Do you make an effort to try to memorize new words (meaning and reading) in sentences, or do you sort of just keep repeating them 'til they stick? I'm trying to memorize and I'm finding Tae Kim quite mentally taxing to go through, and I'm not sure if repetition will do the trick...

Even better, if you are using audio, shadow them. It'll more than stick like that.

I don't make an effort to try to memorize them. I review the words individually before I find some sentences, then I stick the sentences in my deck. Each word gets 3-5 short, simple sentences that I make sure I understand. Then I put the sentence meaning + word definitions + any other notes on the back.

Then it's just a matter of reading the sentences when Anki tells me to, and deciding whether first I understand exactly what the readings are for any kanji, and what the whole sentence means, and if I pass that, then second, can I read it quickly? If it's yes/yes, then it's a 3. If I fail the first one, it's a fail. If I get it but read it slow, it's a 2. 4s are for the things I don't even have to think about. Failing kanji reading are fails, too.

I don't rely on Anki solely, either. I also read, watch TV, listen to podcasts, etc. outside of reviewing, and when stuff I'm just learning shows up, surprise, I remember it better. Anki just makes sure I see it every now and then if it doesn't show up in my usual media.

^ Ah, very helpful. Thanks rich_f. When you know a word well enough, do you just go online to a dictionary and rikai/type it out or is it more automated? (I know rikai can add the sentence the word is in, but it doesn't get that sentence's translation, does it?) EDIT: Or do you use Epwing2Anki?

Also, just to clarify - when your just doing vocab (not sentences), you just keep repeating until you know them?

I don't memorize sentences, and find drilling sentences way too slow (and a bit boring, frankly). I maintain a "standard" vocab deck with the word on one side and reading/English meaning (and, increasingly, Japanese dictionary definition) on the other. I have a field for Sample Sentences as well. All of my vocab is driven by reading from various sources (manga, Web sites, native lang entries on Lang-8, subs2srs imports), so I have at least one sample sentence for each word, sometimes more, and sometimes (in the case of subs2srs and podcast imports) audio.

This lets me go through my deck quickly in most cases, since it's a standard vocab deck. However, I can also slow down and focus on the sentences if I'm having trouble with a word. Anki 2's Filtered Decks feature makes it easy to review these cards in detail, as there's a preset for today's forgotten cards (今日の忘れたカードを復習する). I use this feature to study the sentences associated with a card, and to refresh myself on any forgotten kanji using Henshall.

I also wasn't engaged by the Tae Kim deck (marvelous though it is), and found it too taxing. Don't worry about it. Just find a method that's both challenging and enjoyable. It took me about a month to land on my current deck format, and I'm still tweaking it (adding/modifying fields, deleting old entries w/o associated sentences, etc.).

-J-

Generally, I pick short sentences I can zoom through pretty quickly. For me, having a context and speed of review are the most important things.

I use both Dictscrape and Epwing2Anki, depending. E2A is super fast, but the dictionaries Dictscrape uses sometimes have easier sentences. You should check both out if you can.

You can leave the selecting of sentences up to the program in E2A, or do it yourself. Dictscrape is strictly do-it-yourself. Whether you have a program select sentences or you do it yourself, you're going to have to review the incoming sentences for usability. (Are they full of too much new vocab/difficult grammar, too long, etc.?)

They're both excellent tools that will only get better.

There's also YomiChan, if you're up for taking sentences out of Japanese books, but it's a different process.

Dictscrape is still in alpha, but if you have a linux box handy, or an old computer that can run linux, it's a relatively easy install. You need to follow the instructions pretty carefully so it works, but you can scrape the sentences, then export the deck and edit it in a spreadsheet, and import it into your usual deck in Anki.

But as -J- says, don't worry about it if you don't like Tae Kim, or doing sentences at all for that matter. Find another way that works for you. There are an infinite number of roads that will get you from here to there. The one that works best is the one you feel like staying on.

rich_f Wrote:But as -J- says, don't worry about it if you don't like Tae Kim, or doing sentences at all for that matter. Find another way that works for you. There are an infinite number of roads that will get you from here to there. The one that works best is the one you feel like staying on.

This.

FWIW, I've found another good source for short, easy to understand sentences is Lang-8. I track Japanese whose posts are marked "With Native Lang", and I save the post to EverNote using the EverNote Web Clipper. From there, I manually import words and sentences into my Anki deck. It takes some time, but it's been highly beneficial for me. Many of the native Japanese speakers who are learning English tend to keep the thoughts they express in English simple (just like I keep my Japanese simple . As a result, their Japanese translation is also fairly straightforward.

Even if you don't do sentences, this is a great way to get fresh, daily reading material.

-Jay-

Yeah, unless your native language is Norwegian... then 90% of journals is made of Eastern Europeans or middle eastern users...

