So in the past few months I've become good friends with a local college student. He is a Japanese native from Nagoya and was recently hired by NTT/Docomo and will start working April 1st, 2010. He believes he will be stationed at one of NTT's Tokyo offices and has asked me to be roommates with him.

I'm naturally excited for the following reasons:

1. The apartment will be in his name with his parents as guarantors.
2. I will no longer be limited to finding a "foreigner friendly" apartment complex and apartment agency. Searching the "native" apartment websites, which we've been doing together, is finally like "ah finally". 1000x more apartments to choose from with WAY better deals for apartments of equal condition.

The question both of us have is:

Will it really be problem free for me to live there as long as everything is handled by a Japanese native with all paper work in a Japanese natives name? My friend is slightly rebellious (which I don't mind) and basically has the mindset of "If it is in my name, we're paying the rent on time, and we're good tenants then screw'em, they can't do anything". However, he seems to think it won't be a problem at all but after telling him of some of the problems foreigners have in finding apartments he wouldn't mind some insight. I definitely wouldn't want him to get screwed over some how.

Any other advice would naturally be appreciated.


That all being said have any of you lived near Yoyogi sta.? We're really liking some of the apartments we're finding in that area. It splits Shibuya (2min) and Shinjuku(4min), provides fast routes to both the language school that I want to attend and most of the probable NTT offices he thinks he might be stationed at, and just seems like a darn cool place to live.

Well-if he did put everything in his name and handles payments and such, and there was little chance of them finding out you lived there, then I imagine there would be many more apartments to choose from and yes-you can skip past all that bs about finding friendly apartments.

And I would say that since most owners dont live near their aratments, the you would likely be safe.

However, it is usually the law that who ever is living there needs to have their name on the contract. I can imagine that some potential apartments would turn you down with that situation, even if you were upfont and honest. BS, but their it is.

Hmm, I would probaly do what ever got me into the kind of aparment I wanted to live in, with enough space, close to a station, decent rent, etc.

Hopefully you won't need this but it will come in handy should you need it: Write up an agreement that states that you will be living with this person and from what date and how long, how much you are expected to pay, what your duties as a tenant will be, and so on. In this case you may want it in both languages, unless your future roommate is fine with English...

I strongly advise this for any situation where you will be living somewhere without a contract, because otherwise when there's a disagreement in the verbal agreement, it all boils down to who can kick out who, which in this case, your roommate would have every right to kick you out. (Knock on wood, things don't get this bad)

...I've been in shared homes where there was only a verbal agreement, and they always ended somewhat poorly (who pays the phone bill? who's supposed to take out the garbage? who gets keys to the place? when do we want to have quiet time? who's responsibility is it to upkeep the kitchen? who pays how much of the rent?)

Things are a little harder to refute when they're set in stone, or in this case, a piece of paper that everyone read and signed.

You haven't said you would be doing this, but I would strongly advise against trying to pull one over on a landlord. If the policy of the building is "no foreigners" and you are found out either through another tenant informing the agency or landlord (I know of this happening) or by the agency/landlord some other way it will be an ugly situation.

edit: spelling correction

markal Wrote:You haven't said you would be doing this, but I would strong advise against trying to pull one over on a landlord. If the policy of the building is "no foreigners" and you are found out either through another tenant informing the agency or landlord (I know of this happening) or by the agency/landlord some other way it will be an ugly situation.

That's intense. They really have buildings where no foreigners are allowed to live? That's totally unthinkable where I live.

Unless the landlord lives in the building, the chances of him finding out are slim. I lived for about 1.5 years with my ex-girlfriend in her apartment without informing the landlord. She wanted to kick me out a few times but I basically said "fu I'm not leaving, I pay rent too", but legally she could have had me removed since I wasn't in the contract.

If you are staying there off the contract, you have no legal rights. Your friend can boot you out any time if you have a falling out.

There are no buildings where foreigners are not allowed to live. There are, however, landlords who don't like renting to foreigners because they are afraid of problems stemming from cultural differences and that they'll be unable to communicate with the tenant because of the language barrier.

For the most part I think that they are justified (just take a look at gaijinpot forums to see the average foreigner in Japan), but it sucks for the rest of us well-behaved Japanese speaking foreigners.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I lived for about 1.5 years with my ex-girlfriend in her apartment without informing the landlord. She wanted to kick me out a few times but I basically said "fu I'm not leaving, I pay rent too"...

