Aijin Wrote:Oh well. I mean, I do try to understand the American view, but it's hard for me to agree just depends on how we were socialized in our cultures *shrug*

It's not the "American" point of view, there are a lot of western countries who have this culture, and also surprisingly in China, I have seen this done quite regularly in restaurants and stores, which I didn't expect really.

Aijin Wrote:Well, I don't know whether it's necessarily better for the worker to be thanked. One of my part time jobs here used to be as a waitress, and I never really cared personally when people said 'thank you'. Hearing it constantly day after day really made it meaningless for me through sheer repetition I suppose...

I have often wondered if いらっしゃいませ becomes background noise to Japanese people.

Yeah, it is kinda' background noise.

I say "thanks" automatically mostly because it's just been ingrained in my head since childhood, but now that I think about it, I can realize how this could sound odd or even irritating to someone who's used to thanking people only in more specific situations. That's because a similar thing is happening to me with standing ovations. It seems like every lecture, play, or school band concert these days ends with a standing ovation (or, more accurately, several people stand and then everyone else has to decide whether they should also stand or keep sitting awkwardly). This kind of annoys me because I think it cheapens the gesture and makes it less meaningful in situations that really warrant it. I suppose it's the same principle on a different scale.

It becoming clear to me that ありがとう/ありがとうございます　does not mean the same thing as Thank you. They are used in many similar situations but the meaning is different. I have heard ありがとう literally means "it's hard to exist [because I am filled with so much sense of duty/義理　due to your actions]" where as thank you, to me, seems to mean "I appreciate your kindness and grace" and the word thank comes from an old Germanic word meaning "thought, gratitute" (thanks Online Etymology Dictionary!). So the difference in meaning seems to explain their differing uses, ありがとう being more appropriate for situations like when a superior or friend goes out the way for your sake. While thank you seems to be more for any perceived kindness regardless of who it is doing it.

Personally, I say thank you to store clerks and other people in the service industry not only because it's polite and that's how I was taught but it also makes the interaction more enjoyable for me. Like other people have said it makes things seem less robotic. While saying an insincere and routine thank you may lose its meaning and even become annoying, I believe that a sincere or at least a cheerful thank you will never wear out its meaning.

BTW, someone mentioned　謝謝　or shieh-shieh (sp?) or thank you in chinese and those of us who have gone through RtK will recognize the keyworld as appreciation, I tend to wonder if the actual Chinese translation is closer to the English word and also that's why Chinese tend to use thank you like Americans.

For those that want to thanks store clerk, I recommend saying どうも. It is quite light and the most culturally appropriate (please someone correct me if I am wrong). However, you probably shouldn't say it to someone who is too much older you.

Another consideration, is that many of the store clerks will feel uncomfortable if you thank them. It's kind of like letting someone by in a crowd and they stop and say "OMG thankyou so much!!!". Nice sentiment, but too much.

There is a similar issue with お元気ですか. Sure it's a nice sentiment, but if you use it like we use 'How are you?' in English, you are going to make a lot of people uncomfortable.

Unfortunately niceties in one language aren't always nice in another. Imagine being introduced to someone new at their work and they say "Please look after me" or "Let's work together in a way that is mutually beneficial" No matter much they explain that it is a very nice sentiment and one that helps people work together easily, used as it is used in Japanese, it is completely incompatible with English speaking countries culture.

You can bend the rules of a culture, but you can never completely circumvent them.

This is a really interesting discussion. Now that I think about it whenever I get my fast food handed to me I always say thanks. Why? Well I guess 50% is "ah finally, my meal" and the other 50% is [Formality so that I can leave *follows protocol*].

So In regards to that I think in the west its half gratitude and half social protocol. I mean... It's just what you do. You'll notice if someone is rather dissatisfied with the service they won't say thank you so I think there is definitely an element of appreciation in the words as well as it being social protocol. So maybe its more like "I'm pleased you have done an acceptable job and not inconvenienced me". It can also be said sarcastically I think in a situation where you do get bad service but you're really saying "thanks for nothing, jackass".

