magamo Wrote:Sorry if I offended you. I was a little annoyed when I read a strange post and saw some people buy that.

Why do English TV shows have no subtitles? Wrote:It's because English is a language poor in characters (they only have 20 odd letters) and rich in random spellings that half the time they don't even know what the hell they're writing. The no-subtitle policy makes sense, but even still, a sad condition it be.

Either that or they just don't like reading.^^

I heard a theory that it was to dumb down shows and encourage them to watch TV, much like the no-kanji policy in many books for little kids.

WTF! That's so absurd it's hilarious. Laugh stupid! ^^

Actually the part about dumbing down shows might be true, though.

oops, that was a joke too :head slap:

Of course it is, stupid me.

magamo Wrote:First off, we can orally communicate without any problems. We don't use pens and papers when talking to others. We can enjoy radio without subs. Please don't spread the ridiculous myth that the Japanese language is so absurd and has so many homophones it needs subs to understand. Thank you.

The subs on variety/comedy shows are one of techniques to make shows funnier, more interesting and so on. They're there for special effects. If I remember correctly, this became popular about 10 years ago, and some people didn't like it. Some even argued the quality of comedians' jokes was deteriorating because of the subs.

As for subtitles in news programs, why don't English TV news programs have them? I don't see any reason not to. The purpose of news programs is to disseminate information, and subtitles help people with hearing impairments and are useful to everyone, especially when you watch news in a noisy place. You can follow what's going on without audio. It also reduces possible ambiguity and shows spellings of proper nouns that are not always easy to guess. It's not always possible to turn on closed captions.

I wonder why some English speakers ask that question. I thought they'd ask why English news programs don't have subtitles. Seriously, why don't they have this simple and useful thing? Is there anything negative about it?

To a westerner the amount of subtitles in Japanese TV is a curiosity, and I guess its normal that it goes the other way too.

There's no particular disadvantage to subtitles that I can see. It would just be kind of superfluous to a majority of viewers. Closed captions are usually there for those who need them. If someone is speaking with a fairly standard accent there is not much room for a native to misunderstand. And if you miss something, that's what TiVo is for

To me it's not out of the question that the language / writing system in Japan is one factor why things like use of subtitles are different in Japan compared to the west. There are other things that differ such as many (most?) people in Japan own a denshi jisho, and in the west they don't. Also the reason "Naninani otona yomikata toreeningu masutaa" books, DS games, etc. are huge in Japan, but you don't see "Learn your ABCs for Adults" in the West.

In Australia we have closed captions for people with hearing difficulties. And the captions are uniform fonts and colours, not crazy ones. I don't want or need captions, I can hear everything fine, if I can't I'll turn it up. If there was text on the screen which added information, and was not just a transcription of what was really being said, then that would be useful. I don't need captions in movies or when speaking either. It is an idiotic idea.

I know some English as a second language speakers who use closed captions when watching the tv, for study purposes.

Thanks for the answers, that was very informative! Of course, subtitles are a great help for me, and will be even more when I am going to start with RTK2 in a few months. I used closed captions when I started watching English TV about ten years ago. At that time, I just finished German high school, but my ability to understand native speakers was not developed at all.

English does not have that many homophones, but a lot of words sound too similiar for the untrained listener to keep them apart. Watching British and US television with CCs vastly improved my English, and I hope it will work the same way with Japanese readings one day.

The reason for my original question was that subtitles are not used at all in German TV (except for some rare cases where they are provided as an option of the hearing impaired): Everything, including foreign TV series gets a German dub. Even when there is an interview with an English or American person, no subtitles are used, and the interview is dubbed (sometimes in real time). This is why the concept was very strange to me

There's a great example of something similar in American television that may help some folks to relate. In the 1970's animated Batman, during fight scenes rather than a simple sound effect, the animators would actually splash words like BIFF! POW! BAM! on the screen. It was a technique for adding both humor and impact to the action. The stylized subtitles you see in many Japanese TV shows are intended to have a very similar effect. It's best not to think of these as traditional subtitles, and indeed even in Japanese it might be a little strange to call them 字幕. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't テロップ better describe these?

All new TVs sold in the US for the past 10 years or so have been required by law to support closed captioning. These are subtitles for people with hearing disabilities, and all broadcasts include it as a small data stream that comes in alongside the show. You'll have to consult your manual to figure out how to view it, but I promise it's there.

Protip: If you can type around 120wpm with a very low error rate, you can make an insane amount of money as a real-time closed-captioner, typing out the subs on the fly as news broadcasts happen.

Digihotaru Wrote:Protip: If you can type around 120wpm with a very low error rate, you can make an insane amount of money as a real-time closed-captioner, typing out the subs on the fly as news broadcasts happen.

Oh man, this is totally the job for me.

Tzadeck Wrote:

Digihotaru Wrote:Protip: If you can type around 120wpm with a very low error rate, you can make an insane amount of money as a real-time closed-captioner, typing out the subs on the fly as news broadcasts happen.

Oh man, this is totally the job for me.

You'll have to relearn how to type though, because they don't use keyboards. They use a chorder. You'll also need excellent Japanese ability to understand the incoming speech, summarize it, and correctly input it into the subtitler... at 120wpm. I also doubt it's an insane amount of money because the only people I saw doing it in the documentary were young women. I also doubt there is much demand since most tv programs don't have CC and most TVs don't support displaying it.

