Sorry if this isn't in the right place. It's just that the forums have A LOT of terminology I'm not familiar with yet, so it's a little confusing.

So I've decided that learning Japanese would be fun and a good use of my time, which despite being a high school Junior, I happen to have a lot of. I've looked around a little bit to see what I should do, and I bought the textbooks Genki I and II, with the workbooks. They seem to be good for starting to learn the language. Before that, however, I used Heisig's Remembering the Kana to learn hiragana and katakana, and it worked perfectly. So now, I know the kana, and I have the two Genki textbooks. Before I start actually learning grammar and vocab, there are a couple of questions I have.

1) I really like Heisig's method for the kana, so I thought it would be a good idea to use RtK Volume 1 to learn the kanji. However, I'm not sure how that would fit into my studies with the Genki textbooks. Is it possible to start learning the kanji using RtK and learning the language with a regular textbook at the same time?

2) Are the SRS and other programs really useful for just kanji? I'm not really sure what they are, but I have yet to read the quick intro on this site. How could I use that in conjunction with RtK and Genki?

3) It seems that RtK 2 isn't really praised as a good way to learn readings. What other methods or books are there that can be used to learn the readings after using RtK 1?

Thanks for all the input.

1. Most people like to focus purely on RTK1 first in order to complete it as fast as possible. Once that is accomplished you can then move on to books like Genki.

2. The SRS isn't used to learn anything. It's used to remember what you've already learned. You can use it for anything and everything. For every new Kanji you learn you simply add it to your SRS and it will make sure you remember it long term. Same thing goes for using it with Genki (or anything for that matter). For every new grammar pattern you learn in Genki you would then simply add 4-5 of the example sentences into your SRS.

3. Most people on this forum support learning the readings in the context of complete vocabulary words instead of individually. The most common methods are the Kanji Odyssey 2001 books and the Smart FM Core 2000/6000 lists.

The tried and tested route for newbies is as follows (assuming they already know kana):

1. Do RTK1
2. Do KO2001 (A book called 2001: Kanji Odyssey)
3. Read lots of native materials.

When I say "Do" I mean take all the sentences / kanji and put them into an SRS like Anki.

This is really optimized for speed, so the idea is to do it as fast as you can, so you can get to the interesting bit before you get bored.

Basically the idea is to learn all the kanji in RTK1 so that kanji won't be a problem later on. Then, learn enough grammer so that you can start reading native materials (even if it's only kids stuff) and use your SRS to learn the sentences. SRSing sentences is how most people learn the readings to the kanji.

As for using Genki in combination with RTK1, Don't worry about grammer just yet. Learn the kanji first. Put everything into learning the kanji, and don't do anything else. If you try to learn something else at the same time it will only slow you down.

To be honest, I started out using genki (before finding this site). The book goes at an incredibly slow pace, if you decide to use it, don't do the crappy excersizes (most of which are just asking you to translate, which isn't a good habit to get into) just read the grammer points and put the example sentences into your SRS. Instead of Genki, I would suggest using http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ . I found the explanations much easier to understand and it starts with teaching the more informal Japanese (The kind of Japanese you'll be likely more interested in) so you'll be able to start reading native stuff much quicker.

After doing http://www.guidetojapanese.org/ I went straight to reading native material (I tried playing through Final Fantasy 9 in Japanese). It's hard to begin with, since you know very little vocabulary. But that's easy to solve with lots of dictionary look ups =)

*PS*
RTK1 is a lot of work, but DON'T give up!

bombpersons Wrote:2. Do KO2001 (A book called Kanji Odyssey 2001)

Actually the book is called 2001.Kanji.Odyssey after 2001: A Space Odyssey. I have no idea why everybody in this forum continues to misplace the 2001.

RTK is extremely helpful. Definitely do it first. (This is the point where I admit I didn't... I did something like it, but only got to around 1350 before I got bored... It was still amazingly helpful.)

After that, it's time to learn vocab. Smart.fm, 2001KO, Anki... However you do it, learn some vocab.

After that, I just started reading manga. I bought an electronic dictionary and a lot of manga and I've been reading them, starting with the easiest ones. (Like Yotsuba&) Sometimes I look up the words, sometimes I don't.

The key through it all is not to get bogged down and start hating it. Learning Japanese is fun if you want it to be. And even though I treat it like a game and not seriously, I'm learning faster than I would in a structured class.

1 last thing: Get lots of input. Watch J-Drama, Anime, whatever. With subs for now, so you don't get bored, but eventually move to raw video without subs. More input gives your brain more to work with and always helps.

