Hi everyone!
I really want to make an effort to be able use a monolingual dictionary. I´ll be finished with KO2001 by the end of the week, so I do have a basic vocab, but I really struggle using a monodic though. I would love a monolingual dictionary aimed for Japanese kids / the foreign learner. I found a link on the AJATT-site that lead me to a dictionary aimed for kids, with "dumbed-down" definitions and furigana and all that jazz, it would´ve been perfect, BUT! it wasn´t electronic. I just down see myself working with a paper-dictionary ever again... It´s just really slow!
Do you guys know if I can find an electronic dictionary (online/software/wordtank/etc) aimed for Japanese kids/the foreign learner?
If there´s no such thing (I truly hope there is), then what J-J dictionary has the most "dumbed-dowm/simple" definitions of words? What´s the best start-up J-J dictionary?
I got floored when I tried the AJATT-way of "getting used to a monodic", by entering words you know. I entered 犬 and got a wall full of text explaining absolutely everything about a dog.

Thank you so much for your time!
Sincerely,
Zorlee

Do you have the link or information on that non electronic monolingual dictionary for kids? I don't mind using a physical dictionary if it is dumbed down for kids.

How long did it take you to finish kanji odyssey?

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...dictionary

This is the book I was talking about. It would´ve been absolutely perfect if it was electronic. I´m really considering buying it anyway, but I was hoping for the electronic equivalent.

About KO2001 - I´ve been at it since mid-August I think. I´ve been doing 100-sentences-a-day since the 15th of September though, when I got in a groove. I´ll (hopefully) finish it on thursday/friday. It´s a really good learning resource!

how were you able to do 100 sentences a day for 2 weeks? that had to be a lot of reviews. I have been doing 20 a day for the last 2 weeks and i have an average of about 40 review sentences a day. 100 a day you have like 200 review sentences a day right?

do you make the cards yourself?

I would say, just go for the real thing I use the main Japanese dictionary in my Canon Wordtank G55 (スーパー大辞林) and it's fine. Just start with easy words. Like Khatzumoto says, look up words you already know. Just remember, sometimes seemingly "simple" words are the hardest... so, just experiment for a while.

The first purpose of the monolingual dictionary, I think, is to learn how to describe things in Japanese (though there are many other benefits... such as thinking in Japanese/getting the *real* definition of a Japanese word). I have a book called 13 Secrets to Japanese fluency, and one of the best chapters is on how to describe words you don't know. For example, if you're trying to think of "liar" in japanese, but can't remember it, you need to know how to at least say "本当ではないことを言う人". Or for "parking lot" you should learn how to say "車をとめる場所". This is one of the main goals, I think, of monolingual dictionary usage. It teaches you very well how to describe things in Japanese, which is an invaluable skill that will make your "japanese muscles" grow exponentially with every definition you can look up, understand, and later on duplicate (when you've forgotten a word).

Just my two cents... I wouldn't wait for a kids dictionary. If you finished KO2001, you should be fine. Just dip your foot in.

Yahoo 辞書 is fine. There are 2 different monolingual dictionaries available and most of the time if one definition is too hard for me the other will help.

That said, I'm not a big fan of the "monolingual" concept so I'm using the monolingual dictionaries only when I think I'm not getting the essence of a word from the bilingual dictionaries or when I don't have an example sentence. But most of the time I think bilingual dictionaries are much more efficient.

Codexus Wrote:But most of the time I think bilingual dictionaries are much more efficient.

Seriously? How's that? I've always thought they just perpetuated the problem of wanting to directly translate everything.

sethg Wrote:

Codexus Wrote:But most of the time I think bilingual dictionaries are much more efficient.

Seriously? How's that? I've always thought they just perpetuated the problem of wanting to directly translate everything.

I don't believe that's a problem. In my opinion, you "translate" things you're not very familiar with, but as you gain more experience that just naturally disappears.

Codexus Wrote:That said, I'm not a big fan of the "monolingual" concept so I'm using the monolingual dictionaries only when I think I'm not getting the essence of a word from the bilingual dictionaries or when I don't have an example sentence. But most of the time I think bilingual dictionaries are much more efficient.

I agree with you; that's more or less how I use dictionaries when I absolutely must. It depends on exactly what you're looking up and which dictionaries you are using, but in some cases I don't feel like the monolingual dictionary really adds anything to the J->E meaning, and in some cases it introduces unnecessary complication. Try looking up names of animals in a J-J dictionary, for instance. I just looked up オットセイ in the online Daijirin and got アシカ科の哺乳類。雄は体長2.2メートル、体重200キログラムに達するが、雌は1.3メートルほど。前後肢はひれ状で、泳ぐのに適する。耳介はごく小さい。全身ビロード状の黒褐色の毛で覆われ、下毛は淡い赤褐色の綿毛で、毛皮が珍重される。繁殖期には、雄は多くの雌を従え、ハレムをつくる。太平洋北部に産し、冬は日本にも回遊する。ウネウ。〔「膃肭臍」とも書く。「膃肭(おつとつ)」はアイヌ語オンネプの音訳。陰茎を臍(ほぞ)と称して薬用としたことから〕 -- I don't know about you, but "(fur) seal[動]" is much more useful and efficient to me than the J-J's paragraph, although I have to admit that I do like "雄は多くの雌を従え、ハレムをつくる".

The J->E dictionary I usually use is the 3rd edition GENIUS on my electronic dictionary, and I often find that more helpful than the Koujien. However, this dictionary is a J->E made for native Japanese speakers, so it has a lot of Japanese example sentences and phrases that allow you to zero in on the meaning you're looking for if you can read the Japanese.

