Brace yourself: long-winded post ahead.

I believe I've posted before about my plans to major in Chinese and minor in Japanese when I transfer to university next year. I'm wondering if it might be more efficient to just study Japanese at home and choose a different (less demanding) minor). Two East Asian languages at the same time would be a lot. Especially considering that for the first year or so my Japanese classes will be 5 hours, in addition to my Chinese and Asian Studies coursework (history, literature, etc... many of which are writing/research intensive) and the odd general ed requirement here and there.

The problem is, I really want to learn Japanese, and (more relevant to my question) I also want it on my transcript when I start applying to grad schools. I think a major in Chinese with a minor in Japanese would look a lot more attractive, considering I'll be required to know Japanese for my PhD work.

However, in order for me to declare a minor, I only need to take 2 classes in residence (Second Year Japanese II and one third year class like advanced conversation, advanced reading, or Classical Japanese). So I'm thinking if I study Japanese at home, I should be able to test out of the first 1 1/2 to 2 years of Japanese and just take the last two classes my last year there. This would free up a lot of time (First Year Japanese 1 and 2 are 5 hours each, Second Year are 4 hours each) so I could take other classes that interest me, add another minor, or even just have the free time.

So my question is: do you think it's possible to major in Chinese (full time hours), study Japanese at home, work 20-25 hours per week, and not alienate my wife? The second year Japanese textbook is Yookoso 2, by the way. I obviously won't be able to do AJATT, but I will be getting as much exposure as possible, using the sentence method, etc. The placement test would not be until Aug 2011.

This may sound like a dumb question, but I've never taken university-level language courses before (except for Spanish I during my first bachelor's, but that was after I had taken 2 years of high school Spanish so it was a joke). Thanks in advance for the advice.

what race is your wife? if she speaks one of those 2 languages it would be nice practice... i think you could probably juggle both language classes ok... just dedicate 3/4s of your language study time to chinese while the other 1/4 to japanese. basic Japanese is not that complicated IMO

nah, don't start Chinese cus you don't care about stroke order

Hashiriya Wrote:what race is your wife? if she speaks one of those 2 languages it would be nice practice... i think you could probably juggle both language classes ok... just dedicate 3/4s of your language study time to chinese while the other 1/4 to japanese. basic Japanese is not that complicated IMO

Ha! She's American. I'm sure I could juggle both classes, but the big benefit would be the free time to take other classes, earn a little extra money, or whatever. I guess the question could be rephrased as: Do you think I could test out of 2 years (ish) of Japanese class by studying it on the side at home for 2 years, in addition to my other classes?

Musashi Wrote:nah, don't start Chinese cus you don't care about stroke order

I've already addressed your misunderstanding of what I said about stroke order in the other thread. Let's keep that discussion there. If you have anything helpful to add in this thread, I'm all ears. But first, read the thread. I'm not "starting" Chinese. I've been studying Chinese for quite a while.

IceCream Wrote:mm, i think its better to take your minor in the thing you like better, rather than something you think will be easier.

I might have been unclear on this. I'm not wanting to minor in something else instead of Japanese, or something easier. If anything, I want to add a second minor by not taking the first 3-4 semesters of Japanese, and then testing in and taking the last 2 semesters I need.

Quote:I don't know about your university, but most are pretty ok about changing what you study if you're finding it too difficult once you're there, especially with split degrees.
Also, lectures at many universities for arts or languages aren't mandatory, so you can choose to study japanese at home and attend other lectures that interest you whenever you want to too, and still have the minor in japanese at the end.

The attendance policy is pretty strict for the language classes. And again, I'm not worried about finding it too difficult, I'm more looking at the opportunity to take other classes that I wouldn't have time to, or just having some extra free time.

C'mon that was not seriously meant (hence the )

But I think it's what you want to do with it and achieve with it afterwards rather than what you would like to study just because you like it. I don't know how much it matters to your further studies if you take Chinese as you major and Japanese as a minor or vice versa, but I guess it might be better to choose which way is going to help you the most.

And it's difficult to answer a question like: "Do you think it's possible to major in Chinese (full time hours), study Japanese at home, work 20-25 hours per week..."
Since we don't know how you study and how easy it is for you to absorb languages. And Chinese and Japanese aren't the most easiest ones for western people already. :/ But seeing you have your work schedule, your wife, and taking all those other classes fulltime including literature, history etc. not to mention the actual two languages itself, that's gonna be a really busy schedule and it's probably gonna involve alienating your wife every now and then.

Musashi Wrote:C'mon that was not seriously meant (hence the )

Sometimes I'm a grumpy old bastard. Sorry about that.

Quote:But I think it's what you want to do with it and achieve with it afterwards rather than what you would like to study just because you like it. I don't know how much it matters to your further studies if you take Chinese as you major and Japanese as a minor or vice versa, but I guess it might be better to choose which way is going to help you the most.

