Jarvik7 Wrote:@Tobb: 門前の小僧習わぬ経を読む

Wow, how the hell didn't I notice that one. Anyway, how awesome the proverb is stands.

I inflict my 耳障り Japanese on everyone equally, regardless of their preferences or linguistic abilities.

ocircle Wrote:I've never met a non-Korean who can speak Korean like a native, so I can't say what my reaction would be like, but generally they've been very anglofied and difficult to understand.

I don't want to steer this thread really far off topic, but I'd like to hear your opinion of my jiu-jitsu coach's Korean. The Koreans at our gym usually say he speaks Korean well, but I wonder if his accent is Korean? He started learning Korean in his 20s.

aphasiac Wrote:

ocircle Wrote:I've never met a non-Korean who can speak Korean like a native, so I can't say what my reaction would be like..

Let us know what your initial reaction is

Ah gosh I finally did.. but

The first video's girl has a funny pronunciation, like she was speaking something else a year or two ago. The words she is saying are fine but even without seeing what she looks like (I listened to the video first, then I saw it o_o I thought maybe if I couldn't pick out the "foreigner" this way then they're doing really well.) I could hear weird squirks in her speech that didn't seem to be derived from a local dialect (like ending a syllable in L instead of R. Even Koreans don't believe this, but we really have no L sounds. Any word that sort of has a L sound is supposed to be pronunciation with an R sound anyway. Common phrases like 몰라 [often romanticized as sounding like "molla" when in fact most Koreans say "More-ra"] come to mind. It is also probably why a lot of Koreans sound like they're saying "Hare-Row" when they are trying to say "Hello" and Core-Ra instead of "Cola")

The second group of girls seems to have almost indistinguishable speech, but when it came to how they said some things I couldn't help but feel like this was the second generation Koreans bible study group talking. They seemed okay with repeating the same few sentences intonation or structures, as if they only had their parents who spoke Korean while everyone else did not. I don't know how to explain it, but from hearing their speech I thought they were thinking in a very foreign manner, or that they came from alien social groups (parents left Korea at different times, or different regions?). It also felt a little wrong that some guy had hoarded up these poor girls to sit on that small sofa together just because they knew the same language. Like some kind of setup for that kind of video.

The martial arts guy (posted later in this thread) doesn't speak long enough for me to discern if he is Korean or not just by listening to him (although, him speaking English is a dead giveaway, because Koreans from Korea rarely become able to speak English in the casual manner that he was using it) but I bet if you found his master, he would sound just like him. Martial arts guy has pretty good intonation and word usage, but it's kind of hard to tell since he didn't seem to want to say a full sentence anywhere in the video. o_O Guys sometimes talk like that though, in fragments. But I think if I was going to be making a video I'd kick it up a politeness level and at least follow my sentences to the end. I don't think he ever once addressed the camera in Korea either. There wasn't any shift in his politeness (or should I say, impoliteness).

If you think about it in English, what he says is fine and acceptable, but in Korean, you can't just be all take-it-easy casual like that. For videos you have no idea who will see it, so most people chose to use a slightly more formal speech. Even if you want to seem like a "hey I'm cool bro~" kind of guy the purpose of politeness isn't to give your speech character and personality, but mainly to facilitate the most effective mode of communication with the person who's hearing you. If you don't use the right formality level people people will get so caught up in your weird usage of language that it'll take them more effort to pay attention to the purpose of your speaking.


o_O man even I'm confused about what I wrote, but it's just a cultural thing. When you live in Korea as a Korean you get used to all these set phrases and commonly used words. However, if you only hear mom and dad talking Korean you only pick up a portion of these set social interactions. Sometimes I even play guessing games in my mind as to how long ago someone has left Korea or if they have ever even been to Korea by seeing what words they use or what sort of interactions they are capable of. Like when I was in Korea, the word 썰렁 (Really lame, boring, pathetic) was gaining popularity in the lexicon, but I'm sure these days Koreans choose to use a slightly different adjective to explain a situation that I would had immediately declared as being "썰렁".

During every year there's a bunch words that are really popular, but then those fall out of trend quickly and a new set of words and ways of thinking are favored. There's Korean the language, and then another mountain of Korean language that's only used because of modern, popular Korean culture. The two of them together make what Korean who live in Korea consider Korean.


Sorry about this rant getting so nonsensical and long, but since I'm technically still an insider myself, I can't figure out how to look at the Korean language objectively.

as far as non-koreans speaking korean there's this TV show so I'm sure koreans are used to it. some of these girls have really good pronounciation though there's some where there's this accent but they all speak well.. otherwise hwy put em on tv.

All I remember about foreigners speaking Korean was this man and woman that were on KBS or SBS (the Korean stations, now the Japanese ones) and all they ever did was sing "Congratulations" or get interviewed on television about the same questions over and over (where are you from, and why did you learn Korean? Do you know x even though you're a foreigner?) But even those guys had an anglo accent.