... us well-behaved Japanese speaking foreigners.

hmm... ;-)

lovers' spat != gaijin ditching the country without paying off his rent/having loud parties

Jarvik7 Wrote:Unless the landlord lives in the building, the chances of him finding out are slim. I lived for about 1.5 years with my ex-girlfriend in her apartment without informing the landlord. She wanted to kick me out a few times but I basically said "fu I'm not leaving, I pay rent too", but legally she could have had me removed since I wasn't in the contract.

If you are staying there off the contract, you have no legal rights. Your friend can boot you out any time if you have a falling out.

There are no buildings where foreigners are not allowed to live. There are, however, landlords who don't like renting to foreigners because they are afraid of problems stemming from cultural differences and that they'll be unable to communicate with the tenant because of the language barrier.

For the most part I think that they are justified (just take a look at gaijinpot forums to see the average foreigner in Japan), but it sucks for the rest of us well-behaved Japanese speaking foreigners.

Thanks for clearing that up and yes I'm in agreeance. Theres nothing worse than problems arising due to lack of understanding.

Jarvik7 Wrote:For the most part I think that they are justified

I was about to furiously disagree but..

Quote:(just take a look at gaijinpot forums to see the average foreigner in Japan)

Reflecting on my experiences in Japan that might actually be true.

a friend of mine in tokyo lived with his japanese gf for about 6 months without any apparent problems, it was also a massive apt complex too. he did finally have to move out (not because of the landlord but because of her parents)

anyways he eventually found a foreigner friendly guest house, so like everyone else has been saying, it probably depends on the landlord and the apt complex. when i was in tokyo people were telling me that shinjuku is cheaper than shibuya area but they aren't far away, maybe 30 min on foot (from experience). overall it's a cool area to be in. it's the real heart of the city as far as activity and stuff going on.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Unless the landlord lives in the building, the chances of him finding out are slim. I lived for about 1.5 years with my ex-girlfriend in her apartment without informing the landlord. She wanted to kick me out a few times but I basically said "fu I'm not leaving, I pay rent too", but legally she could have had me removed since I wasn't in the contract.

If you are staying there off the contract, you have no legal rights. Your friend can boot you out any time if you have a falling out.

There are no buildings where foreigners are not allowed to live. There are, however, landlords who don't like renting to foreigners because they are afraid of problems stemming from cultural differences and that they'll be unable to communicate with the tenant because of the language barrier.

For the most part I think that they are justified (just take a look at gaijinpot forums to see the average foreigner in Japan), but it sucks for the rest of us well-behaved Japanese speaking foreigners.

It is kind of unusual for Japanese to have roommates. Normally they live with their family, partner or alone.

Not sure what to say about Jarvik's comment. Yes there are buildings where foreigners aren't allowed to live. The landlord simply won't rent to foreigners. Just like bars, clubs, onsens, guesthouses etc that won't allow foreigners in, or restaurants that won't serve you (yes it did happen to me once!). It may be because they are worried about being able to communicate with the tenant, but strangely enough even if you are totally fluent in japanese and have lived in japan for some time it may make no difference. See for example debito's website, where his half japanese daughter was refused access to an onsen.

Gaijinpot is hardly representative of the average foreigner in Japan. And just because a few poorly behaving foreigners may have caused trouble at some point somewhere (not for the landlord in question since he has probably never rented to a foreigner), it doesn't mean you can justify discriminating against a whole planet.

Some of you guys really look at Japan through rose-tinted lenses.

Thanks for the input so far.

I'm not really that concerned about getting "kicked out" (apart from losing my part of the reikin/shikin), in terms of my ability to survive that is, as I've been planning on moving their alone with much higher rental rates.

What I'm trying to gauge is the risk to reward ratio. For example, let's say we find an awesome apartment exactly where we want. Maybe the manager doesn't care for foreigners, but also doesn't live in the building and is generally clueless about his tenants. If we ask up front and we get denied we lose out on a good apartment...an apartment we could have lived in for years without issue if we would have just neglected to mention the possibility of a foreign tenant.

Can you usually acquire the managements tenant "preference" before meeting anyone in person? If so we could simply call under a false name and check things out before approaching them officially.

My lease has a clause in it that says I have to notify the landlord/realtor (same person in my case) before having a long term guest or taking on a roommate of any sort.

However, I think that since you'd have a Japanese roommate/guarantor then that will probably shield you from some of the not renting to foreigners stuff. Basically they get leery of communication issues/a tenant skipping the country without taking care of terminating the lease and utilities. But they can probably talk directly to your roommate instead.