And it's difficult to answer a question like: "Do you think it's possible to major in Chinese (full time hours), study Japanese at home, work 20-25 hours per week..."
Since we don't know how you study and how easy it is for you to absorb languages. And Chinese and Japanese aren't the most easiest ones for western people already. :/ But seeing you have your work schedule, your wife, and taking all those other classes fulltime including literature, history etc. not to mention the actual two languages itself, that's gonna be a really busy schedule and it's probably gonna involve alienating your wife every now and then.

Some good points there.

Again, I'm going to minor in Japanese one way or the other. That's not the issue. Japanese is a required language for every PhD program in Chinese Studies I've looked at, so I want to go ahead and learn it so I don't have to worry about it once I start grad school.

What I'm trying to figure out is if it's feasible to study Japanese on the side instead of in class, and then just take the last two classes that are actually required for the minor. I don't feel like I've been explaining the minor requirements well. You have to reach at least the 5th semester level in order to minor in Japanese, but only 2 courses are required to be in residence. So my 4th and 5th semester courses would have to actually be done at the university. I could earn credit by exam for the first 3 semesters if I study at home.

If I study Japanese at home for the first few semesters, I would have room to add additional minors in something like archaeology or art history. Both of these are things I'm interested in and may end up being useful in grad school, depending on what my specific area of research within Asian Studies ends up being.

I guess what I'm worried about is that I'll let Japanese fall by the wayside and then not be able to test out of the classes I need to test out of, and hence not be able to have Japanese as a minor. It doesn't seem like it would take too long to be able to meet the second year level requirements, but on the other hand I will be very busy and I'd have a more immediate motivator (GPA) to stay on top of Japanese if I were taking classes.

Thanks for the help so far guys.

bflatnine Wrote:

Musashi Wrote:C'mon that was not seriously meant (hence the )

Sometimes I'm a grumpy old bastard. Sorry about that.

I can be a pesky kid sometimes, sorry bout that

As for your question, I was going to say it would depend on how disciplined you are at self study, for me personally, taking actual classes would work best, I get distracted too often too easily. But since you already pointed out that taking classes would be a motivator and allow you to stay on top, I'd say take those classes, I mean, you're gonna spend that time studying it anyways, so it might as well be in class since itll give you a boost. Just make sure you don't swamp yourself cus it sounds like you're gonna get crazily busy

Just a quick post from my experience so far w/o reading all of the replies:

So I started out with basically hiragana and katakana with Japanese last year (around September) and through one year of very relaxed study, I am currently at the AP level, assuming your familiar with that. I took a practice test sponsored by my current Japanese teacher and earned a 5, which would skip me out of 1 1/2 years of Japanese at college. My method for learning was kind of an adaption of the AJATT method, minus all the immersion and just the sentences. I didn't even do RTK, (doing it right now) and learned Kanji as dictated by my textbook (Genki I and II). The first year of college Japanese shouldn't be too demanding and I think it would be easy to skip out.

Also, I know some people will question how objectively the AP Test may test Japanese skills, but I'll just run down what's on the test so you can form your own opinions.

Reading Comprehension
Listening Comprehension
Writing (typed responses to computer prompts)
Speaking (recorded voice responses to computer prompts)

I know what AP is but I don't know what level that would get you to. It's been a while since high school (this is my second bachelor's degree I'm working on, plus I worked several years in between). But I will say, for instance, 2 years of Japanese at Austin Community College is equivalent to one year at University of Texas (where I'll be), so levels aren't equal everywhere.

That said, from what I've found it looks like Genki II gets about as far as Yookoso 2. I really only need to get through about half of Yookoso 2 since I only need 3 semesters and that's as far as they get in that amount of time.

The more I think about it and look into it, the better idea it seems. I'll have the rest of this semester, next semester, all summer, and another whole year after that, so essentially 5 semesters to do 3 semesters of work. It seems pretty doable.

Plus, I'm really not even required to know Japanese until I'm 2 years into PhD work (when I take my general exams), so I definitely have some time. I can always take some Japanese classes if necessary during my master's. I definitely want to get it out of the way by the end of my master's since some PhD programs prefer applicants who already meet all the language requirements, but I've got plenty of time.

Thanks for the help, everyone. It helps to get it all written out so I can think more clearly about it.

bflatnine Wrote:If I study Japanese at home for the first few semesters, I would have room to add additional minors in something like archaeology or art history.

So if you take other the classes, when exactly would you study Japanese?

I'm majoring in chinese and minoring in japanese, classes just started. My schedule is really good, so I can spend like 4/5 hours studying per day (but so far I didn't lol), I study about 2 or 3 hours a day. I've studied more chinese because I have more stuff to study, since in japanese my class is still in the very basics, I've had 3 japanese classes and teachers already taught all the kanas, whcih I already know.