I thought it was kind of weird though. Almost reminiscent of old circuses where they would put "exotic" looking people on display in cages, like animals

The stance that foreigners can't imitate native speakers isn't far fetched at all or wrong. I'd give it more clout when it comes to Japan or Korea since these countries have a more specified culture and interactions since their languages are only used in those areas, unlike Spanish/English which have more international and therefore broader ways of speaking them.


Everyone just wants to prove the statement wrong, because we're all language learners and don't want to believe that such a limit for us exists.

However, I'll say that I haven't met anyone who passed that limit either, in Spanish or English. I can tell if someone is from Mexico City like me or if they grew up elsewhere, without fail. Its not an issue about how many vocab words you know or grammar, or how many hours you spend listening to whatever podcast, etc. Its that culturally there are gaps. Native speakers have their whole life/youth to draw references, jokes, phrases from.
Its simply that many of these things aren't recorded for study purposes.


Still, I'd like to think "***** that" and that my japanese will elevate itself beyond those limits.

Non-natives will never be native perfect. It will never happen. You have to become a native to do it ie live in that country in your formative years and then continue to do so for many more.

Even natives who are raised by non-native parents sound not quite native. In Australia many Asian people of Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese and Korean descent are natives but their parents are not. While their English is perfect usually, slightly strange pronunciation sometimes creeps in or a strange choice of words and you will think for a moment that they are not quite native, as they probably speak or at least hear another language in their home life.

Who cares if you ever sound native? Just try to and give non-native speaker's of your language a break.

It sounds like this 'insider' thing in Korea is even more hardcore than in Japan eh?

Anyway, if you spent like 700 hours learning Japanese and had never actually used it, of course you want to use it when you see a Japanese speaking people right? Believe it or not, J people spend that much in school so I'm not surprised they want to use it. They want to use English and you want to use Japanese so you have to fight for it.

I have a friend, he's American, blond, 6 feet tall, worked in Japan for 7 years, speaks quite impressive Japanese, and he never allow J people to talk to him in English. He even speaks to his J wife in Japanese. Only J person insolent enough to speak to him in English is me and that's not because my English is better than his Japanese. I want him to put up with my English so I don't have to put up with his Japanese

NAH! But it's true and sad for those of us who actually can speak (a little bit) Japanese.
And it doesn't really matter where you live. I've been in big cities like Tokyo or Osaka quite often, but I live in a very small city (almost inaka-like). It's the same almost everywhere.
I've had so many different experiences with this by now.

Some people speak English to you asking you where you're from and are apparently only interested in testing their own English ability. I usually answer in Japanese that I'm from Germany and that I can't speak English at all. Then they are usually disappointed and stop talking to me *lol*

Other people keep answering in English although I've been talking to them in Japanese (sometimes I get insecure and ask my Japanese coworkers afterwards if something was wrong with my Japanese, but apparently everything was alright). Maybe they want to test their English just like I want to test my Japanese

I've had situations where I couldn't figure out what they were saying in English at all!!!! (didn't even sound like English to me) so I asked them politely to say it one more time in Japanese. Never had problems with that.

And some people seem to be relieved when they hear that you can speak Japanese and will gladly answer in Japanese. Some (esp. older people) go all out, though, starting to talk really fast and with a strong local dialect which makes it sometimes difficult to figure out what's going on.

Me: こんにちは。
Japanese dude: わぁ、日本語とても上手ですね！
Me: (((((￢_￢) フンッ ...

It's true. Japanese people tend to freak out if a foreigner speaks ANY Japanese. Some really start praising you after only 1 or 2 Japanese words. It's ridiculous. I know that most of them don't mean it in a bad way. They want to be polite AND there are just so many foreigners that can't speak Japanese, so no wonder. But to act on the assumption that foreigners can't speak Japanese (very well) because their brains are not as superior as Japanese people's brains is ridiculous (and some Japanese still think this is really the case *shakes head*).

I've also had people on the phone, not noticing that I'm a foreigner until I said my name later on and that's when some of them start freaking out, suddenly speaking slowly or whatever ┐(-。ー┌ヤレヤレ

[/blabbering]

I looove to surprise people so it's so not fun people don't get freaked out when I speak English here :/

ocircle Wrote:

Nii87 Wrote:

ChristopherB Wrote:How good was his Vietnamese though?

It was fine. Perfect, even. But that didn't wipe away the "WTF" feeling I got.

I've never met a non-Korean who can speak Korean like a native, so I can't say what my reaction would be like, but generally they've been very anglofied and difficult to understand.

