I have a question for those using the self-immersion technique (as made popular by AJATT), especially for those who are natively bilingual. I was raised in an English and French household, now living in a completely Anglophone community. Sometimes I feel that by trying to reject all non-Japanese media, I'm also neglecting my French heritage, that I already have trouble keeping up here. Now that I write it out, it does seem a bit silly...but what do you think?

Well if you say you have 'trouble' keeping up with your French then I don't you if it really counts as being natively bilingual, you don't lose or need to keep up with your native language(s) if you're truly natively bilingual. I was abroad for 3 years and when I came back I was asked (although jokingly) if I'd still remember my native language(s), duh, ofcourse I do

And rejecting all non-Japanese media and doing the self-immersion technique only is within the compounds of your home, if you step out the door you're back in your Anglo society.

Musashi Wrote:Well if you say you have 'trouble' keeping up with your French then I don't you if it really counts as being natively bilingual, you don't lose or need to keep up with your native language(s) if you're truly natively bilingual.

That's not true. Is it? I've known people who were raised in foreign countries as kids and then came to America and forgot most of their native language.

kazelee Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:Well if you say you have 'trouble' keeping up with your French then I don't you if it really counts as being natively bilingual, you don't lose or need to keep up with your native language(s) if you're truly natively bilingual.

That's not true. Is it? I've known people who were raised in foreign countries as kids and then came to America and forgot most of their native language.

Well I think delenir-san is not a 'kid' anymore (right), but I'm saying that you don't forget it like real easily, ofcourse it also depends on the person and what age they stopped using their native language.

Musashi Wrote:you don't lose or need to keep up with your native language(s) if you're truly natively bilingual.

Yes you do. Just because you managed to remember it for 3 years doesn't mean everyone does.

delenir Wrote:I have a question for those using the self-immersion technique (as made popular by AJATT), especially for those who are natively bilingual. I was raised in an English and French household, now living in a completely Anglophone community. Sometimes I feel that by trying to reject all non-Japanese media, I'm also neglecting my French heritage, that I already have trouble keeping up here. Now that I write it out, it does seem a bit silly...but what do you think?

If you want to be poly-lingual, rather than just bi-lingual, you're going to need to set aside time for -all- your languages. It sounds like English is forced on you every day anyhow, so you can ignore that one. Keep up your French by reading or watching something every week. If you start to feel it slip away, read and watch more each week.

Spend the rest of your time on Japanese.

wccrawford Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:you don't lose or need to keep up with your native language(s) if you're truly natively bilingual.

Yes you do. Just because you managed to remember it for 3 years doesn't mean everyone does.

I already said, you don't forget it THAT easily and that it depends on the age one stopped using their native tongue. For example an 8 year old french kid that just moved to the US would likely forget a big part of its French by the time he'd reach adulthood if he stopped using it. But the same person having lived all its life in France up to 25 and then moved to the US would 'hold' that French much much longer even if it's not used much. And if you have family and friends using that language (considering you'd keep in touch with them), then you would retain it an even longer time. And how many of us can really truly do AJATT all the time? It would mean you'd also have to cut yourself off from the outside world. Once you step out of your doorstep you're back in the non AJATT world anyways.

Bleh... I hadn't meant to post in any more forums until this year's JLPT is done and over... but I was looking on google for an anki deck, and guess where it sent me.

I think I understand what you mean by neglecting French, as I once used to have native fluency in Korean. I sort do, technically, but I have trouble talking about specific fields. I could talk about mugs and vases, but I wouldn't know the word for "kiln", "wheel thrown" or "ceramics." Or I could talk about doctors and nurses, but I would be unable to tell you what kind of doctor to go to for what.

I think what you should do is devote equal, or maybe 2/3 Japanese, 1/3 french, time for both languages, and treat them both like a foreign language. Korean is the first language I learned, but I treat it like a foreign language (I have no Korean friends where I live, and there is no Korean-language media.)

Just like my Japanese study ritual, I also read at least one news article in Korean, and watch at least one show in Korean. Since it's all in Korean (easier) I can breeze through it, but this way I'm constantly refreshing my existing language, and (hopefully) using that as a building block to improve my Korean more so that I can be closer to the language ability of my Korean counterparts.

Since English is my most convenient language right now, for me anything that isn't in English is, I think, beneficial to my language development.

wccrawford Wrote:

delenir Wrote:I have a question for those using the self-immersion technique (as made popular by AJATT), especially for those who are natively bilingual. I was raised in an English and French household, now living in a completely Anglophone community. Sometimes I feel that by trying to reject all non-Japanese media, I'm also neglecting my French heritage, that I already have trouble keeping up here. Now that I write it out, it does seem a bit silly...but what do you think?

If you want to be poly-lingual, rather than just bi-lingual, you're going to need to set aside time for -all- your languages. It sounds like English is forced on you every day anyhow, so you can ignore that one. Keep up your French by reading or watching something every week. If you start to feel it slip away, read and watch more each week.

Spend the rest of your time on Japanese.