I also wake up at around 6 to study a bit. And to review RTK on Anki.

I don't know if you finished RTK, but I advise you to do it. It's being so fuckin useful in my mandarin chinese, I can write all the characters (except the simplified, wich are easy for someone who finished RTK).

I'm studying japanese at home, with Genki 1 (currently in lesson 12) and already have Genki 2 and an Integrated approach. So as you can see, I intend to study as much japanese as chinese.

Btw, I have 12 chinese hours and 4 japanese hours per week.

Hmmm this is kinda tricky and might be a little off topic... At the moment, how do you think majoring in Chinese and minoring in Japanese is going to help you in the future with employment etc?

I can fully understand why you would want a degree in this area (I did as well), but at the end of the day is it really want employers are looking for? What I mean is, do employers really care whether you have a degree in Chinese/Japanese, or only whether you can converse and understand it? And I know that having a degree that actually recognises this is probably important to you, but if you can teach yourself Japanese outside of university, and minor in something that will give you 'real world skills' that employers are looking for, maybe this is more beneficial (if there are such things). This was something I had to weigh up, and was the main reason I decide to go with a Bachelor of Business and choosing Japanese related courses for my electives. Once you graduate, yes, you will have awesome skills in Chinese and Japanese, as well as a good understanding of the history, culture, literature etc of each, but what other skills will you have? (Yes, I did see that you mention archaeology and art history as well.)

Also, realise that studying something that you love could possibly turn it into a chore for you, especially after endless stydy, assignments and exams. I speak from experience RE: the Japanese. Sometimes I can't be bother doing any self study, just as a result of my Japanese classes. But this is mainly because we have only done keigo for a whole year without focusing on, in my opinion, other important things such as general conversation skills etc.

Please don't take this the wrong way, it's just something to think about.

I can totally relate to OsakaDan, when I was studying Japanese in uni (already graduated in my major before), lot's of my fellow classmates only had that as a major and no other 'real world skills' whatsoever, I thought that was kinda strange why someone would only choose a language as a major (unless it's to become a translator or something) to me it seems like it's just a language study which is gonna assist your 'real skills'. So you graduate and know Chinese and Japanese, so what, a lot of people know a of couple languages. Even if you want to do business or trading etc. you'd rather major in that and study a language on the side. I think just knowing how to speak Japanese and not having other 'abilities' would seem (sorry to be so blunt) rather useless if you can't do anything besides that.

But I think I read somewhere in bflatnine's post that he already has a bachelors in something. So this new study would be on top of that right.

I don't get the whole argument about taking a real subject at degree level. I mean how exactly does it look better to employers? very few degrees actually prepare you for any kind of work you do. Maybe a business degree or a specific science degree, but an English Literature, or Maths ? They are just subjects. Having a degree related to the field of work you will go into will help yes, but its not the be all and end all. You will still need training, cos apparently sitting around the university library with your headphones in half asleep for 4 years doesn't quite prepare you for a proper job no matter what people tell you. Useful degree or not.

Musashi Wrote:I can totally relate to OsakaDan, when I was studying Japanese in uni (already graduated in my major before), lot's of my fellow classmates only had that as a major and no other 'real world skills' whatsoever, I thought that was kinda strange why someone would only choose a language as a major (unless it's to become a translator or something) to me it seems like it's just a language study which is gonna assist your 'real skills'. So you graduate and know Chinese and Japanese, so what, a lot of people know a of couple languages. Even if you want to do business or trading etc. you'd rather major in that and study a language on the side. I think just knowing how to speak Japanese and not having other 'abilities' would seem (sorry to be so blunt) rather useless if you can't do anything besides that.

But I think I read somewhere in bflatnine's post that he already has a bachelors in something. So this new study would be on top of that right.

Oh yeah, I just saw that then at the bottom of the opening post. I guess it is not really a problem then, but for someone doing their first degree or who only intends to study one degree, it could be more of an issue.........

But it's definitely important to make yourself as appealing as you can when it comes to getting a job and 'beating' the competition. And I agree with you Musashi, like if Person X speaks English natively and studied Japanese at university and is now fluent, it's unlikely they would be selected over Person Y who is bilingual (Japanese family for instance) but has a degree that is more sought after or relevant to the position (management/engineering/economics etc.) or even Person Z with the relevant degree, but who taught themselves the language and has a fairly knowledgable understanding of it.

Gingerninja Wrote:I don't get the whole argument about taking a real subject at degree level. I mean how exactly does it look better to employers?

