way to study ever. As in the English version of Discovery, the documentaries are spoken in a clear, non-rushed, yet well paced voice. It was really easy to follow along with the subtitles (though I had little idea what they meant at the time).

bodhisamaya Wrote:The more time I spend on Japanese news websites the more I am thinking of abandoning every other form of studying I am using and just doing that. If you watch the news everyday it becomes almost like Japanese ドラマ. Except in actual dramas (especially movies) they may speak ten words a minute making the study aspect of it not very efficient.
#1- Get Rikaichan for Firefox:
#2- Add these websites to your bookmarks:
FNN
NHK
ANN
TBS
TV TOKYO
#3- Pick a story that looks interesting
#4- Blow up your screen size 200% to see the detail in the kanji
#5- Read the transcripts for the clip while using Rikaichan to get the meaning of the words and an idea of how they will sound when read by the broadcaster.
#6- Read the transcripts while listening to the video clip a few times with Windows Media Player on slow speed (The broadcasters speak really fast)
#7- Watch the video clip without the transcript while the news drama unfolds getting clear context for what you studied.
#8- Move on to the next story

How do you get FNN to use WMP? It seems to use Flash for me. Also, there's a slow setting?

strugglebunny Wrote:How do you get FNN to use WMP? It seems to use Flash for me. Also, there's a slow setting?

On the main page, WMP does from around a 30 minute~1 hour loop of several stories.
Scroll down half the page. WMP will be on the right side below Flash.
Watch full screen by left double clicking. If the screen is right clicked, play speed is displayed giving the option for fast, normal or slow.
If you go to an individual story, it loops the same story continuously. That is also where the transcripts are.

Tell me this isn't drama!
指名手配の市橋達也容疑者　整形後の写真公開
The guy is wanted in the death of an English lecturer's daughter from two years ago. So he underwent plastic surgery to change his appearance. The police have life sized posters around with a button where you can hear his voice. It has been my favorite story the last several days.

Ah thanks! Sounds like a good regiment..hopefully I'll be able to add that to my routine. I need to catch up on news anyhow.

News with transcripts seems pretty awesome -- it's still above my level though, I'm not understanding most of the words. (Right now I'm done with 40% RtK1 and I'm taking a 3rd-year college course.)

What kind of preparation did you guys have when you started to benefit from following newscasts? I assume all of RtK1, but what else?