I tend to agree with this in terms of English native speaking as well. I would have to say that 99% of the time that you talk to a non-native English speaker, you can tell within a few sentences that they aren't a native speaker, mainly through their choice of words, the ways in which they construct the sentences in casual conversational English (slang etc), and of course accent.

Usually this is more the case for Europeans because it is much more difficult to distinguish their ethnicity based solely on appearance. The same thing applies when you hear native speakers from Britain, America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa etc. They may have been living in your country for years, but there is always something that will give it away.

I think the difference with English, compared to Japanese, Korean etc is that we are so used to hearing foreigners speak English that it does not surprise us at all, and that we have much more experience in patching together English that might not be 'perfect'.

The only experience as an English native that I have had, which would be a similar situtation to the foreigner speaking Japanese in Japan would be when you let poor judgement/generalising get in the way, and occassionally expect someone of a non-caucasian appearance to not speak native level English.

For example, where I work I often have to communicate with backpackers from Asian countries, whom usually speak hardly any English (or infact say anything at all). And where I live, most people of Asian ethnicity are here as backpackers. Then a little while later, a customer who also appears to be a backpacker (of course, generalising based on a person's appearance, is most definitely not the best thing to do, but unfortunately we all do it) will surprise you by being a native English speaker, although you expected to them to be another backpacker.

OsakaDan Wrote:I think the difference with English, compared to Japanese, Korean etc is that we are so used to hearing foreigners speak English that it does not surprise us at all, and that we have much more experience in patching together English that might not be 'perfect'.

As a Japanese-American in Japan, I sometimes help tourists if I see them completely lost. I've also had a few people foreigners ask me for directions and such. All of them seemed completely shocked that I speak perfect English, even though they wouldn't be the least bit shocked if the same conversation took place in the US.

Maybe in Japan everybody is easily shocked?

I'd also like to say my experiences with people trying to speak English vs Japanese with me are really what people think is easier to communicate. I tend to shift into that too. There's a few people who I speak English with, because their English is much better than my Japanese, and visa versa.

People might want to practice a language, but every time they can't figure out how to say something, it's just too easy to use the easier language. Even if it's just for one word, the whole conversation feels a little "nudge" towards the easier language, until it finally switches to the easier one.

I've actually had conversations where we would switch languages multiple times, completely subconsciously. Then one of us realizes "did we just switch languages 3 times in 5 minutes?"

Certainly some people want to practice their English on random foreigners they run into, but I don't think the majority would want you to speak English. If anything, most of the Japanese would get annoyed if you're living in Japan for years and don't speak Japanese. If the guy in the video thinks the Japanese prefer English to the local language, there must be a reason people around him behave like that. Maybe his Japanese is not very good. Maybe the Japanese people he's talking about are the minority who love Caucasian for reasons I don't really understand. Also, it's not surprising that many of the friends a native English speaker makes in Japan are English learners or interested in English in some way.

If you're a traveler, of course it's ok if you don't speak Japanese. We (are forced to) learn English as an international auxiliary language for several years at school, so we don't think it's strange if travelers from foreign contries, regardless of whether they're native English speakers, assume they can use English to communicate. It'll be nicer if you memorize some Japanese greetings and simple phrases while you are in a plane to Japan, though.

Anyway, believing that people want to use English because they had to learn the language at school is as ludicrous as saying everyone loves math formulas and wants to calculate numbers whenever we can because we learned math at school. I know conversational English skills are one of the rarer things we learn at school that don't make you look nerdy if you're good at them. But that doesn't make everyone want to learn the foreign language we don't need in our daily lives.

If your Japanese is good and still people use English even if they're not English learners or young girls who do ganjin-hunt, then they may be showing their respect in the wrong way; they may be thinking they have to use a foreign language as well because you're fluently speaking a foreign language. But probably it's just your Japanese isn't as good as you think it is.

As for the belief that foreigners can't learn the Japanese language, it's natural for the Japanese to assume foreigners would suck at Japanese as hard as we do at English. Every Japanese adult learned English at school for years, and most of us can't speak it at all. If you're coming from a country where usually people don't learn Japanese at school, it just makes sense to think you don't speak Japanese well. If you've been living in Japan for years, then that's another story though.

By the way, 日本語お上手ですね is kind of a greeting or protocol. Taking it literally is as ridiculous as thinking Americans are all nosy because they always ask you "How's going?" and "What's up?" When someone says 〜上手ですね like this, you're supposed to respond by "いえいえ、まだまだです。," "いえ、上手だなんてとんでもない。" or something along those lines. It's the same as "Fine," "Not much," and other replies you say whether it's true or not.

I think the guy in the video mostly communicates with his coworkers and his students at the English school he works at, so it would be easy for him to assume that Japanese want him to speak English.

But, as Magamo said, out in "the real world" 95% of Japanese will not be able to form a complete sentence in English nor will they have any interest in doing so.