Hmm, looks like everyone is saying to do RtK first. I guess I'll do that, then move on to something like 2001 Kanji Odyssey, then move onto Genki. I looked at the textbooks, and it looks like it goes my pace. I might skip some exercises if I do find that they're repetitive. Thanks!

smartazjb0y Wrote:Hmm, looks like everyone is saying to do RtK first. I guess I'll do that, then move on to something like 2001 Kanji Odyssey, then move onto Genki. I looked at the textbooks, and it looks like it goes my pace. I might skip some exercises if I do find that they're repetitive. Thanks!

Negative. After 2001KO you will be way beyond Genki I and II.

By the way,

Quote:So I've decided that learning Japanese would be fun and a good use of my time, which due to being a high school Junior, I happen to have a lot of.

Fixed that for ya.

bflatnine Wrote:By the way,

Quote:So I've decided that learning Japanese would be fun and a good use of my time, which due to being a high school Junior, I happen to have a lot of.

Fixed that for ya.

Well, I was comparing myself to other Juniors, who never seem to have any free time .

So, according to input, I'll just start RtK 1 since that seems like the simplest thing to do. In conjunction with that, I'll use the...flashcard system on this site to review. Hopefully I'll finish soon.

Or you could download this script http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/23374, do RTK Lite (2001KO flavor), then 2001KO books 1 + 2, then. . .

Quick question: When people say 2001KO, do they mean the software or the books?

smartazjb0y Wrote:Quick question: When people say 2001KO, do they mean the software or the books?

They are identical except that the CD contains also audio files. So it does not really matter.

bombpersons Wrote:The tried and tested route for newbies is as follows (assuming they already know kana):

1. Do RTK1
2. Do KO2001 (A book called 2001: Kanji Odyssey)

Thats some BS there, buddy... "The tried and tested route", more like the opinion of the vocal few in this forum. Really vocal ones with post counts so high one has to wonder if all they do is read and post ABOUT Japanese all day.

I'd like more data before telling ANYONE such and such is the right way.

@smartazjb0y:
If you end up using anki, there are Genki I and II decks available for download. They contain many sentences and the vocab taken straight from the book. File -> Download -> Shared Deck...

If you want more japanese media, have a look at:
* d-addicts.com (also have a look at the japanese subtitles)
* freshverse.com (many japanese tv-channels)
* justin.tv (the japanese streams are sometimes tv channels)
* keyholeTV (most japanese tv channels)
* tvants (most japanese tv channels)
* livestation (a couple japanese channels)
* jpopsuki (registration required, maybe)
* youtube (country setting at the bottom to japan)
* fnn-news (video + good transcripts of news-stories)
* j-pop dot cn
* koetaba.net (全 387作品 audiobooks)
* share / perfect dark filesharing software (p2p-db.net/share/ for share nodes)
* mangahelpers.com (download manga --> jp Raws)
* List of Free Audiobooks thread (in learning resources in this forum)
* http://www.tbs.co.jp/radio/junk (comedy podcasts)
* raw-manga.kyuushi.com (note: it hast a light-novel category..)
* nyaatorrents (for raw anime with no english subtitles)

Tip: oricon is the Japanese equivalent of the billboard music charts.

hanzaisha Wrote:

bombpersons Wrote:The tried and tested route for newbies is as follows (assuming they already know kana):

1. Do RTK1
2. Do KO2001 (A book called 2001: Kanji Odyssey)

Thats some BS there, buddy... "The tried and tested route", more like the opinion of the vocal few in this forum. Really vocal ones with post counts so high one has to wonder if all they do is read and post ABOUT Japanese all day.

I'd like more data before telling ANYONE such and such is the right way.

I'm not saying people have to do it that way, it's just the most common method on the forum. People find there own methods and techniques that work for them, there's no need to follow strict rules.

*Edit* Whoops typo =/

Also, while it's recommended that you finish RTK1 before anything else, reading learning materials doesn't hurt (except in that you're not using that time on RTK1, of course) so you might want to read one while doing RTK if it becomes too dull, tiresome or you just want to actually start reading the language.

I'm kinda in the same boat except I'm a decade older, so here's how I've started to learn and how I'll continue.

1: I took a class at community college
-A lot of people here don't like taking a class. I would recommend at least taking one, depending on your experience with Japanese. If you have none or close to none, it's a good start to the language, you can make friends that are also interested in the language, and you can have a conversational partner in the professor. Plus, you get to know when you're wrong.

After your class, assess whether you still want to continue. I signed up for a second class but I feel like self-study would've achieved more. FYI, my classes used / are using Genki 1.

2: I started RTK1, I'm nearing frame 1400
-It helps a ton if you don't know Chinese characters, because then you can make sense of how it's organized and that they're not all just random pictures. Some people say "concentrate exclusively on RTK1 and don't do anything else" but I don't like that. RTK becomes very grindy. Most of the kanji I know really well from RTK are because I learned them in conjunction with Japanese. It's up to you whether you can do it concurrently with something else, or focus on it exclusively.