I was surprised by the fact that there were Japanese people interested in learning Norwegian though.
(Of course, correcting someone talking about going to a「塾」was kind of difficult though, as this concept isn't widely known in Norway. googling "puggeskole" (literal translation of cram school) gave results referring to the Japanese cram schools.)

somstuff Wrote:Do you make an effort to try to memorize new words (meaning and reading) in sentences, or do you sort of just keep repeating them 'til they stick? I'm trying to memorize and I'm finding Tae Kim quite mentally taxing to go through, and I'm not sure if repetition will do the trick...

I would say remember words and phrases with the usages as they are learned. The best way is to practice at your own pace, with importance on trying to understand the material.

Memorizing does not work for me. I have to just do the work, and review material later. Reviewing may only be trying to remember what I did during the previous study session.

Okay, I have a followup question: how exactly do you guys learn and repeat learning vocab? Obviously, as a beginner, I don't know a lot the readings already, though I am up to about 1500 kanji. Some things I'm interested in:

If you do it in Anki, do you just keep failing the new cards 'til you get them correct?
Do you use 10-min fail default that Anki has?
Do you do same-day increasing intervals (5 sec, 25 sec, 2 min...etc.)?
Do you focus on meaning first, or reading first, or both at same time?
Do you separate "learning" decks?
Do you learn outside of Anki?
WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK ABOUT IF YOU ARE SIMPLY REPEATING? I can go through a card tons of times and have it still not register, especially if I don't know the kanji.

somstuff Wrote:Okay, I have a followup question: how exactly do you guys learn and repeat learning vocab? Obviously, as a beginner, I don't know a lot the readings already, though I am up to about 1500 kanji. Some things I'm interested in:

① If you do it in Anki, do you just keep failing the new cards 'til you get them correct?
② Do you use 10-min fail default that Anki has?
③ Do you do same-day increasing intervals (5 sec, 25 sec, 2 min...etc.)?
④ Do you focus on meaning first, or reading first, or both at same time?
⑤ Do you separate "learning" decks?
⑥ Do you learn outside of Anki?
⑦ WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK ABOUT IF YOU ARE SIMPLY REPEATING? I can go through a card tons of times and have it still not register, especially if I don't know the kanji.

As far as readings go, you never ever learn them in a bunch, unless you are doing RTK2. For instance 明日も猛暑日の予報になっていますから注意が必要です。 あす・あした, doesn't matter, you will pick the readings up anyway.

① When I was working with KO2001, and I didn't get words learned at that day, it was a 1. Some words I had to fail several times, which shouldn't matter so much, as you get to see the words ever so often during the lifetime of any given deck. With the Core Deck I followed a different strategy. Since it is a pre-made deck, I "learned" them, by looking at the word, hit OK, read the sentence, and picked out the English meaning. So at first see I passed them all, and in case I didn't know what it means after having seen them a second time, insta-fail.

②｜③ Depending on the deck, I had different spacing intervals. For KO, for instance, I choose to go with 0.0333 (1), 0.0555 (2), 1.0 (3), which equals roughly 1 hour, 19 hours, and a day. For Core I went with the standard spacing, did work quite well.

④ One word can have several meanings, so it was always kanji, reading or reading, kanji and then meaning.

⑤ I never did that.

⑥ Mainly, except for the Core deck. Learning happens outside Anki, reviewing inside.

⑦ Repeating in the sense of exposure with short intervals? Yes, this might work, as long as you at least try to remember what you are reviewing. An all at once approach is hardly working, so it is best to always search and keep looking on the web, to get exposure, and again in Anki. The goal is to learn words, of course, but not to memorize everything perfectly. I mean you can very well learn 7000 words in a short amount of time, but only through exposure you will eventually get the real meaning, not a translation - mind you.

I think magamo once said, and I cite "I only learn a small handful of words per day, instead mass amounts, carefully examining their meaning, how they are used, when they are used, and so on". So, basically, everyone has different strategies, and the one way fits all doesn't exist. What is important is to learn to differentiate, and to lower the barrier between say English meanings and Japanese readings, and the respective true meanings of words, while you still have to translate. Once you know more readings, and eventually translation as a general guideline and not 指向 = b = c = d　in English so it means the same in Japanese, meaning in context is important. With or without translation, which will eventually fall away, once you don't need it no more.

I guess what I try to say here is simply, learn a word, if you find it interesting look it up via google, and use Rikaisama to read whatever you find if you need it. That way you get the best out of two worlds, as it is not necessarily so, that what you are going to see in an example sentence will help you to memorize words. Sometimes you have to see certain words in several different contexts, without worrying or thinking too much about readings, until it *clicks*. So, choose whatever approach works best for you, as long as it helps your progress everything goes.