Hi everyone!
I need some help from you guys. I´ve been working my way through KO2001, and will hopefully be finished next week, if everything goes according to my schedule. I really like how my vocab and kanji knowledge has improved while working with these books. On the other hand I feel a bit lost on what to do next.
I have some really weak spots in my Japanese:

- My grammar knowledge/understanding is nonexistent. (Ok, maybe a bit exaggerated there, but it´s not good at all!) =)
- If there´s lots of kanji, I can usually get a gist of things / understand the sentence, but when I read native media (manga/magazines/videogames/etc.), it´s obviously more "loose" with lots of kana, and probably a lot of idioms/slang/whatnot. I just don´t stand a chance against, for example, manga at the moment.
- I haven´t started using a monodic yet. I know I should, but I just don´t know how. I´ve tried, and it didn´t go very well. Should I just force my way through? Or what?

All in all - I don´t feel ready for real sentence-mining, even though that´s what I truly want after I´m finished with KO2001.
I wanted, and still do, to start mining dramas and video-games. My problem is that I don´t know how to fully grasp a sentence´s meaning, even with a dictionary.
It´s either some grammar I don´t understand, a word I don´t know how to look up, a kanji with several readings or some weird slang/whateveritis that messes things up. I don´t want to enter something into my SRS that I don´t fully comprehend. Do you guys have any tips on how to start mining sentences from native media?

One last thing - Can you guys recommend me one (or several) books on grammar? I know about Tae Kim, but the problem for me with that guide was the sentences. They were really bad, in my opinion. I would really like a thorough book, preferably written in understandable Japanese, that goes from the very basics of grammar to JLPT 2 + with GOOD example sentences. The more the merrier! A book that repeats patters throughout the book is great - 2-3 sentences per grammar point would be ideal.
Also, what monolingual dictionary is best for a beginner like me?

Thank you guys so much for your time! =)
I really appreciate it!

Sincerely,
Zorlee

You went thru both KO's with out know grammar? Wild! I would say hit the grammar hard next and you should see an improvement in understand of manga, tv, etc.

I'm 2 weeks away from finishing KO2 and I figure my grammar to be at 2 kyu or higher, and I don't seem to feel a lack of understand that you are saying you have...

Zorlee Wrote:One last thing - Can you guys recommend me one (or several) books on grammar? I know about Tae Kim, but the problem for me with that guide was the sentences. They were really bad, in my opinion. I would really like a thorough book, preferably written in understandable Japanese, that goes from the very basics of grammar to JLPT 2 + with GOOD example sentences. The more the merrier! A book that repeats patters throughout the book is great - 2-3 sentences per grammar point would be ideal.

It sounds like you're looking for a book like 完全マスター or UNICOM, they have books at JLPT ２級 and １級 level for vocabulary, grammar, kanji, reading comprehension and listening comprehension (UNICOM only).

You can order the books on Amazon.co.jp, the grammar books by both publishers are very informative, and have at least 2-3 example sentences per grammar item. Just what you're looking for. Also, the sentences aren't boring, in my opinion.

For a good, free dictionary, I like the one at yahoo.co.jp

jasdev Wrote:It sounds like you're looking for a book like 完全マスター or UNICOM, they have books at JLPT ２級 and １級 level for vocabulary, grammar, kanji, reading comprehension and listening comprehension (UNICOM only).

This sounds like a pretty horrible idea to me. I can't imagine using the 完全マスター or UNICOM books from beginners level grammar to JLPT 2. If you're having trouble understanding manga or video games you need more of an introductory text, not JLPT preparation. I'm not a fan of Genki, but even that sounds way better than those.

The book I used and love for an introduction to grammar is kind of out of the question for your situation. How about trying the Japanese in Mangaland series? I haven't tried them myself, but I hear they're pretty good. Whatever textbook you choose, the vocabularly is going to be way below your level, but the grammar will be useful.

After you get a good understanding of the basics (enough to do basic production) you could get off of textbooks if you choose. Something like どんあ時どう使う日本語 or the Dictionary of Beginners Japanese Grammar. A great book that's not a textbook is "Making Sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin. You can't mine sentences from it since the examples are in romaji. But, actually, there are very few examples sentences (maybe 50 or 60 in the whole book) and the book is just great at explaining things that learners very often have trouble with (just look at the Amazon reviews--this book is seriously good, not to mention inexpensive). It assumes you already have an intermediate knowledge of grammar.