If thats the case then I have to wonder how people who are completely fluent in 5 languages keep up? Different language every day?

jacf29 Wrote:If thats the case then I have to wonder how people who are completely fluent in 5 languages keep up? Different language every day?

Don't tell them I said that, but those people actually don't exist

I think the AJATT website mentioned something about "laddering languages". Maybe you could use French to learn Japanese.

My mother was natively bilingual (French and Haitian-Creole) and she moved to America and started learning English when she was almost 30 years old. Even though she had grown up into adulthood with her 2 native languages, after some years, she began to lose her French.

shihoro Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:

jacf29 Wrote:If thats the case then I have to wonder how people who are completely fluent in 5 languages keep up? Different language every day?

Don't tell them I said that, but those people actually don't exist

They do. I know a few but they are rare. All are in the diplomatic service and one works in Brussels for the E.C. (do they do any work there?). Also, apart from Russian, all the languages are romance European which helps. They are also bloody insufferable about there abilities!

I know they do, was just poking fun. Actually a lot of Europeans are multi-lingual except (sorry to say) British people (in comparison I mean) and in my case, Japanese is my 5th (if you'd separate Mandarin and Cantonese), though Im far from being fluent in Japanese, I have all the intentions and working my ass off (I try to) to get there. But the good thing is your ability to grasp other languages 'quicker' improves the more languages you know.

crayonmaster Wrote:I think the AJATT website mentioned something about "laddering languages". Maybe you could use French to learn Japanese.

"laddering languages" <--- like that term, but definitely, I use Chinese (duh) to 'ladder' Japanese

@musashi

For some reason, that avatar makes every post you make seem as if you are shouting.

jacf29 Wrote:If thats the case then I have to wonder how people who are completely fluent in 5 languages keep up? Different language every day?

I separate my languages by spaces, not time. Kitchen: Spanish only. Car: Portuguese only. Study: Japanese only. Everywhere else: My choice.

kazelee Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:Well if you say you have 'trouble' keeping up with your French then I don't you if it really counts as being natively bilingual, you don't lose or need to keep up with your native language(s) if you're truly natively bilingual.

That's not true. Is it? I've known people who were raised in foreign countries as kids and then came to America and forgot most of their native language.

My situation exactly, I'm from Brazil and came to America at 9, and I can speak almost nothing in Portuguese now.

Right. You can lose or need to keep up with your native language if you're truly natively monolingual, never mind bilingual (though it generally requires you to become bilingual at some point so you can stop using your first language). There's a fair bit of research about this, with apparently some very recent interest in the area.

If I had a spare lifetime to sacrifice it might be interesting to see if I could lose all of my languages by restricting all of my thoughts and input/output to mathematical notation.

~J

Wow guys, thanks for all your responses. Very insightful! And yes I think it does have to do more with setting aside the culture than the language. I'm slightly rusty when it comes to speaking (since I can't use it much in this area) but I understand just fine when I come across it. It's probably just because I'm now removed from the Francophone culture (geographically anyways) and feel like I'm turning my back on it to a certain extent by not trying to keep it in my life now that I'm separated from it. I do like the idea of having a French day now and then though.

Yonosa Wrote:

kazelee Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:Well if you say you have 'trouble' keeping up with your French then I don't you if it really counts as being natively bilingual, you don't lose or need to keep up with your native language(s) if you're truly natively bilingual.

That's not true. Is it? I've known people who were raised in foreign countries as kids and then came to America and forgot most of their native language.

My situation exactly, I'm from Brazil and came to America at 9, and I can speak almost nothing in Portuguese now.

Just out of curiosity, how's your comprehension of spoken Portuguese?

Musashi Wrote:Well if you say you have 'trouble' keeping up with your French then I don't you if it really counts as being natively bilingual

I think the question was more about heritage and culture than language, but people that are Bilingual do forget their native language. Someone I know who is 50+ moved over to England from Germany in his 30's and he tells me that he could hardly say a word in German nowadays, yet I would certainly class him as a native German speaker. (Since he was born in Germany and spoke nothing but German until he was mid 30's)

Musashi Wrote:you don't lose or need to keep up with your native language(s) if you're truly natively bilingual.

So you are saying that people who learn two languages at a young age don't need to practice both languages to be proficient at both? Just because you are a native in a language it doesn't mean the rules of SRS don't apply to you. If you don't keep using a language even your own native language you will forget it eventually.

Musashi Wrote:I was abroad for 3 years and when I came back I was asked (although jokingly) if I'd still remember my native language(s), duh, ofcourse I do

Just because you happen to have lived abroad for 3 years and you didn't forget your native language you can't generalize this to everyone. The OP didn't leave a time period, maybe he/she has been living in an English speaking community for decades. Conversely maybe everyone can't remember languages after 3 years of little/no use like you can? Making statements of the form 'Well it didn't happen to me after x time, so it won't happen to you.' don't really hold any ground when you consider that everyone is different.

People who forget even their native tongue in another country seem to be some sort of proof, that SRS doesn't work for long intervals.

I dont think we can necessarily talk about SRS failure... they just were not reviewing anything, period. exposure was minimal or non-existent for a long period of time. But maybe I am just misunderstanding the question?