Just stumbled across a video on YouTube, where a guy living in Japan says that a lot of Japanese have little interest in hearing you speak Japanese or speaking it with you, since many of them have studied English for so long and would rather use it. This contradicts most of what I hear about foreigners in Japan and although I'm used to hearing this about Korea, for instance, I was under the (perhaps false) impression that speaking Japanese in Japan was much more of a necessity. Apparently the guy got yelled at by one woman for speaking Japanese to her and not English! I'm sure there are those who would prefer English, no doubt, but is this quite as widespread as he makes it out to be?

http://[video=youtube]http://www.youtube...K0[/video]

I just got back from spending 2 weeks in Japan. So I have VERY little experience compared to most other people probably. And this is just my personal experience and impression.

Around tokyo, people assume that you can't speak Japanese. Even still, most people I encountered had poor English skills, and I got the impression that most of them were ashamed to try talking to me, because they know their English is bad.

When I went to some smaller cities that don't see a lot of tourists, I felt that most people expected me to speak Japanese.

I've been reading at this other forum that seems to be filled with a handful of disgruntled non-Japanese people living in Japan (I guess the shock of being a minority for the first time in their lives is a lot more than they expected it to be?) and they often discuss how, if they go in a store and speak Japanese, the store people can't understand what they're saying even if they speak Japanese.

I think it may be because Japanese people aren't used to the idea of non-Japanese speaking Japanese (They're probably thinking: Clearly, this person is speaking English, right? Or some other Europeanese...) but maybe also because if they are accompanied by a Japanese looking person, they simply don't recognize the foreigner to be a customer, but rather, a dependent, like if a mom walked in a store with her 3 year old.

As a storekeeper you don't expect the three year old to come up to you and be all "すみませんが、大根二つやきゅうり五つお願いします。" You expect the mom to do the talking, and the kid to just babble あぁがと (ありがとう) and so on.

That's quite interesting.

Would it make a difference if you told them you were russian and that you didn't know english? aka, pulling a fast one.

Yeah, that's a common tactic when encountering this problem. Just be all "dude I only speak Kalallisut".

yeah i'd be pretty polite about it if I had to do it.

Unfortunately, there are many foreigners in Japan who can't speak Japanese, and can't read or write kanji very well. At least this is my impression.

Case in point: I needed to change my address on my Japanese drivers license so I told the nice ladies what I wanted to do and when they presented the form to me, they said it was OK to write my address in romaji.

When I wrote the kanji for my address and wrote my name in katakana, they said "Wow!"(凄い！すご・い！).

While waiting for them to proccess the paperwork, 2 foreigners were trying to do something, and the Japanese lady said in very slow Japanese "Do you have a Japanese friend you can call?"

One person just stared at her and the other pulled his phone out and offered it to her.

I'm sure others have had similar experiences.

ocircle Wrote:As a storekeeper you don't expect the three year old to come up to you and be all "すみませんが、大根二つやきゅうり五つお願いします。" You expect the mom to do the talking, and the kid to just babble あぁがと (ありがとう) and so on.

The people who regularly complain about this issue generally just tend to be really bad at Japanese, but think they are great at it because they always get "日本語お上手ですね" and don't realize that it's more of an expression of pity than awe.

btw: すみません、大根２本ときゅうり５本をください is more natural. や lists examples from an incomplete list, so it makes no sense when asking a storeclerk to give you something. The が after すみません sounds a bit weird in this context (excuse me, I'd like blahblah vs Excuse me but I'd like blahblah). Finally, one should always try to use the correct counters unless they are obscure.

Jarvik7 Wrote:The people who regularly complain about this issue generally just tend to be really bad at Japanese, but think they are great at it because they always get "日本語お上手ですね" and don't realize that it's more of an expression of pity than awe.

That is all it really boils down to. There is no way an average Japanese person, who is not very good at english, is going to hear perfect Japanese come out of a foreigner's mouth and say "man I really wish this guy would speak in English so I can struggle to communicate with him".

Hmm... I thought maybe it was acceptable for "foreigners" to speak anglo-fied Japanese, because so many of them do but a lot of Japanese people would remark "日本語お上手ですね!" and so on. .. could it had in fact simply been that they didn't want to offer criticism (be polite)?

I can't stand an anglo accent myself, but I don't have that problem because I learned Japanese through Korean. But in return, I think I have a typical Korean intonation when it comes to some Japanese sentences. I keep meaning to post on a "rate my spoken Japanese!" kind of thread, but I don't feel satisfied about how my voice sounds.

