And well...At first I thought this thread was a bit amusing, when referring to all that McDonald's stuff lol - But I think you guys should be more respectful to magamo/aijin and others... they answered to help you get more familiar with the Japanese culture.. you're not going to learn anything if you can't accept that cultures are different & just because they're different, that doesn't make either of them wrong... For example, people eat dogs/cats somewhere (I forget) but I honestly don't understand that at all.. & I would NEVER try it if I went to visit. But I would also never insult them for it. I'm sure other cultures have disagreements over things we think are common in the US.

Not following a protocol isn't rude per se if there is a reason. But it's complacent to expect that you would appear as polite to foreigners as you do to your fellows in your country by following your favorite protocols.

Simply put, ありがとう isn't the same as thanks, so you should expect that saying the word ありがとう gives a different impression to people than saying thanks. If you live in Japan and still believe ありがとう should work the same way as some English word, I think it's rude. Not following the protocol is ok. But thinking it must work the same way as in your country isn't.

And there are also social/cultural problems behind this such as 郷に入れば郷に従え and 出る杭は打たれる, and they make things really complicated. A lot of Japanese who are raised in a foreign country and moved back to Japan are having trouble when they try to do things that they believe are right or natural...

IceCream Wrote:well, we also have these sayings too, like you said, "when in rome..." and, to some degree, i agree.

Perhaps a better word than "rude" is just "ignorant". If you think any word will translate exactly, it's equally as dumb. Like, if i went around asking for hot water with 水, or whatever. It's not reallllly rude, just either you don't know the difference, or you're weird to carry on using it.

Well, if you've been living in a country for an extended period of time and are still ignorant about important protocols such as thanks, then I think it's a little rude. But you may disagree.

IceCream Wrote:：）　im still not entirely sure of my standpoint on that. Personally, i can't imagine not being interested in it. But i guess someone who isnt may have their reasons.

Im trying to think of an equivalent in england. hmm, if a japanese person said "sorry" instead of "thanks" in certain situations after living here a long time, i wouldnt consider it rude. They might seem a bit unconfident though.

Or, last night we were talking about taking the last portion of something. In England, it's kind of rude to take the last portion of something shared, even if it's offered to you, unless it's been offered to everyone else first. You can take half of it, or something. But in Germany, it's ok to just take it. Would i consider it rude if a german who lived here still took it after a long time? I really don't know. Probably i wouldn't care...

Let's say, there is a country where it's a really bad thing to leave the last portion because, say, it's a waste of food. There is also a person from the country who is living in England. He is confused by the fact that Britons don't take the last portion and just throw it away. He thinks it's not good and even rude to people who prepared the dish. So he asks on the internet, "Should I take the last portion of something shared?" And another person from the same country replies, "You should take it. How can it be awkward to take the last portion? It's the right thing to eat them all, and Britons should think so too."

So, is this good advice?

It may just be me, but I see the "Britons should think so too" idea in the phrase "How can it be awkward to take the last portion?" too. It can be because Britons don't think it's a bad thing to leave the last portion. Is there any other reason for that? If someone thinks "How can it be awkward to say thanks?", then I guess they're consciously or unconsciously thinking the local people should have the same view towards the protocol in question.

As for the difference in "sorry"s between Japanese and English, there is a famous Japanese warning to people who visit America: Never say sorry when you're in trouble and you have done nothing wrong.

The Japanese say すみません, 申し訳ありません, etc. when they get in a car accident or something regardless of whether it's your fault or not. We say it because it's the right thing to say. But if you say "I am sorry" in English, it can sound like you are at fault in the accident, and it could lead to a unfavorable decision in a court.

And yeah, what's rude is different from culture to culture...

I think, if a native person would find it reasonable (even if particularly polite) to use a specific phrase during that interaction, you're free to use it. Otherwise, you're not using the language correctly. The meaning of utterances is as important as the situations in which they can be used, a misplaced phrase is a wrong phrase.
As for other kinds of rudeness, I wouldn't expect a foreigner to adjust to every single social convention, but at least the most important ones ("thanking" wouldn't be one of them, in any culture I know). However, when told that they are being rude, I'd expect a foreigner to adjust to the convention they were breaking from then on (With the same right to refuse as a native. If it's ok for a native to break the convention, it's ok for the foreigner too).

strugglebunny Wrote:I think I'll just not thank anyone for anything. It's the only way to be sure.