Now the one that I really hate is when you go to the super market checkout and they alwaysss ask you "Hi, how are you?" and it's just so robotic and you know they don't give a #### to the point it's almost offensive and it's like ugh just skip it already.

Aijin Wrote:I understand that point of view, but to most Japanese people things like that aren't worth acknowledgment because the person doing the service isn't doing it out of the kindness of their heart. They're not being inconvenienced nor acting with the intent of giving happiness/benefiting others; they're in it for the money, and giving you the food is simply a requirement of their job description. So to a Japanese person it isn't worth a 'thank you'.

My observations in the western US from being on both sides of the counter, is that many people do not offer their thanks. But many do, and I see it as a sign of courtesy and respect. My personal view is that it's not about being overly grateful for an exchange of commerce, it's about acknowledging a human being. I want to do that when I'm out in the world, and it it is at the core of my character to treat people in all walks of life with what I see as simple courtesy. Part of it is the spirit behind the words. An automatic "thank you" is different then saying it with positive intent, genuine respect, and empathy, just as receiving service that goes above the least required level differs from someone who's uncaring and does the minimum.

From what I have limitedly observed, "Japanese Society" does not share this value or operate this way (meaning treating all people of diverse status with courtesy and respect) but I don't think it is pervasive in "Western" conduct either. Perhaps universally people have hierarchal systems of conduct, all filtered though their individual and cultural world views, and will treat people accordingly.

For me it boils down to "the golden rule" which is "treat others as you would like to be treated." I've always liked that simple code of conduct, and from that I will treat people good, even if they don't always return it (or outwardly "deserve" it). Does anyone know where it comes from (culturally)? Is there a equivalent in Japanese?

And I understand the point of view you raise as well, it is completely valid, and of sound logic.

Aijin Wrote:When I moved to California I thought it was kinda' weird that I always heard people thank shop clerks, waiters at restaurants, etc. My friends would say "thank you" everytime someone refilled their water, for example, and it kinda' irked me. I understand that it's a simple kindness in America to do things like that, but in Japan most people have a different state of mind: the customer is the one who benefits the clerk and company by their purchases, so the clerk/company should be the one thanking YOU, not the other way around.

I believe trades in America are looked at as win-win situations. Both parties say thank you to each other, not as "general kindness" like you said, but because both parties benefit. Of course the people providing you a service benefit, and they do say thank you. As a customer, you also benefit, so you say thank you as well.

Do Japanese people think they're doing some kind of sacrificial service to the economy when they patronize businesses?

Aijin Wrote:I understand that point of view, but to most Japanese people things like that aren't worth acknowledgment because the person doing the service isn't doing it out of the kindness of their heart. They're not being inconvenienced nor acting with the intent of giving happiness/benefiting others; they're in it for the money, and giving you the food is simply a requirement of their job description. So to a Japanese person it isn't worth a 'thank you'.

If I understand what you mean, "kindness of their heart" means complete self-sacrifice. Is that correct? If that's the case, why would Japanese people believe that service people should say thank you to customers? Customers do not go to restaurants or buy clothes out of self-sacrifice.

Are you seriously asking that question Dixon? The customer has the choice to go to a different store/restaurant, or not buy anything at all. The clerk is thanking them for choosing that store and buying stuff.

On the other hand, the clerk cannot choose to serve different customers or serve no one at all.

I'm with Aijin on this one. She just explained what I was trying to say at the beginning but in much better words =P

IceCream Wrote:

thermal Wrote:There is a similar issue with お元気ですか. Sure it's a nice sentiment, but if you use it like we use 'How are you?' in English, you are going to make a lot of people uncomfortable.

Pretty much all my conversations in english start with hey, how are you / hows it goin /
What's the normal conversation opener in japanese then?

いい天気だね～

エル　オ　エル

thermal Wrote:Unfortunately niceties in one language aren't always nice in another. Imagine being introduced to someone new at their work and they say "Please look after me" or "Let's work together in a way that is mutually beneficial" No matter much they explain that it is a very nice sentiment and one that helps people work together easily, used as it is used in Japanese, it is completely incompatible with English speaking countries culture.