This is an interesting topic, and links to something I wanted to get off my chest for awhile.

Lots of people complain about Japanese people not believing that foreigners can speak good Japanese, and get impressed at the smallest inklings of knowledge in Japanese. Some foreigners are insulted, thinking that they should at least fit in a little better. "I'm speaking to them in Japanese, and they are speechless! Flabbergasted!" I would hear them say.

I used to think the same as well. The other day however, I saw a Caucasian person speaking to someone in Vietnamese (I'm Vietnamese). I was flabbergasted, and speechless. Then I finally understood how the Japanese feel in the same situation.

How good was his Vietnamese though?

ChristopherB Wrote:How good was his Vietnamese though?

It was fine. Perfect, even. But that didn't wipe away the "WTF" feeling I got.

@Nii87; I'm Caucasian and i speak fluent Viet as well. I've encountered this before. Now most people consider me "lai" when the first meet me, so it's not really the same issue anymore.

The "flabbergasting" effect can occur if I speak Vietnamese to someone who doesn't expect it. It's like picking up a can of pepsi, taking a belt, and to your surprise. its milk! My face sets their brain to hear English, and if I speak in Vietnamese, they can't comprehend what I said until about 2 seconds passes, or when I repeat myself.

In the situation of meeting a new Vietnamese person, I usually use Vietnamese right off the bat. However, if they push for English, then I'll speak English. If their English is not advanced, but they want to practice, then they almost always switch back to Vietnamese. This is because people want conversations to be efficient. Simply put, the stronger language that both people share is the one that will be used in a conversation. For example, I never use Vietnamese with American-born/Aus born Vietnamese, because not only is it pointless, its also kinda rude in a way. There are some people who insist on using English, no matter how good you are, but I find this to be rare.

The thing is, I never have to force Vietnamese on anyone, they'll just naturally switch back to it. I used to get flustered when people used English with me, but now I just go with it and it always works out for the best. The point of language is to communicate, no? Most people are lazy. They opt for speed, accuracy, and efficiency when speaking, so they'll switch to whatever language is best for both parties.

It's exactly the same with Japanese.

@Nii87; btw, you should buy a Han-Viet dictionary and learn the readings. Tons of freebies for On readings.

Thanks Stehr, its nice to see the opinion from the 'other side'.

stehr Wrote:For example, I never use Vietnamese with American-born/Aus born Vietnamese, because not only is it pointless, its also kinda rude in a way. There are some people who insist on using English, no matter how good you are, but I find this to be rare.

This is a particularly important point. I noticed there's some sort of unspoken rule that we don't speak Vietnamese in public unless everyone around us were Vietnamese as well. The introduction of a Caucasian person who speaks Vietnamese throws the entire balance into disarray =P

Anyway back to the main point, don't get insulted because a Japanese person seems shocked that you can speak Japanese. They're just experiencing momentary confusion =)

ocircle Wrote:Hmm... I thought maybe it was acceptable for "foreigners" to speak anglo-fied Japanese, because so many of them do but a lot of Japanese people would remark "日本語お上手ですね!" and so on. .. could it had in fact simply been that they didn't want to offer criticism (be polite)?

That's exactly right. In fact, they may not understand a word (or aren't listening due to the novelty of hearing their language being spoken by a foreigner), and yet still praise you to high heaven!

I think it depends on what you mean by "acceptable." Most people would never say, "You're Japanese is awful." But if after some years you find you're still mangling the pronunciation and honorifics in a business or social setting, well, be prepared for lots of miscommunication and uncomfortable silences!

Empty flattery is a part of Japanese culture. There is even a word for it (お世辞). It is why Japanese people frequently compliment foreigners on their use of chopsticks, even if they are dropping food all over the floor.

Foreigners who actually are adept at their use never/rarely hear 箸お上手ですね, because they use them naturally and the Japanese people in their company don't even register that a foreigner is using chopsticks. It is the same with Japanese language. If you are good enough at it, it doesn't register in the minds of Japanese. Foreigners who can speak good Japanese aren't rare enough in most cities to completely flabbergast someone, even if they are outnumbered by those who murder the language. I used to think in the same way as the regular complainers, but as I got better at Japanese I "surprised" fewer Japanese people. I meet no one who would rather attempt to speak English to me. When I was in university here girls would walk up to me and speak English, but that was only on the uni campus.