I thought it was quite funny when he said you are more likely to get what you want if you use English than Japanese. That certainly isn't the case with me. I can't go to the bank and get far using English. I can't call my realtor and explain some problem I'm having with my apartment and expect to be understood in English. I can't ask questions about products at stores in English.

You could, however, ask the sectrary at the school your working at to go with you to the bank or call your realtor and explain the problem on your behalf or ask one of your students to go to the store with you and make them VERY happy if you ask them in English.

But, I think the thing that bothered me the most was his view that "Japanese expect me to act a certain way or do certain things, so I better do what they expect." (help keep the stereotype alive. ) I say who cares what Japanese expect. Do what is best for you and what is going to make your life the easiest. Which for me definetely means being able to speak Japanese in Japan.

Jarvik7 Wrote:

ocircle Wrote:"すみませんが、大根二つやきゅうり五つお願いします。

btw: すみません、大根２本ときゅうり５本をください is more natural. や lists examples from an incomplete list, so it makes no sense when asking a storeclerk to give you something. The が after すみません sounds a bit weird in this context (excuse me, I'd like blahblah vs Excuse me but I'd like blahblah). Finally, one should always try to use the correct counters unless they are obscure.

Shouldn't it be すみません、大根を２本ときゅうりを５本ください。 You can't put が or を after specifying a quantity, it's gotta be before. </being picky>

Tzadeck Wrote:

Jarvik7 Wrote:

ocircle Wrote:"すみませんが、大根二つやきゅうり五つお願いします。

btw: すみません、大根２本ときゅうり５本をください is more natural. や lists examples from an incomplete list, so it makes no sense when asking a storeclerk to give you something. The が after すみません sounds a bit weird in this context (excuse me, I'd like blahblah vs Excuse me but I'd like blahblah). Finally, one should always try to use the correct counters unless they are obscure.

Shouldn't it be すみません、大根を２本ときゅうりを５本ください。 You can't put が or を after specifying a quantity, it's gotta be before. </being picky>

Pretty sure both are completely acceptable.

heromode Wrote:Pretty sure both are completely acceptable.

Really? My Japanese teacher used to correct us on that, and on tests another teacher of mine also marked it wrong. Maybe it's used colloquially, I have no idea.

きゅうりを５本ください。is better and always works, though きゅうり５本をください。makes sense. The latter form sounds like the speaker is treating multiple things as a group, so it isn't always correct. For example, if you can get a special discount for each 5 cucumbers, you may say きゅうり５本をください. If you're not sure when it's ok to put を/が after a quantity, it'd be better to stick to the を/が-before-quantity rule until you learn the difference from exposure.

magamo Wrote:きゅうりを５本ください。is better and always works, though きゅうり５本をください。makes sense. The latter form sounds like the speaker is treating multiple things as a group, so it isn't always correct. For example, if you can get a special discount for each 5 cucumbers, you may say きゅうり５本をください. If you're not sure when it's ok to put を/が after a quantity, it'd be better to stick to the を/が-before-quantity rule until you learn the difference from exposure.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up!

My Japanese grammar bricks are stashed in storage atm, but I have a distinct memory of the the part relating to counters having multiple example sentences with the counter both before and after the particle.

I know a lot of people have issues with ALC but here's some examples:

http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E4%B8%80%E6%9E%9A%E3%82%92/UTF-8/

It's ambiguous. The way I parse the sentence is as the daikon and the cukes being a set of things that I want (as magamo indicated), that can be represented as X. In this interpretation it reduces down to Xをください. If you are only asking for one (non group) thing, are dragging out your request as if you are thinking of what you want while you say it, and in some other circumstances, this isn't an option so you have to place the particles differently.

I'm polishing off a translation and don't want to pull out my grammar references, so this is just based off my gut feelings & exposure in JP (grocery) stores.

Yay procrastination.

heromode Wrote:My Japanese grammar bricks are stashed in storage atm, but I have a distinct memory of the the part relating to counters having multiple example sentences with the counter both before and after the particle.

I know a lot of people have issues with ALC but here's some examples:

http://eow.alc.co.jp/%E4%B8%80%E6%9E%9A%E3%82%92/UTF-8/

一枚 can also be used as an adverb. It's not always a number+counter.

ocircle Wrote:they often discuss how, if they go in a store and speak Japanese, the store people can't understand what they're saying even if they speak Japanese.

To get back on topic...

I've heard this often as well, but this has never ever happened to me. I've lived in Japan a year and a half, in two cities, and have visited many of the major cities. I'm of the impression that it doesn't really happen to people unless their Japanese is bad.

Agree,

Hasn`t happened to me in Japan.

I sometimes have had young waiters who confirm the order
with the Japanese person at the table, but in that case you
just stop them and clarify that`s it your order, and they should
talk to you

a.