Indeed, this is a really interesting conversation.

I'd like to add my two cents, as I am neither American nor Japanese.
I am from France and I experimented what thermal wrote when visiting and living in many countries, not just the ones is Asia.
But as I read the following, I just wanted to add something :

Yonosa Wrote:It's not the "American" point of view, there are a lot of western countries who have this culture, and also surprisingly in China, I have seen this done quite regularly in restaurants and stores, which I didn't expect really.

I've been working in Beijing for a while and many of my co-workers there told me that we Westerners (yes, we're Westerners for an eastern eye) are really too polite. I then had a (quite) long conversation about this with some folks there.
It tended to prove the point of Aijin, and I think that it is a feature that can be found in major big cities all around the world, not just Japan and Beijing.
As a matter of fact, as I worked in Paris, I've been told that I had to be from anywhere else in France, as I was way too polite to be from the capital.

So my point of view is that there is a trend (that has been going on for a long while now) in which saying "thanks" tends to be so commonly used in major cities that it becomes meaningless. And I really belive it has to do with the city life. As you said, smaller towns everywhere around the globe have a warmer touch and when there, people tend to be much more polite.

It's not my point to criticize the habits of each country, but as I watch U.S. shows, or movies I also find that the "thank you" process is far less used compared to what I am used to. And to some here, it is already too much ! So I guess it would be a nightmare to shop in France for some Japanese RTKers

It might also be interesting to compare this aspect of Japanese life with a country where the concept of tipping is very rare, like in France and many european countries (as it is included in the price of the product/service you buy) just to be sure the thanking process is not really tied to the tip expected.

Finally, I agree with: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
So I tried to recognize the right occasions when to thank Beijing clerks and waiters, so as to feel the habits more than just being a witness.
But I always find nice to be thanked when you're working. Indeed, even if you're paid for that, it doesn't cost anything to smile or say something nice.
And it has always made my (work)day when being told "thanks". But I guess there again, it is the way my education and culture made me, nothing else and I gladly accept other manners !


I'd like to thank, first, you, for reading this quite long post that shows this thread is interesting and that there are things that can be said about it, and everyone who wrote in this thread and shed some light on those Japanese expressions.

*sigh*

"Thank you" isn't the same as ありがとう. And ありがとう isn't "Thank you" either. They're similar but different. As I already said in my previous post, "thanks" covers a lot of Japanese senses. When do people learn that word-for-word translations won't work? Your faithful translation is only faithful to your favorite dictionary and textbook, not to the heart and soul of the target language.

You might say "Thank you" when a waiter refills water in your country. In Japan, you do a light 会釈 (えしゃく). It's a body language version of "Thank you" in this sense. You can say どうも with a slight 会釈. Usually the Japanese express "Thanks" in this どうも-like sense with a non-verbal communication. It's ok if you don't understand or respect this culture, but please don't think we treat clerks and waiters as robots. We do thank them, but in a different way.

And please don't judge protocols in another culture by standards in your own culture. Sometimes things that should be verbalized in one culture shouldn't in another culture.

What if I said to you "Please take care of things" when we meet because that's what I am supposed to say in Japanese? What if I said to you "I recognize you are tired" when you log off this forum? These are stupid direct translations of よろしく！ and おつかれ〜. Saying ありがとう when you're not supposed to in Japan is as bizarre as these incomprehensible sentences. Don't you think it's stupid to argue that Westerners don't care what you have done because they only say good bye when someone leaves a room and not "I recognize you are tired"? They're nice to friends, of course. But they just don't verbalize it in the same way.

It's good to say thanks even when it's unnecessary in Japan. But it works because most Japanese respect other cultures and don't force you to behave like us unless you're causing trouble. But if you judge our culture by your standards and/or expect us to follow your culture, it's a different story.

To be honest, if you've been living in a foreign country for an extended period of time and say "Thanks" because that's the way you thank in your country, I do think you're ignorant or insulting the other culture to some extent. It's especially so if you picked ありがとう because it's the translation in your pocket E-J dictionary or Babelfish said so.