Also, for slang, just force yourself to read a ton of manga. It comes pretty quick when you get used to it. I started with Doraemon and worked my way up.

I have this book at home:

A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Sentence Patterns (Kodansha Dictionary) (Paperback) by Naoko Chino (Author)

It's got some sample sentences, does the grammar and sentence structure, etc. You can see a few sample pages on Amazon.

It's mostly in English, though, and might be more basic than what you're looking for.

Thank you guys so much!

zazen666: Hehe! Well, call it wild, call it stupid, I don´t know. I knew the VERY basics of grammar, and thought what the f***, I want to do this. I haven´t really struggled with KO2001´s sentences, because the sentences are really... ehm, clean? I don´t know, it´s probably very text-book-ish sentences, but I´m able to understand them. I´ve just run into a few sentences that I´ve struggled with, because I really don´t rely on the english translation. Man, the translations are often decent, but sometimes they exclude important words and mess up the whole meaning of the sentence, jeeez...

Tzadeck: I´ve actually been thinking about getting through a normal text-book of some sort, so I´ll definitely consider Japanese in Mangaland. Like you said, the vocab will probably be well below my level, but if I could find a book that focused really much on grammar, that would be perfect.

I guess grammar is my main issue then, so I´ll hit that as soon as I´m done with KO2001. Please recommend more books concerning grammar. I would really like one big book or a series of books that goes up from the very basics to advanced grammar. I like working with one author/publisher.

If you look hard enough all of those said Dict of Grammar, are available online...not through legitimate(LEGAL) sources, but you know...It's the information age, and they're out there.

The problem with textbooks is that they're dull. The problem with reference books is that they don't necessarily have a good progressive structure. So why not grab a cheap textbook and use it as a framework to plunder a few good reference books?

Japanese for Everyone is a solid textbook (albeit a little dull and a bit out of date) that offers a good framework for learning the grammar you can follow. Japanese for Everyone can usually be found for pretty cheap. Then just grab a few reference books like A Dicitonary of Basic Japanese Grammar, and Understanding Basic Japanese Grammar, and use those to plunder for examples. So when the textbook has a chapter on ~てはいけません, you can look it up in your books, and use those for examples.

Another reference book I really like is by 3A, 短期集中初級日本語文法総まとめポイント２０ (something like that: I put the ISBN number down below.) It covers intro Japanese grammar in the form of fill in the blank and multiple choice quizzes, with answers in the back. Great for testing what you *really* know. ISBN:978-4-88319-328-8

Explanations are in Japanese, with some English, but that's also useful in a way, because you can start learning Japanese explanations for monolingual textbooks.

I also recommend the どんな時 books. They have some good stuff in there, too.

If you're a true masochist, 3A has a book in Japanese (no English) about introductory Japanese grammar. it's called 初級日本語文法と教え方のポイント. I don't have my copy handy, but it's an interesting way to look at the basics. It's basically a bunch of extended discussions about grammar points that Japanese language learners (us) constantly screw up, and how to get them right. But you need to know Japanese to understand it.

Yeah...

For a starter paper monondic, I like the Benesse チャレンジ小学国語辞典, but if you want to go electronic, yeah, there's no problem with going full speed.

Zorlee Wrote:...Can you guys recommend me one (or several) books on grammar?

I am going through みんなの日本語 currently and am quite happy with the sentences and grammar. It comes with an optional English grammar guide as the text is entirely in Japanese. I have been mining sentences from volume 1 and up to 900 sentences currently (though about 40% of my sentences are from core 2k on iknow which have audio). Have you looked at the iknow core 2k series? I plan on doing KO after the みんなの日本語 series, which should provide all the basic grammar needed for moving onto low-intermediate material.

I too am not ready for real-world mining and have issues with manga. However, I feel that it will come with time. Good luck!

Tae Kim's Guide is free and does the job, it shouldn't take long as you've done KO, go through it quickly and then mine sentences.

There's nothing fancy about the sentences in TK's, but they have the grammar being explained in them, and have piled grammar too.

If you won't change your mind, then "try" A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and check the sentences there, the grammar is well explained. You can study the entries by Tae Kim's order.

Good luck.