There ARE cases where the landlord lives in the building (true in a few of my friend's cases) or just up the street (my case). But I didn't find out who my landlord was until after all the paperwork had been completed. But I'd say maybe test the waters with a few places that you're interested in (but not necessarily your first choice) to see what sort of reaction you guys get. The real estate agency's site may have something about their policy on renting to foreigners, but it might also depend on the individual landlord.

I lived in an apartment with a Japanese (ex) girlfriend, twice. Not registering under your name saves a lot of effort and trouble I think. And it means you can leave any time, a situation that has a good chance to occur. Things move fast in Tokyo.

If you don't tell the landlord, fine. The worst that can happen is that he kicks you out which will cost you nothing, he can't proof anything anyway. You might "just be visiting now and then". Anyway, it's likely that nothing will happen at all. And the Japanese guy carries the risk anyway.
You could write stuff up on paper/contract with that guy like somebody said, but I wouldn't bother. Legal affairs like that are quite uncommon and the gains from them don't justify the huge effort (and costs probably) to sue or whatever it is that you would be doing with it. It is especially useless if you are staying there secretly anyway.

One of the apartments I lived in was near Yoyogi, nice place, especially when you're new in Japan or simply like to do a lot of city-center stuff. You can walk or ride bicycles to shinjuku, harajuku, yoyogi park, shibuya etc. Try out Gut's Soul near the station, a simple Yakiniku place with inexpensive "all you can eat and drink" plans. There used to be a small arcade game hall above it, where you could play some older streetfighter games for 50 Yen. Not sure if it's still there. Ah the memories!

MeNoSavvy Wrote:Gaijinpot is hardly representative of the average foreigner in Japan. And just because a few poorly behaving foreigners may have caused trouble at some point somewhere (not for the landlord in question since he has probably never rented to a foreigner), it doesn't mean you can justify discriminating against a whole planet.

It is very representative of western foreigners in my experience. Many see Japan as a temporary playground, and so have no qualms about leaving the country without paying off their cellphone bills or rent, leaving the apartment a wreck, having loud parties or otherwise being loud, not sorting garbage, not understanding customary move-out etc fees, and so on. That's not even including the fact that the landlord cannot directly communicate to most foreigners due to the language barrier. It makes sense that a landlord will want to avoid working with a foreign tenant when it is so much more (potential) hassle for him/her. I would probably do the same if there were potential Japanese tenants lined up for the same room. The situation is likely to change in the future due to higher vacancy rates though.

Yes even foreigners who have accustomed themselves to Japan and speak fluently get the same treatment, but that is just a foot in the door issue. The landlord doesn't know you and so doesn't know that you'd be an acceptable tenant. There is probably something that can be done about this, like some sort of service that interviews prospective tenants to determine their language ability and knowledge of a tenant's responsibilities.

There is certainly a stereotype of foreigners in Japan and discrimination that arises from that, but it is the poor behaviour of foreigners in Japan that has created that stereotype to begin with. I didn't say it was a good thing (in fact I said it sucks), but it is justifiable (aka the landlords have some good reasons other than just "I hate the colour of their skin").

I used to work for a company assisting foreigners and checking rental contracts were part of the job.

Contracts often state clearly that only persons who are listed on it can live in it. Short term guests are usually OK and don't need to be registered.

However, if your name appears on the mail box and you live permanently but don't inform the owner, it could be a reason for him to cancel the contract within a really short time (sub-lending is usually not allowed).

If you do live there, neighbors will see you at a time or another. Even in Tokyo, Westerners still stand out. People like to gossip and if the owner is a private person, it may eventually go back to his ears.

Owners are worried about foreigners as tenants because they a) may not understand Japanese b) may not understand/follow the rules c) may disappear without paying the rent or living a mess d) may disturb neighbors. I have seen cases of owners not liking the idea of a non Westerner foreigner living in the house (plain racist, I know).

However, since the main contracting person is a Japanese, most owners should be OK. Unless they don't like the idea of roommates.

I am a foreign European woman married to a Japanese man. We never had any owner refusing us as a tenant because I was not Japanese. And this was in Saitama, where people are less used to foreigners.

We did however have problems because of our cats, but this is another story...

activeaero Wrote:Thanks for the input so far.

I'm not really that concerned about getting "kicked out" (apart from losing my part of the reikin/shikin), in terms of my ability to survive that is, as I've been planning on moving their alone with much higher rental rates.

What I'm trying to gauge is the risk to reward ratio. For example, let's say we find an awesome apartment exactly where we want. Maybe the manager doesn't care for foreigners, but also doesn't live in the building and is generally clueless about his tenants. If we ask up front and we get denied we lose out on a good apartment...an apartment we could have lived in for years without issue if we would have just neglected to mention the possibility of a foreign tenant.