Good luck

(unless you meant doing that work somewhere outside of Japan)

it's just for emphasis -- you can tell because not everything that is said is subtitled

(now, if you'd please explain those ubiquitous talento reaction shot inserts...)

Digihotaru Wrote:In the 1970's animated Batman, during fight scenes rather than a simple sound effect, the animators would actually splash words like BIFF! POW! BAM! on the screen. It was a technique for adding both humor and impact to the action.

I think that's just a reference to the source medium, though given the status of manga here it may be the same thing going on now...

Jarvik7 Wrote:You'll have to relearn how to type though, because they don't use keyboards. They use a chorder. You'll also need excellent Japanese ability to understand the incoming speech, summarize it, and correctly input it into the subtitler... at 120wpm. I also doubt it's an insane amount of money because the only people I saw doing it in the documentary were young women. I also doubt there is much demand since most tv programs don't have CC and most TVs don't support displaying it.

Good luck

(unless you meant doing that work somewhere outside of Japan)

I did mean outside of Japan. Actually, I seriously did look it up. People who do closed-captioning make about $40,000 with a starting position, and the people who are doing it real time on news broadcasts are making like $140,000 a year. It's in high demand, and you can land a good job with a two year degree and two years of related experience.

Jarvik7 Wrote:I also doubt it's an insane amount of money because the only people I saw doing it in the documentary were young women.

hmm, bit of a dodgy conclusion J7. [replaced sarcasm :-) ]

Thora Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:I also doubt it's an insane amount of money because the only people I saw doing it in the documentary were young women.

hmm, bit of a dodgy conclusion J7. [replaced sarcasm :-) ]

Come on Thora, you know that young women in Japan are considered an unreliable/temporary workforce since they are expected to quit upon marriage/childbirth (even if this is changing), and thus are not paid much as a result.

Since this has veered off a bit into stenographer jobs, what are the non entertainment version of stenographers offered in Japan? I know in hospitals they have a decent salary just based on a solitary conversation I had with such a person (ie, don't take it as gospel).

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this before but the reason that broadcasters don't include subtitles directly in shows and news is because shows in the west have closed captions for the hearing impaired. Therefore if you want to read the news or your favorite show, you simply press the "CC" button on your remote control to view subtitles and you press it again if you would rather not read them...

Some of you guys come up with crazy theories...

Why doesn't (didn't, at least before 2009) Japan care about deaf people then?

aquafina Wrote:I shows in the west have closed captions for the hearing impaired. Therefore if you want to read the news or your favorite show, you simply press the "CC" button on your remote control to view subtitles and you press it again if you would rather not read them...

You can do this in Japan too... I was seeing a Japanese girl who used a hearing aid for a while, and she always kept CC on.

aquafina Wrote:Some of you guys come up with crazy theories...

Which of the theories do you consider crazy?

If the subtitles in Japan were really for the hearing impared, it wouldn't make much sense that they only display a portion of what's being said (about 1/5-1/2 depending on the show). I think it's a lot more about putting emphasis on certain things and making it easier for everyone to watch.

Closed captions have been available in Japan for over a decade, but i think that until recently, only a fraction of TVs could display them. Now that they've made the digital changeover, practically every TV in Japan can show closed captions and most shows have them.

on a typical japanese tv in japan, how do you turn the CC on?

I'm hearing impaired, I LOVE subtitles, and it's a trend that thrills me; I wish they were everywhere (and apologise, as such, to those who find them an intrusive nuisance - I can see why you would). That said, not all subtitles/CC used here in Australia are a literal rendering of the spoken text (there are often omissions/elisions) and as has been pointed out, sub- or surtitles can be used for emphasis or editorial commentary, comic effect, or in order to stream breaking or unrelated content - it's not necessarily a word-perfect rendering of the spoken track. I'd agree that the reasons for their use are myriad, and that single, glib explanations are hazardous.

It's a brilliant service if you want to watch with the sound down or off, a basic communal courtesy when you're living in close proximity (like using a damper or headphones on a piano purchased for use in an apartment building or similar situation).

I suspect it's also a pragmatic response to the changing ways we use media, and an increasing tendency for folks to monitor multiple sources simultaneously. Once upon a time, homes had one screen, and watching it was regarded as a dedicated activity, something you did without much in the way of competing chatter or distraction (a vain hope for many parents!) Now that so many public places feature large flat screens streaming public or licensed content, subtitles are a good compromise between intelligibility for those interested in the content and reduced ambient noise for those who aren't.

I wonder, too, about the obligations of nationally-sponsored channels to ensure that news alerts are readily accessible in a world that seems to be getting noiser and where there is now very high usage of earphones plugged into personal sources.

And yes, they're an absolute gift to those learning a new language <g>.

dtcamero Wrote:on a typical japanese tv in japan, how do you turn the CC on?

I think for most tv's that have CC, the remote will have a button that says 字幕, and you just press that to turn it on or off. I guess there may be some TVs where you have to go into a menu to turn it on or off, but I haven't seen that. It's possible that some cheaper brands might still not support it.

This reminds me of the Japanese newapPer. Certain pages are colorful and have huge title text with borders and cool pattern within the kanji and whatnot. The Korean, American , Chinese newspapers are not as playful lol