So, for those of you who are fluent in a second language to the point that you're weaving thoughts and language together for your inner monologue, when you switch gears to this second language, does it stay 'on' till you encounter your native language, or do you revert back to your native language during the periods that you don't communicate verbally? If so, how long does it take before you switch back, and does it require a 'trigger' of some sort, like encountering your native language again or deciding to use it?

I specify 'fluent' in the sense that you're, for indefinite lengths of time, able to use this second language fluidly and complexly mentally/verbally/etc.

I switch languages even in the same sentence or from one sentence to the other.
I am very bad at numbers in English so even if I am thinking about technical stuff (I would use English for that) and a number comes along I will switch to Japanese or Spanish.

My English sucks, but for me, it depends on what I'm thinking about. If I made posts here and was a little psyched about it, I would be thinking in English for hours. When I think about my American friends, I think in English. Thinking about my sister, I think in Japanese.

Numbers wise, I used to need to switch back to Japanese to do calculations and sometimes the 2sec. pause/delay it entails was kind of embarrassing, so I decided to re-learn the multiplication table in English. Though things like 6*7 still baffles me a bit, I rarely switch to Japanese for calculations anymore.

I find it interesting how you both mentioned maths/numbers. I learned Indonesian for 5 years and personally found numbers to be *the* hardest thing to handle. It probably doesn't help that I don't get along great with numbers in English either...

Speaking of Indonesian, I wouldn't say I was fluent (far from it really) but in my final year my Indonesian exams were 3 hours of listening and reading comprehension as well as essay composition. By the end of the exam I was, without fail, absolutely drained and exhausted- but thinking in Indonesian. This state would usually last until the next day.

"3 hours of listening and reading comprehension as well as essay composition."

Wow. That'd be too tough for me for sure.

blackmacros Wrote:I find it interesting how you both mentioned maths/numbers. I learned Indonesian for 5 years and personally found numbers to be *the* hardest thing to handle. It probably doesn't help that I don't get along great with numbers in English either...

Speaking of Indonesian, I wouldn't say I was fluent (far from it really) but in my final year my Indonesian exams were 3 hours of listening and reading comprehension as well as essay composition. By the end of the exam I was, without fail, absolutely drained and exhausted- but thinking in Indonesian. This state would usually last until the next day.

My area of expertise is national security studies (graduate degree, Georgetown). I can tell you that numbers have done in quite a few spies over the years who were operating in anything other than an L1 environment. For some reason, mathematics seems to revert to L1 at the most inopportune times -- particularly if you are a spy in an L2 or greater environment, that is. A very effective trick is to give a suspected spy a math puzzle of intermediate difficulty and ask that it be solved immediately and orally. You can't believe how many "Oops!" come out of that little exercise, even when the target of the exercise has been extensively trained, and seems so fluent and natural that you can't believe he or she is not a native.

Wow, that's really interesting! I wonder what it is about maths that short-circuits us? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that maths is kind of like a language in and of itself?

blackmacros Wrote:Wow, that's really interesting! I wonder what it is about maths that short-circuits us? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that maths is kind of like a language in and of itself?

Could well be. We didn't know for sure. We just knew that, especially if the subject was caught unawares, it was a very effective trick.

Probably it just people don't often use math in real life so their math ability in L2 tends to suck, i.e., the average learner is not used to numbers and stuff in L2.

Quite a few professors in science including math in research universities in the US are coming from non-English speaking countries, and I don't think they would revert back to their mother tongue when giving lectures or discussing math and stuff with colleagues. It's not uncommon that professors who got Ph.D.'s in their home countries are not very good at daily conversation, and usually they have foreign accents. But it seems they can handle numbers and formulas in L2 without any problems.

I think those spies would get tripped up not only by numbers, but also by anything they're very familiar with in L1 and not in L2.

Hmm...I did get asked by my Japanese friend what I was 'thinking in' in my head haha. For me it kinda rotates L1/L2/L3 (and L4 Mandarin because it was nesseccary when I was living in Shanghai) whatever pops in my head the quickest. Also it's what you're interacting with and what kind of subjects you're dealing with. Strangely I think more in English than my native Dutch. As for numbers, when studying/reading Japanese, I do instantly switch to Cantonese thinking first, there's just no way around it. Lately though it has been Japanese cus I'm always doing things using it.
I guess in what language you learned 'it' first, you switch languages.

Interesting stuff. Maths is one of those things I realize I'll need to put extra effort into for my spy wo--I mean for my general language skills.

So what I'm wondering is, what if you live in a cave in the mountains for a while and avoid books/math/talking to others? Would you continue to do 'self talk' in the last language you used, would you revert back automatically to the native language, would you have to make a conscious choice to avoid it or pursue it? Could you give yourself a 'nudge' now and then and keep thinking in your L2?

The more I think about it, the more I guess there's always going to be nuances and concepts you're going to end up 'dual' thinking about or thinking about in the L1.

blackmacros Wrote:Speaking of Indonesian, I wouldn't say I was fluent (far from it really) but in my final year my Indonesian exams were 3 hours of listening and reading comprehension as well as essay composition. By the end of the exam I was, without fail, absolutely drained and exhausted- but thinking in Indonesian. This state would usually last until the next day.

Unrelated with the main topic but:
I can read Malay emails from friends and write with help of dictionary. Would you say that at this stage is good idea to learn also Indonesian?
Do you have any recommendation about how to learn the language? Any resources?


BTW, I have notice that many people being in a group where they should use a language with one person and other with another, they eventually mix and talk in the wrong language to the wrong person.
I dont know why, manage not to fall in this, but does it happen to you?