If you act like you do in your country when you're in a foreign country and expect you appear polite because you're being polite the way in your country, people might think you're either ignorant or arrogant, or both if you've been living in the country for a long time.

magamo Wrote:*sigh*

"Thank you" isn't the same as ありがとう. And ありがとう isn't "Thank you" either. They're similar but different. As I already said in my previous post, "thanks" covers a lot of Japanese senses. When do people learn that word-for-word translations won't work? Your faithful translation is only faithful to your favorite dictionary and textbook, not to the heart and soul of the target language.

You might say "Thank you" when a waiter refills water in your country. In Japan, you do a light 会釈 (えしゃく). It's a body language version of "Thank you" in this sense. You can say どうも with a slight 会釈. Usually the Japanese express "Thanks" in this どうも-like sense with a non-verbal communication. It's ok if you don't understand or respect this culture, but please don't think we treat clerks and waiters as robots. We do thank them, but in a different way.

And please don't judge protocols in another culture by standards in your own culture. Sometimes things that should be verbalized in one culture shouldn't in another culture.

What if I said to you "Please take care of things" when we meet because that's what I am supposed to say in Japanese? What if I said to you "I recognize you are tired" when you log off this forum? These are stupid direct translations of よろしく！ and おつかれ〜. Saying ありがとう when you're not supposed to in Japan is as bizarre as these incomprehensible sentences. Don't you think it's stupid to argue that Westerners don't care what you have done because they only say good bye when someone leaves a room and not "I recognize you are tired"? They're nice to friends, of course. But they just don't verbalize it in the same way.

It's good to say thanks even when it's unnecessary in Japan. But it works because most Japanese respect other cultures and don't force you to behave like us unless you're causing trouble. But if you judge our culture by your standards and/or expect us to follow your culture, it's a different story.

To be honest, if you say "Thanks" when you are in a foreign culture because that's the way you thank in your country, I do think you're ignorant or insulting the other culture to some extent. It's especially so if you picked ありがとう because it's the translation in your pocket E-J dictionary or Babelfish said so.

If you act like you do in your country when you're in a foreign country and expect you appear polite because you're being polite the way in your country, you are both ignorant and arrogant.

I agree to an extent about your last point but think it's a little harsh. I'd say yes it applies to foreigners living there long term or for an extended period of time but not to tourists and such. Also really interesting input

mezbup Wrote:I agree to an extent about your last point but think it's a little harsh. I'd say yes it applies to foreigners living there long term or for an extended period of time but not to tourists and such. Also really interesting input

Ah, I was taking about people who lived/are living in Japan because the topic is, I think, "How do I grasp when to say thanks? I lived in Tokyo but failed!" And if someone replies to it by saying "Say thanks like I do in my country. You can be politer that way." I'd say it's an ignorant and arrogant comment because it sounds like humans should take things the same way as in his/her country regardless of culture. Now you quoted my whole post, it's kind of useless to edit it, but whatever.

I think people here are missing the point between different connotations of the word "Thanks". As Magamo said in Japan you have a nod or something for a light thanks,
in the west our thanks is just "thanks", but when we say a thankyou and mean it it is usually the same word "Thanks" or "Thankyou" but this time you feel someones sincerity in the thanks. If you describe everything in terms of words written down then you get a dead language, have alook at how the actual word is being said Komorebi.

You have those whingy girls which go on saying "PWEESE PWEEZE" "Aww FANKYOU~ OMG I WUV YOU FANKS SO MUCH FOR DAT" do they mean it? I don't know I prefer to not hang around bitches like that but where was I;

In Arab culture our forms of thankyous extend on for hours. You have one mum thanking another mum by saying "Yislamu Idayaki" Which is like God bless your hands/your hard work, then the reply would be "Tislamu" which is sort of like 'peace to you too" then they go on wishing peace on their children and blessings on your children and go on and on all while CNN continue portray Arabs as a bomb loving (un)civilization. Those words are probably the most used words in the Arabic language. Another example is "Insha Allah" or, God Willing is a phrase so commonly used that it barely means anything these days according to my dad. People use it for anything "You going to the park today?" "If my car gets fixed insha allah" ofcourse im sure they don't give a damn what god thinks about their car and it is true religious people tend to use it more often, but non religious people use it as well to the extent that it just means "I hope so".