3: Have an academic source to constantly learn vocabulary and grammar
-Since I'm in class right now, I use Genki 1. Genki 1 sucks for vocabulary though because they reuse a lot of vocabulary in each chapter. But you should always learn vocabualry from a list, whether it's smart.fm's Core series, ripping them out of a textbook, KO2001, whatever. Same goes with grammar, use a textbook, use UBJG, use Tae Kim, whatever it is, and just get the basic idea. The question you should be asking yourself shouldn't be "How do I conjugate a verb in the past form?" but "How do I say that I did something in the past?"

4: Watch / read / listen to Japanese media
-In class, you can tell whose been exposed to more Japanese because they'll have a better accent. You need to expose yourself to the media to grasp the accent, to pick up an intuition on the language (to know when something sounds wrong, and when to use it), and to learn how real people communicate Textbook conversations are nowhere near accurate to real life as I've learned on a recent vacation to Japan.

Textbook:
Waiter - What would you like to eat?
Me - What is this on the menu?
Waiter - That is fish.
Me - I would like fish, please.

Real life:
Waiter - What would you like to order, sir?
Me - I would like tonkatsu set A please.
Waiter - Yes, we will get you tonkatsu set A, sir. Do you want a side order with that? What drink would you like? How much rice do you want to include with your meal?
Me - Ah, I'm sorry, I don't speak Japanese.

That's why it's important to always get real material.
If you can understand 60-70% of it without needing subtitles then watch it without, but if you're still struggling with basic grammar like me, then just watch it with subs.

Reading is important too. The more you read, the faster you get at it. At the very beginner level you're just struggling to read the letters, but the more you read the more you'll recognize words instead of letters and your literacy will increase.

hanzaisha Wrote:If you want more japanese media, have a look at:
* d-addicts.com (also have a look at the japanese subtitles)
* freshverse.com (many japanese tv-channels)
* justin.tv (the japanese streams are sometimes tv channels)
* keyholeTV (most japanese tv channels)[...]

Nice list, hanzaisha. I havn't seen a few of those before - thanks for the links.

kainzero Wrote:But you should always learn vocabualry from a list, whether it's smart.fm's Core series, ripping them out of a textbook, KO2001, whatever.

I disagree. I don't think you should EVER learn vocabulary from a list. Always learn it in context or you are wasting your time in my opinion. That is one thing that is horrible with Genki is that it just gives big lists of vocab and never uses them in context.

Maybe you weren't meaning rote learning and I am just interpreting what you said incorrectly.

kainzero Wrote:3: Have an academic source to constantly learn vocabulary and grammar
-Since I'm in class right now, I use Genki 1. Genki 1 sucks for vocabulary though because they reuse a lot of vocabulary in each chapter. But you should always learn vocabualry from a list, whether it's smart.fm's Core series, ripping them out of a textbook, KO2001, whatever. Same goes with grammar, use a textbook, use UBJG, use Tae Kim, whatever it is, and just get the basic idea. The question you should be asking yourself shouldn't be "How do I conjugate a verb in the past form?" but "How do I say that I did something in the past?"

I disagree with this. I think vocabulary should be learned on an ad hoc basis. You should learn the words you need. If I hear a word a lot, I make a point to learn it, if I don't hear it at all, I don't need to learn it (at least not now). The problem with the lists is that you'll end up wasting a lot of time learning unimportant vocabulary, when you could be learning important (i.e. relevant to what you're doing) vocabulary (which will give you eventually enough comprehension to get, by context, the meaning of the rest of the words).
I do agree, however, with the last point. Learn how to express what you want to express, don't learn a bunch of abstract grammatical constructs.

I disagree with the disagree-ers.. it is extremely useful to learn off a list in the beginning, before proper in-context learning is possible. I'll quote Iversen on this one:

Iversen Wrote:The assumption behind wordlists, flashcards and things like that is not that two languages are 100% connected on a word to word basis, - and you would be hard pressed to find anybody who seriously believe that. The purpose behind such systematic learning tools is to familiarize people with enough words to get through genuine texts without stumbling over unknown words all the time. The meaning that is associated with a given foreign word is for practical reasons its approximate translation into another language, which may or may not be the native language of the student. But it could also be a drawing or an explanation in the target language or a translation into a third language if there is suitable term there. The important thing that you get just enough feeling for the meaning of the word to understand it when you meet it in 'real living language', and having a dictionary translation (with examples, if necessary) as a background is much safer than believing that you know all about it just from seeing it once in context. Many things in language are idiomatic, but it doesn't imply that languages are purely idiomatic. It is still valid to note that a English horse is the same as a French cheval, even there are idiomatic expressions with both words that can't be translated directly.