I think it's okay if you say an extra "thank you" in Japan if you hadn't learned about its usage yet. I'm pretty sure they would not even mind if you thanked them, they would just know it wasn't really necessary. But Never saying thank you because you're too lazy to learn the culture.. I find that rude. (not that you didn't say thank you, but the fact that you did not try at all..)

Depends on the people too. Some Japanese are obviously familiar with foreign cultures, some may want new exposure and other may enjoy a brief respite from the more rigid social expectations. It's not difficult to figure out who to bow to, shake hands with or hug and kiss, for example. (However, Kissing both cheeks when it's not expected often gets some entertaining reactions...livens up a dull event...)

I hope people don't come away from this thread overly concerned about using the wrong phrase at first. That nod/mini bow will take you a long way until you get a feel for what people might say. Besides, I doubt anyone would be judged negatively other than perhaps long-term residents with high level Japanese. Until then, expectations are pretty low (though hopefully that will change as Japan grapples with the idea (oxymoron?) of an "assimilated foreigner"). Not really different from most places I should think.

I'm not sure if this is a good example but I'm going to say it anyways. lol

US (common to say thank you) = JP (not required)
JP (always/often use suffix/prefix) = US (very rarely use prefix/suffix)

In the US it's very common for people to say thank you to clerks etc, but in Japan its not considered rude if you don't say thank you. Since people in the US are used to saying thank you so much, that seems a bit weird not to - but it doesn't make it wrong.

But as most of you already know. For prefixes and suffixes, we don't go around constantly calling our friends by ms/mr/miss lol - but in Japan it's like..ALWAYS. If you were to address someone of royalty or high class in Japan without the -sama I think many people would be offended and surprised in a bad way. And I don't think an older boy would want to be called -chan...

So even though saying/not saying "thank you" doesn't make a huge difference, I think it's still worth it to learn the culture as accurate as possible, because like my example, some people could get really offended if you don't.

And like I said before, I am not an expert!! So correct me if I'm wrong. This was just an example I thought of for the other way around.

This discussion just reminded me of this intonation/pronunciation thing. It seems the "Pardon?" or "Sorry" meaning "I missed your question" in a dialect of Chinese is exactly the same as the Japanese "Huh?" as in "Huh? What are you talking about? Are you stupid?" Since short interjections are almost impulsive and difficult to fix, a lot of Chinese people from certain areas use it in Japan, even when they're talking to their bosses, elder people, etc. That always leads to an awkward silence. It goes like:

Japanese Boss: Bla bla bla. So, what do you think of this?
Cute Chinese girl: What? Are you stupid?
Japanese Boss: ...........
Japanese guys around them: ..........
Cute Chinese girl: ?

Also, I read somewhere on the internet that non-native speakers tend to impose intonation patters of their first languages on their second languages. Actually I've met lots of non-native Japanese speakers in my life, and there is only one non-native person who learned Japanese as an adult and doesn't have an foreign accent. Everyone in the pronunciation assessment thread is also imposing another language's intonation patterns at least to some extent.

The problem is that intonations of our first languages can carry quite different senses in another language as you saw in the Chinese "Pardon?" example. I don't think it's a big deal if you're just a tourist or beginner. But if you're, say, a naturalized citizen who learned the local language after puberty, is it a social faux pas to say an inappropriate thing because of your intonation patters? Or is it acceptable because it's often said that it's almost impossible for adults to acquire a native-like accent?

IceCream Wrote:p.s. *naturalised (or naturalized) citizen

"subtitles," "grammarical," "neutralized," etc. etc. Argh!

Every time I have said ありがとう to a sales clerk in Japan, it resulted in a smile. If there was a more appropriate pleasantry to give, I would love to know it. I haven't heard a shopper in Japan say something nice to the store employee or I would have mimicked it. Perhaps not speaking to strangers is the secret into how 127 million people live in such a small area without killing each other. It just feels sad to believe that becoming cold and impersonal is the polite way to adapt to a culture.

magamo Wrote:This discussion just reminded me of this intonation/pronunciation thing. It seems the "Pardon?" or "Sorry" meaning "I missed your question" in a dialect of Chinese is exactly the same as the Japanese "Huh?" as in "Huh? What are you talking about? Are you stupid?" Since short interjections are almost impulsive and difficult to fix, a lot of Chinese people from certain areas use it in Japan, even when they're talking to their bosses, elder people, etc. That always leads to an awkward silence. It goes like:

Japanese Boss: Bla bla bla. So, what do you think of this?
Cute Chinese girl: What? Are you stupid?
Japanese Boss: ...........
Japanese guys around them: ..........
Cute Chinese girl: ?