Also as you said you hear country people say things like that more often than city goers but it still doesn't mean city goers are 'less polite' they just don't have the time for it, it's simply different, different context time place allows for different language usage it's that simple.

Thankyou's don't have to be words, there are many ways one can show gratification. But I personally feel there is no need for it. (most of the time anyway) So here I will finish my post by a quote by my beloved Marcus Aurelius,

(Meditations book V, Passage VI)
There is a type of person who, if he renders you a service, has no hesitation in claiming the credit for it. Another, though not prepared to go so far as that, will nevertheless secretly regard you as in his debt and be fully conscious of what he has done. But there is also the man who, one might almost say, has no consciousness at all of what he has done, like the vine which produces a cluster of grapes and then having yielded its rightful fruit, looks for no more thanks than a horse that has run his race, a hound that has tracked his quarry, or a bee that has hived her honey. Like them, the man who has done one good action does not cry it aloud, but passes straight on to a second, as the vine passes on to the bearing of another summer's grapes.
'According to you, then, we should rank ourselves with things that act unconsciously?'Exactly; yet we should do so consciously; for as the saying goes, 'awareness that his actions are social is the mark of a social being'. 'But also, surely, the wish that society itself should be equally aware of it?' True, no doubt; yet you miss the meaning of the aphorism, and so put yourself in the same class as the persons I have just described, who likewise are misled by a specious kind of reasoning. Apprehend the true significance of the saying, and you need never fear that it will betray you into omitting any social duty.

Sigh, life is beautiful~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IceCream Wrote:

thermal Wrote:There is a similar issue with お元気ですか. Sure it's a nice sentiment, but if you use it like we use 'How are you?' in English, you are going to make a lot of people uncomfortable.

Pretty much all my conversations in english start with hey, how are you / hows it goin /
What's the normal conversation opener in japanese then?

The most common way is to make some observation about the person you want to talk to　（漫画好きなんですか）, make some random comment (暑いんですね！) or you can ask some question (よく来られます？)(passive form is very commonly used in this situation just to make it politer, of course you can always choose to be chill if you want and use casual speech. Foreigners tend to be to prudish with casual speech IMO )

Magamo, I agree 100%.

I think you can say thanks even when a Japanese person wouldn't, but just watch the person to see the reaction and learn how to thank people and stay within bounds that people can appreciate, rather than just treating Japanese people as if they are foreigners and expecting them to be grateful.

Wow I didn't expect to get this many answers. Thanks a lot.

Oh another thing I always wondered about. Let's say you live in a big guest house (over 50 rooms), where you walk past the other Japanese tenants every day. Or your apartment building etc. In America we would say a definite ''hello'' or ''hey'', even though it doesn't mean much as we are passing by.

In Japan how does this work?

Dang I feel really stupid for living there for almost a year and not thinking of this before.

In terms of apartments etc, as a general rule people don't talk to their neighbors. If you live in the countryside then you should greet you neighbors when you move in and over them a small present, usually something they can use as a household good. Depending on the place, you may become close to those who live around you.

Anyway, you can speak to strangers if you want Japanese people do do it, just less then westerners. Just pick the timing and the person. IE not an exhausted salary man on a packed and sweaty train.

I still remember the short time I was in a small town in Japan. I had moved into this house. The previous teacher whoo had the house was some crazy girl. I guess she made a bad impression on the neighbors. When I tried to introduce myself to one of my neighbors he basically told me to **** off in Japanese.

The guy scared me. I never spoke to him again.

magamo Wrote:It's good to say thanks even when it's unnecessary in Japan. But it works because most Japanese respect other cultures and don't force you to behave like us unless you're causing trouble. But if you judge our culture by your standards and/or expect us to follow your culture, it's a different story.

To be honest, if you've been living in a foreign country for an extended period of time and say "Thanks" because that's the way you thank in your country, I do think you're ignorant or insulting the other culture to some extent. It's especially so if you picked ありがとう because it's the translation in your pocket E-J dictionary or Babelfish said so.