Can you usually acquire the managements tenant "preference" before meeting anyone in person? If so we could simply call under a false name and check things out before approaching them officially.

Well obviously there are no guarantees with landlords and their opinions of foreigners, but from my experience so far I don't think you will have a problem. Like has been stated above most landlords are looking to avoid "the foreigner problem" of loud parties, unsorted garbage, wrecked apartment, and unpaid rent, bills, etc. And frankly I can't blame them. Their apartments are their investments and they have to protect those. With that said however landlords also WANT to rent out their apartments. With the economy like it is many landlords are looking for ways to woo people into renting. I would suspect that if he knew the apartment is going to be under your friends name, backed by his parents, and that two people were going to be paying the rent they would be happy to rent it out to you guys with no secrets.

Don't get too carried away with the stories on gaijinpot.

Jarvik7 Wrote:Many see Japan as a temporary playground, and so have no qualms about leaving the country without paying off their cellphone bills or rent, leaving the apartment a wreck, having loud parties or otherwise being loud, not sorting garbage, not understanding customary move-out etc fees, and so on. That's not even including the fact that the landlord cannot directly communicate to most foreigners due to the language barrier. It makes sense that a landlord will want to avoid working with a foreign tenant when it is so much more (potential) hassle for him/her.

I've never rented an apartment in Japan, but if you make the initial contact in fluent Japanese, shouldn't that get you a long way? I imagine it might take away a lot of their concerns about renting to foreigners.

@epsilon: you don't make contact with the landlord, the realtor service does. Unless there is an issue or they live in the building the chances are you'll never meet them.

hhannahhjp Wrote:However, since the main contracting person is a Japanese, most owners should be OK. Unless they don't like the idea of roommates.

I am a foreign European woman married to a Japanese man. We never had any owner refusing us as a tenant because I was not Japanese. And this was in Saitama, where people are less used to foreigners.

We did however have problems because of our cats, but this is another story...

Thanks for the input. I'd really like to do it the official way so this is good to hear.

I actually understand why some managers wouldn't want foreign tenants (not saying I agree with it fully, but I at least understand the reasoning) but I wonder if one's background influences their decision at all? Will a 27 year old employee of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, who can demonstrate that he is enrolled in school full time for nearly 2 years, be treated like a 20 year old on a working holiday visa?

MeNoSavvy Wrote:See for example debito's website, where his half japanese daughter was refused access to an onsen.

...

Some of you guys really look at Japan through rose-tinted lenses.

I would say that people like Debito often look at Japan through blood spattered,　sarcastic and self-righteous まわりの人からの愛情が足りない lenses. I stopped reading his site; it was one of the best things I did for myself in terms of making my life here in Japan that much more rock and roll.

I'll second Jarvik - it is not only the landlords that hate loud parties, but also neighbors one guy's English was good enough to shout "SHUT UP BITCH!" at my friend - that was funny, and one other friend had her lock injected with glue from a gluegun. My other other friend gets a rad new place, and what's the first thing he does? Has a loud party. My other other other friends think gee we've been living here for about 2 months and we haven't had a party yet - and they had a party and got the cops called by practically the whole building according to the officer.

Oh well I guess a few gaijin not sorting their rubbish and having loud parties justifies discrimination against all foreigners then. I thought that was what was called racism, but really it is just landlords wanting to avoid any cultural misunderstandings. Thanks for clearing that one up guys.

In my experience it's the majority of (young western) foreigners that are unable to be good tenants when held to the same standards as a normal Japanese tenant, not "a few".

Like coverup says, landlords want to rent out their rooms, but not when it pisses off all of the other tenants and causes them lots of trouble. They don't have a desire to avoid cultural misunderstandings per se, they have a desire to avoid problem tenants which (young western) foreigners tend to be for already stated reasons. They aren't going to give up 30-40man upfront and another 5-8man per month just for racial reasons.

Yes it's a crappy situation, but try to understand it from their position too.

Also, you need to improve your attitude menosavvy. If you disagree fine, but you don't need to act like a child.

I thought I would chime in. There are people who don't want to rent to foreigners for many reasons. I'm not saying I agree with them. You'll never know until you ask. Better to be honest and straightforward from the beginning. But chances are, if the landlord feels that way many of the other tenants do as well. If you being there is such a problem; do you really want to be there? I know what it's like not to get the place you want because of bs; but if the landlord feels that way you may be better off finding a place where you don't need to "hide".