For future reference, what is this word/interjection in Japanese?

EDIT: And what dialect?

Meanwhile the many hours I spent digging up my precious quote have gone to waste.

Are you seeking credit, liosama? gratitude?

Thora Wrote:Are you seeking credit, liosama? gratitude?

hahahahhahah
That was the irony of my post I guess But how can one not love Marcus Aurelius? sigh!

I think this one would work for the lot of us;

II/IV

Think of your many years of procrastination; how the gods have repeatedly granted you further periods of grace, of which you have taken no advantage. It is time now to realise the nature of the universe to which you belong, and of that controlling Power whose offspring you are; and to understand that your time has a limit set to it/. Use it, then, to advance your enlightenment; or it will be gone, and never in your power again.

I am off my brethren to embark on my journey to savant hood~

Nii87 Wrote:

magamo Wrote:This discussion just reminded me of this intonation/pronunciation thing. It seems the "Pardon?" or "Sorry" meaning "I missed your question" in a dialect of Chinese is exactly the same as the Japanese "Huh?" as in "Huh? What are you talking about? Are you stupid?" Since short interjections are almost impulsive and difficult to fix, a lot of Chinese people from certain areas use it in Japan, even when they're talking to their bosses, elder people, etc. That always leads to an awkward silence. It goes like:

Japanese Boss: Bla bla bla. So, what do you think of this?
Cute Chinese girl: What? Are you stupid?
Japanese Boss: ...........
Japanese guys around them: ..........
Cute Chinese girl: ?

For future reference, what is this word/interjection in Japanese?

EDIT: And what dialect?

It's a version of はぁ？ with a particular intonation pattern. It sounds はぁ？ + ふぁ？ to
Japanese ears. It seems the Chinese version is regional, and a certain group of Mandarin speakers use it frequently. I don't speak Chinese, so I'm not sure where it is used. But no Cantonese speakers I know use it, thought they speak very good English so this might be the reason they don't say it that way. I know two guys from Taiwan, and they didn't use it either. Also, not all Mandarin speakers say it. I'm not sure if it's due to variations of Mandarin Chinese or other reasons.

I've heard it before. Came across as pretty rude in English too.

I can't say it's too common among the Chinese people I know. What stands out the most is that they tend to pronounce ですよ and でしょう exactly the same. That can also end up sounding rude in some contexts.

Ex: I was at a fast-food place last week and the lady at the register was Chinese. I asked if it was possible to make a substitution in a set item, and she replied "いいでしょう", which makes it sound like "of course it's possible, wtf do you even need to ask for?"

Chinese natives also have trouble with voiced vs. unvoiced consonants (you hear a lot of ありがどう and they have trouble with か vs. が at the end of sentences).

IceCream Wrote:Thermal: thanks ：） i'l try those. What about your friends and people like that, what's the usual start to a conversation if you know someone well?

If you haven't seen them for a while (relative on how often you normally see them), the the number one way is 久しぶり！

Others

さいきんどう？ ~ How have things been? (not that common, though foreigners are prone to use it)
元気にしてた？ ~ You've been well?

Another common way is to thank/praise them for whatever happened last time you met.

この前、誘ってくれてありがとうね。すごい楽しかった！
この前、ケンが作った料理はうまかったね。

Is there a comment in this thread that talks about the katakana loanwords for 'thank you', etc? What's the status on those, re: how they stick out, what kind of feel they have, when they're appropriate. I'm thinking of サンキュー, specifically, but I'm sure there's others, right?

Mostly a nichy trendy thing I think. I don't believe they've entered into any sort of regular lexicon, but I could be wrong.

Although depending on your company (I'd stick with casual), age and general chutzpah, you could probably rock it as a foreigner.

But that may or may not be in line with your purposes if the intent is to be 'as native' as possible.

ninetimes Wrote:Mostly a nichy trendy thing I think. I don't believe they've entered into any sort of regular lexicon, but I could be wrong.

Although depending on your company (I'd stick with casual), age and general chutzpah, you could probably rock it as a foreigner.

But that may or may not be in line with your purposes if the intent is to be 'as native' as possible.

That's what I was thinking--it's probably more flexible than native forms of 'thanks', but at the same time has a folksy, self-conscious feel to it that's best left for only occasional informal uses. メルシー！

yudantaiteki Wrote:Chinese natives also have trouble with voiced vs. unvoiced consonants (you hear a lot of ありがどう and they have trouble with か vs. が at the end of sentences).

My japanese teacher is taiwanese and she always, always does that