While sometimes someone you run into will really just be looking for an excuse to speak English, usually if someone responds to your Japanese with English it's because what you said wasn't very fluent (in grammar/appropriate vocab/pronunciation/whatever) and they think that communication using their broken English might be more efficient. Normally a store clerk etc wouldn't be using their English on customers for their own purposes, they are in business-mode.

ChristopherB Wrote:Apparently the guy got yelled at by one woman for speaking Japanese to her and not English!

The lady who yelled at him was someone he was working with. A lot of eikaiwa schools will want you to speak English in the school even outside of the lesson time to keep the "English environment" going. I can't imagine a random person out in public yelling at you for speaking Japanese.

It's all about how the conversation starts. If you're in Tokyo and start talking in Japanese to someone (and you're not horribly bad at it), they will answer in Japanese at least 95% of the time. During my year living in Japan, it happened to me once or twice that I got English thrown back at me when I spoke Japanese, and I'm pretty sure that the person I was talking to (cashier) simply didn't register that I was actually speaking Japanese.

Nii87 Wrote:

ChristopherB Wrote:How good was his Vietnamese though?

It was fine. Perfect, even. But that didn't wipe away the "WTF" feeling I got.

I've never met a non-Korean who can speak Korean like a native, so I can't say what my reaction would be like, but generally they've been very anglofied and difficult to understand. Even when people tell me they're studying Korean these days, I just pass over it with a simple "oh" or "cool" and keep a mental note to myself to avoid this person, because I don't want to stand around all day perfecting their intonation to my satisfaction.

Even if I speak the language, I don't find it to be my job to teach every person who's interested in learning it. I think it's their job to find someone else who's willing to teach them, or for them to find their own help. I know there are very few good Korean educational resources, but I don't this means I need to show any more pity than I'm willing to give.

ocircle Wrote:

Nii87 Wrote:

ChristopherB Wrote:How good was his Vietnamese though?

It was fine. Perfect, even. But that didn't wipe away the "WTF" feeling I got.

I've never met a non-Korean who can speak Korean like a native, so I can't say what my reaction would be like, but generally they've been very anglofied and difficult to understand. Even when people tell me they're studying Korean these days, I just pass over it with a simple "oh" or "cool" and keep a mental note to myself to avoid this person, because I don't want to stand around all day perfecting their intonation to my satisfaction.

Even if I speak the language, I don't find it to be my job to teach every person who's interested in learning it. I think it's their job to find someone else who's willing to teach them, or for them to find their own help. I know there are very few good Korean educational resources, but I don't this means I need to show any more pity than I'm willing to give.

That's a very unkorean opinion, I'd say. Koreans are, at least compared to Europeans, vehemently nationalistic and from my experience, LOVES it when foreigners are interested in Korean. Since you live in the US, I'm sure it's very different for you, thus the unusual opinion. When I lived in Japan, every single Korean wanted to teach you basic korean, even if you didn't show any interest.

As for your view on being a teacher though, I agree 100%. I often tell people not to expect Japanese people to sit around and fix their mistakes, that's the job of a teacher, not a friend. You definitely shouldn't be forced to teach or help anyone... but I don't see why you have to avoid people for that. Just because their Korean isn't perfect doesn't mean you have to teach them or correct them. Just talk to them in correct korean, and they will learn. Like the awesome Japanese proverb says:

全問の小僧習わぬ経を読む

@Tobb: 門前の小僧習わぬ経を読む

ocircle Wrote:I've never met a non-Korean who can speak Korean like a native, so I can't say what my reaction would be like..

Let us know what your initial reaction is

ocircle Wrote:As a storekeeper you don't expect the three year old to come up to you and be all "すみませんが、大根二つやきゅうり五つお願いします。" You expect the mom to do the talking, and the kid to just babble あぁがと (ありがとう) and so on.

However strange it may be, but that is exactly what happened to a couple I know, when they lived in Japan. They were working in the embassy (as administrative staff) and didn`t have to use Japanese at all. While their 3 year old boy was in the Japanese kindergarten. 3-4 monthes after entering kindergarten this kid became interpreter for his parents in everyday life (shopping, eating, entertainment).

aphasiac Wrote:

ocircle Wrote:I've never met a non-Korean who can speak Korean like a native, so I can't say what my reaction would be like..

Let us know what your initial reaction is

Oh god, should I even dare?
Just because they don't look "Korean" I'll probably be listening more to see if they make any errors in their speech than what they're actually saying. o_o gosh, this is probably what Japanese people do too when you look foreign or say you're from another country! Even though I've not been in Korea for over 10 years I still find anglofied Korean strange and unacceptable