For instance, looking up 達する from the above definition (just arbitrarily), I don't find that the Koujien's definition is necessarily more helpful than the GENIUS'. The relevant entry in the Koujien reads ある場所・位・程度に至る。及ぶ。とどく。「目的地にー・する」「人口が一千万にー・する」「合意にー・する」 This is a fine definition and the second example phrase there is exactly the context that you need to match with the way the word is used in the above defition. However, the relevant section of the GENIUS entry for 達する has "reach" with the example sentence 寄付はすでに500万円に達している("The donations have already reached five million yen"). To me there's no obviously superior understanding to be gained from the J-J entry.

I guess to me it seems like there's a danger in relying too much on J-J dictionaries when you're still in the beginner/intermediate learning phase. If you don't have a really good handle on the grammar of the definitions you're reading, it would seem easy to get misled or misunderstand the definition, and it can raise more questions than it answers. For instance, how does 達する differ from 及ぶ or とどく, since both are apparently given as possible meanings for 達する? If you look up 及ぶ, 達する is one of the definitions. Of course you can just keep looking things up but at some point you want to get back to what you're reading, right?

It may also depend on the purpose of consulting the dictionary. Typically when I look something up I want to get the meaning as soon as possible so I can get back to reading.

EDIT: Let me clarify one point -- I'm not saying that learners should avoid J-J dictionaries or that they're unnecessary. I'm just not sure I agree with the idea that learners should always try to use J-J as much as possible, as soon as possible.

Antimoon recommends E-E dictionaries intended for advanced learners (rather than native speakers), which are good, but I don't know of any J-J learners' dictionaries.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I guess to me it seems like there's a danger in relying too much on J-J dictionaries when you're still in the beginner/intermediate learning phase. If you don't have a really good handle on the grammar of the definitions you're reading, it would seem easy to get misled or misunderstand the definition, and it can raise more questions than it answers. For instance, how does 達する differ from 及ぶ or とどく, since both are apparently given as possible meanings for 達する? If you look up 及ぶ, 達する is one of the definitions. Of course you can just keep looking things up but at some point you want to get back to what you're reading, right?

I think this is only a problem if you're using a J-J dictionary exclusively. If you're looking up words you discovered "out in the wild", you're gonna get context from the sentence, so you won't get confused about the difference between 達する, 及ぶ or とどく.

The fur seal example makes sense if you're in a hurry, sure. But if your goal is japanese fluency and not just scrape-by ability, I don't see any reason you'd want to hang onto the J-E dictionary. Don't you *want* to know how to describe various animals? What happens when you forget オットセイ? You can't just say えと。。なんだっけ。。。なんという。。。あの。。。英語で「Fur seal」だよ.

I dunno. I guess if you don't want to be convinced you won't, but for me, fluency is a goal. Complete comprehension. I don't just want to get by and understand most of things. I want to understand anything put before me in Japanese. Instead of bringing English into the picture, why not try google image searching オットセイ before you look it up in the dictionary. It may seem like more effort, but that's because... well, it is. And that effort, that purposeful avoidance of English is going to really imprint オットセイ in your mind and English will never have to be part of the process.

Codexus Wrote:but as you gain more experience that just naturally disappears.

Wouldn't you considering reading a Japanese definition as "experience"?

But again, it's all up to personal preference I guess.

sethg Wrote:Wouldn't you considering reading a Japanese definition as "experience"?

Sure. But I'd rather save time by using a bilingual dictionary, learn more new words and read manga and novels instead of the dictionary. But maybe that's just me...

Codexus Wrote:Sure. But I'd rather save time by using a bilingual dictionary, learn more new words and read manga and novels instead of the dictionary. But maybe that's just me...

Hey, like I said, I guess it's up to personal preference. If it really works for you, go for it. The main thing is living in the language and enjoying it, anyway.

sethg Wrote:I think this is only a problem if you're using a J-J dictionary exclusively. If you're looking up words you discovered "out in the wild", you're gonna get context from the sentence, so you won't get confused about the difference between 達する, 及ぶ or とどく.

OK, I can buy that, but wouldn't that apply to J->E too? If you're getting context from the sentence then you're going to be able to combine the English word with the context you're seeing in the Japanese sentence to arrive at a better understanding of what it means. Or at least that's my experience.

Quote:Don't you *want* to know how to describe various animals? What happens when you forget オットセイ? You can't just say えと。。なんだっけ。。。なんという。。。あの。。。英語で「Fur seal」だよ.

I'm not sure how much the information in that definition helps you describe a seal in the case where you've forgotten a word; it's too specific. You're not going to say ええと、あの前後肢はひれ状で、泳ぐのに適する動物。なんて言ったっけ。 More likely you want something a lot simpler and more related to life experience, like ほら、あの動物園で輪くぐるヤツ。水から跳ぶ。

Quote:I dunno. I guess if you don't want to be convinced you won't, but for me, fluency is a goal. Complete comprehension. I don't just want to get by and understand most of things. I want to understand anything put before me in Japanese.

I'm not saying this is a bad goal, I'm just not convinced that avoiding J->E dictionaries is all that helpful. My main goals (in reading Japanese) at the moment are to read books and articles related to my dissertation research, and to play Japanese RPGs. I've used J->E dictionaries very often in my studies and I still use them (I also use J-J sometimes), and I don't personally feel like that's ever harmed my ability to recall a word or learn to read.