If you act like you do in your country when you're in a foreign country and expect you appear polite because you're being polite the way in your country, people might think you're either ignorant or arrogant, or both if you've been living in the country for a long time.

So how are outsiders supposed to learn this, when you can't even properly explain it, even when we're here for a while?

I think I'll just not thank anyone for anything. It's the only way to be sure.

strugglebunny Wrote:

magamo Wrote:It's good to say thanks even when it's unnecessary in Japan. But it works because most Japanese respect other cultures and don't force you to behave like us unless you're causing trouble. But if you judge our culture by your standards and/or expect us to follow your culture, it's a different story.

To be honest, if you've been living in a foreign country for an extended period of time and say "Thanks" because that's the way you thank in your country, I do think you're ignorant or insulting the other culture to some extent. It's especially so if you picked ありがとう because it's the translation in your pocket E-J dictionary or Babelfish said so.

If you act like you do in your country when you're in a foreign country and expect you appear polite because you're being polite the way in your country, people might think you're either ignorant or arrogant, or both if you've been living in the country for a long time.

So how are outsiders supposed to learn this, when you can't even properly explain it, even when we're here for a while?

I think I'll just not thank anyone for anything. It's the only way to be sure.

I don't know what you're getting at by "when you can't even properly explain it," but are you saying you can explain greetings/niceties/whatever in your culture to foreigners in their mother tongue? I'm sorry, but Aijin and I aren't that talented. I guess your friends in Japan aren't culture-teaching geniuses either.

So, what do you think you can do when you post your very first post on a new forum? You don't know its culture/protocols/jargon, and you don't want to sound like a total stranger who doesn't know how they're supposed to behave. Don't you think it might be good to lurk for a while? If the forum is kind of famous and there are rumors, blog posts, etc. about it, don't you think it could be a good idea to read them to see what it's like?

No one expects you to behave like locals from day one. But if you don't observe how people behave or try to understand their protocols, local people may not think you respect them, I think. I just don't think it's a good thing to expect they understand protocols of your culture.

Observe how people behave. Read more if there is material about its culture. Maybe watching some movies and stuff can help understand it too. I guess there are lots of nice things you can do to learn a new culture other than these, and I'm curious to know also.

Dixon Wrote:

Aijin Wrote:I understand that point of view, but to most Japanese people things like that aren't worth acknowledgment because the person doing the service isn't doing it out of the kindness of their heart. They're not being inconvenienced nor acting with the intent of giving happiness/benefiting others; they're in it for the money, and giving you the food is simply a requirement of their job description. So to a Japanese person it isn't worth a 'thank you'.

If I understand what you mean, "kindness of their heart" means complete self-sacrifice. Is that correct? If that's the case, why would Japanese people believe that service people should say thank you to customers? Customers do not go to restaurants or buy clothes out of self-sacrifice.

I don't think "complete self-sacrifice" is a good word for it...

By saying "kindness of the heart" She meant that deep down, their reason is not to make you happy. People work and get jobs because everyone NEEDS money. If someone is going to do something out of the kindness of their heart (something not required) they would volunteer...and not get paid, because they want to help people. I would think that Japan that would deserve a "thank you" as with any other culture? So self-sacrifice would be more related to volunteering.

And as for 'why Japanese people should thank the customer' - Because by working for the business, they want to support it, so they would thank the customer for buying their products because that keeps the business running.
No Customers -> No Income -> No Jobs -> No money for the Employee -> Sad/Broke lol

I hope that makes sense..I am Japanese-American but I only lived in Japan while I was very young, so I'm not an expert like Aijin lol - I still understand both points of view though, just by being open-minded. But I guess the main point is that not saying 'thank you' isn't rude, it's just unnecessary.

This is the first time I've learned about this, but if you really think about it... saving 'thank you' to someone that really deserves it is..hmm..admirable? I don't know how to explain, but in the US.. when people say it out of habit, it really is meaningless...which I've never really noticed until now. In Japan it would actually mean something.