My position is - and will continue to be - that languages are not purely idiomatic, and therefore it is perfectly legitimate to use tools that ultimately are based on translations. In fact, I find it strange that there are people who are unable to or refuse to use such tools. But we are clearly different, and everybody should use the methods that work for him or her. In the end we all expect to get to a situation where we use the target languages without translating mentally, - we just can't agree on how to get there.

EDIT: but have an exit strategy! list-learning is a temporary stopgap, and never forget that.

dbh2ppa Wrote:If I hear a word a lot, I make a point to learn it, if I don't hear it at all, I don't need to learn it (at least not now).

The trouble I find with this idea is that words I don't know don't stick in the mind, so I don't actually notice whether I'm encountering them frequently (unless they're very frequent, obviously). On the other hand when I do learn a word I sometimes then encounter it in three different contexts within a week; so it's not merely that I've run out of common words to learn :-) -- I just can't tell them from the rest.

I don't think you should ever learn literally off a word list, if that means just a list of contextless words (whether frequent ones or not). Any words you learn should be coming from some specific context of a dialogue, or a reading passage, or grammar point example sentences, or whatever. However, in the beginning it's perfectly fine (and essential for most people) for the words to be coming from artificial sources like textbooks rather than from authentic materials.

I think learning off something like KO is fine. People are right when they say to have an exit strategy though. For all the words i've learned through KO sometimes it feels like the real learning happens when I go read native stuff and all the pieces come together.

Ok, let me preface this with physical training concept. We can approach Japanese like an athlete can approach general physical preparedness. You have Strength, Speed, Power, Flexibility, Accuracy, Stamina, Endurance, Recovery (probably more). Imagine these are levels of 1 to 10. Everybody is at least a 1, the top 1% being a 10. Marathon runners would be a 10 on endurance, 7 on speed, but a 1 on pretty much everything else. Power lifters would be 10 on strength and 8 on power but pretty much low on everything else. Your decathlete is likely not a 10 on anything, yet being an 8 across the board puts him in Olympic standing.

Approach Japanese like a decathlete approach fitness. Be balanced at everything, not great at one thing. As you get better at everything, your level of Japanese rises without major weakness in any one area. What do we want to have to know with Japanese to be considered good at Japanese? I think Listening, Reading, Speaking, Writing make you good at Japanese. There's also Social Interaction, Culture, History, Geography that let you function in Japan. There's probably more than this such as law and politics.

Seems reasonable that one starts with simple book like Genki, you get a broad introduction to the big four in addition to the living in Japan knowledge. Thing is, it's so broad (for two books) you cannot expect to be past a 3 across the board.

For us self learners, we run into the problems of "Lists". Lists of Kanji, Lists of Grammar, Lists of Particles (Verbs, Adjectives), Lists of Vocabulary, Lists of Prefectures, Lists of Actors, Lists of Dirty words, Lists of Manga, Lists of Books, Lists of Anime, Lists of Dramas, Lists of Movies, Lists of Forums.

We have a metric shit ton of lists. Thing is, these lists are BIG (7500 words for Tanuki/KiC Vocabulary List; 2500 sentences for Grammar sentence lists; 6000 Kanji for Kanken lists; 5000 One Piece Mangas; etc). If you just attack one list and become great at that one list, you use time that could be used to be average at other lists.

Lists are a resource not to be consumed in it's entirety. Start with lists of "essential" information to get you started. These are best if organized in a way that offers quickest learning.

You have 6000+ Kanji you can learn, but RTK Lite is organized to get basic Kanji recognition across. You have 2500 grammar concepts you can learn, but Tae Kim/Genki is organized to get basic grammar concepts across. You have 50,000 vocabulary you can learn, but KO2k1 via iKnow is organized to get basic vocabulary across. In all these you can get away with less since we're talking about 'basic' information.

We want the basic to move into the real Japanese. With the real Japanese, you're sort of forced to keep your learning balanced if you approach it right. For me, I think I've done this via subs2srs (cannot pimp that program enough). I get new words, grammar, kanji at a balanced rate that applies to areas that help my reading and listening. That in turn helps my speaking. In addition, as it's drama, I get brief insight into areas of Japanese life.

Oh, did I forget to mention that if you are great at one thing, and have a career based on it, don't detract from it. That'd be stupid.

Just a quick question: I'm currently still doing RTK, I just started yesterday and I'm up to frame 25. How would I use 2001KO along with this? I took a look at the ebook, and I know what it is, but how would I use it to learn readings and etc. AFAIK, the order of the kanji are different in RTK and 2001KO.

smartazjb0y Wrote:Just a quick question: I'm currently still doing RTK, I just started yesterday and I'm up to frame 25. How would I use 2001KO along with this? I took a look at the ebook, and I know what it is, but how would I use it to learn readings and etc. AFAIK, the order of the kanji are different in RTK and 2001KO.

Do RTK first, then do 2001KO. It would be pretty difficult to do them both at the same time..