This was my pre-AJATT days so I don't really have any recommendations for learning the language. I just showed up to class. But the two languages are very, very similar. I didn't have too much trouble communicating while I was in Malaysia. I'm not even sure you would really need to do much active study of it if you're already pretty good at Malaysian.

It seems to me that you're talking about thinking in another language without realizing it for long periods of time, so much that you might in theory stop thinking in your own language. I think that's impossible. No matter how fluent you are and how quickly another language jumps into your mind, it always, without fail, takes more effort to think in another language than your own. Not that you need to put in effort into it, just that it takes more mental resources. I have no doubt that unless you have a need for L2+, you revert back to your L1 almost immediately unless you force yourself not to, thats certainly how English is for me. As soon as I "change subject" in my head, I revert back to Swedish.

Tobberoth Wrote:It seems to me that you're talking about thinking in another language without realizing it for long periods of time, so much that you might in theory stop thinking in your own language. I think that's impossible. No matter how fluent you are and how quickly another language jumps into your mind, it always, without fail, takes more effort to think in another language than your own. Not that you need to put in effort into it, just that it takes more mental resources. I have no doubt that unless you have a need for L2+, you revert back to your L1 almost immediately unless you force yourself not to, thats certainly how English is for me. As soon as I "change subject" in my head, I revert back to Swedish.

So one can never escape their mind's 'native soil', as it were? Curses.

ruiner Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:It seems to me that you're talking about thinking in another language without realizing it for long periods of time, so much that you might in theory stop thinking in your own language. I think that's impossible. No matter how fluent you are and how quickly another language jumps into your mind, it always, without fail, takes more effort to think in another language than your own. Not that you need to put in effort into it, just that it takes more mental resources. I have no doubt that unless you have a need for L2+, you revert back to your L1 almost immediately unless you force yourself not to, thats certainly how English is for me. As soon as I "change subject" in my head, I revert back to Swedish.

So one can never escape their mind's 'native soil', as it were? Curses.

Well, who knows. If you live somewhere else and actively stop thinking in your own language and force yourself to think in your L2 for a REALLY long time, I guess it could eventually replace your L1. I doubt there is any point in doing such a thing though.

Different languages have their limitations in certain fields, with more vocabulary, terms, nuances to the words, etc, for a specific subject. That's the rule my brain tends to follow, if that makes sense. When thinking about European classical music, for example, I think in English, because there's more control over the complexity and trek of my thoughts when I have all the French, German, Italian, vocabulary in addition. Though there are translations for the musical terms in Japanese, they have a different feeling ... it's not as precise. I can't really explain it well.

I just feel like I am better able to wield ideas based upon the language and its relation to a specific topic.

My native language is Danish but at work I write entirely in English even though my thoughts are always in Danish. If I go abroad my thoughts changes from Danish to English within a few months. The first indication of this happening is that people start talking English when I dream. I kinda prefer dreaming in Danish, so it irritates me a bit that I have no control over what language the "dream actors" speak. My mind could at least attach some Danish subs, but nooo, I have to listen to imported foreign dreams.Or so it has apparently been decided by the Dream Administration.

How do we know if we even think in a language? Perhaps we think in concepts. (Outside of conscious internal dialogue, rehearsing and remembering conversation, I mean.)

As others mentioned, certain languages are said to be better suited than others for certain types of communication. (I find that really interesting - I wonder what Japanese is thought to be good for.) But I'm not sure it means we think in a specific language. Don't people without language think? Maybe language just influences how we think.

Thora Wrote:How do we know if we even think in a language? Perhaps we think in concepts. (Outside of conscious internal dialogue, rehearsing and remembering conversation, I mean.)

I'm talking about inner monologues/self talk and similar thinking like what you listed above.

IceCream Wrote:i think theres pretty good evidence to suggest we don't think in language at least some of the time. its a good point.

personally, i think i don't a lot of the time. its more like arranging concepts or feelings in patterns. Haven't you ever had the feeling that you think something, but your too lazy to think about thinking it, and when you have time you'll think about it in words? i get that all the time...

A good point but a moot one, I already started a thread about that ongoing debate. ;p I'm talking about for when we *do* think in a language. Inner dialogue, self talk, whatever you want to call it.

I consider myself to be almost fluent in English.
I live in Japan and my job involves speaking Japanese and English only. My native language is German.
By now I think in English quite often, it just happens. Sometimes even more than in German (maybe). Actually I don't really pay attention to that.

When I first came here it was different, though. It happened quite often that I wanted to say something in English, but something German came out of my mouth.
Now .. when calling my people back home and I wanna say something in German, sometimes only English would come out of my mouth.
Strange

Nothing like that with Japanese yet, though. My Japanese is not good enough for that yet.
Although sometimes it happens that I try to remember a word in English and for some reason I remember the Japanese word before the English expression (^^')>

My native language is Serbian, but I've been living with my family in the US for the past 10 years. I knew almost no English when I came here, but now I speak English at work and with my boyfriend, and also with my younger sister. I still speak Serbian with my parents daily.

Lately I mostly think in English, because it's the language I use the most. I'm trying to think in Japanese, but I don't have enough knowledge yet to make it work, so I switch back easily. When I'm talking to my parents, I think in Serbian or English depending on the subject. I switched languages in high school, so things that I learned prior, for example animal and plant names, I still think about in Serbian. Other concepts that I learned about after coming to US, such as economics and politics, I think about in English. This is particularly annoying when I talk to my old friends from Serbia, because they use all these "grown up" terms that I never learned in Serbian, plus political/economic/legal system there is different and I have no idea how it works.

I sometimes also use grammar from one language and populate it with nouns/verbs/adjectives from another. This happens usually after talking to my parents in Serbian and then I continue thinking in Serbian, but can't remember some words, so I use English ones instead because they are more readily available.