You work for a financial organisation. Would you rather employee a graduate who has a Bachelors in Language XXX, or a graduate who studied business, marketing, finance etc etc and can also speak another language? (if all things are equal)

@Gingerninja
Well let's say you want to become a doctor, studying in that direction would be obvious and the thing to do right. It's that simple.
What company is gonna hire you if you didn't study for the job/field you're gonna work in. No company training is gonna fix that for you. And there are people who actually use that time and 4 years not sleeping in the library hehe

Not every company is gonna offer you training so don't take it for granted. Training costs a company's money and they rather not spend that if you possess the skills required for the job already anyways. Otherwise you'd see people dropping out of college and hopping over to companies because they provide all the training needed to become a succesfull lawyer anyways, not.

In today's society you won't cut it with just skill A only, you gotta be multifunctional, 'just-knowing-how-to-speak-a-language' is nice and all, but you can't win the competition. And you do realise we're in a recession period huh. The time to stand out from the rest is more important now than ever. Unless you want to become a paperboy, no training or study is required, though you probably have to compete with the smart-next-door-neighbor's-kid.

Edit: OsakaDan beat me to it haha

avparker, I don't really understand your question. I thought I made that clear. I'd study Japanese at home in my free time. Elective classes and a few art history classes aren't going to take up that much time.

OsakaDan, like I said above, I'm going for an MA and a PhD in Chinese once I finish my BA, so obviously I'm going for a career in academia. My "employable skills" are research and writing. I did the business thing for several years (I was in management). I have no intention of going back.

Oh yeah. I was in management with a bachelor's degree in music. Figure that one out.

I think taking both at the same time is definitely doable, however college scheduling is such a pain in the rear thanks to overlapping time blocks. I'd say take the Japanese classes whenever you can, as long as they don't prevent you from taking other (beides Chinese) classes. If it's only for the paper value then you shouldn't let it interfere with you taking classes where you may actually learn something.

And good luck with Chinese.
I took some mandarin myself, and I loved it to death.
The grammar is closer to English than Japanese, but it uses a lot of vocab that has parallels in Japanese. So as an English speaker who knows some Japanese (and Korean) Chinese was like the perfect lovechild language to me.

ocircle Wrote:I think taking both at the same time is definitely doable, however college scheduling is such a pain in the rear thanks to overlapping time blocks. I'd say take the Japanese classes whenever you can, as long as they don't prevent you from taking other (beides Chinese) classes. If it's only for the paper value then you shouldn't let it interfere with you taking classes where you may actually learn something.

And good luck with Chinese.
I took some mandarin myself, and I loved it to death.
The grammar is closer to English than Japanese, but it uses a lot of vocab that has parallels in Japanese. So as an English speaker who knows some Japanese (and Korean) Chinese was like the perfect lovechild language to me.

I never asked if taking both at the same time was doable. I know it is. And it isn't only for "paper value." Like I said, I really want to learn Japanese, plus it will be essential to my research in grad school. But I also do want it to be on paper for when I start applying to grad school.

As an aside, the more I think about what I want to do research in when I get to grad school, the more I think I want to do something on 漢字 use and adaptation across different languages (different Chinese languages/dialects, Japanese, old Korean and Vietnamese, etc.). Really interesting stuff. Next semester I'll be taking a course called "Why Chinese Has No Alphabet." Should be fun.

I'm majoring in mandarin and japanese because it's what I love and where I live (portugal) there's no people that con speak those languages. My course only started 5 years ago, each class has 25 students and usually only half of those continue on the course. There's only one grade that has graduated. So yeah, that's why

Now in the US...I imagine there a lot of people already knowing those languages.

bflatnine Wrote:But I also do want it to be on paper for when I start applying to grad school.

Perhaps you can find something else to emphasize your involvement with the Japanese language. Sadly, all I can think of is the JET programme (as a CIR, not an ALT. ... even though the chances of being accepted as a CIR are slim) and companies like Interac, AEON... etc. For Chinese though, you could look into Teachers without Borders (http://www.teacherswithoutborders.org/).

ocircle Wrote:

bflatnine Wrote:But I also do want it to be on paper for when I start applying to grad school.

Perhaps you can find something else to emphasize your involvement with the Japanese language. Sadly, all I can think of is the JET programme (as a CIR, not an ALT. ... even though the chances of being accepted as a CIR are slim) and companies like Interac, AEON... etc. For Chinese though, you could look into Teachers without Borders (http://www.teacherswithoutborders.org/).

I need ability in the language, not experience in the country. I do plan on doing a semester abroad in China though.

If I were to try to get some credential saying I can speak Japanese rather than minoring in it, I would probably go for the JLPT since it seems to be well recognized. However, since I'll be applying to grad school, it would probably be more useful to demonstrate an academic background in the language, hence why I want to minor in it.

OsakaDan Wrote:You work for a financial organisation. Would you rather employee a graduate who has a Bachelors in Language XXX, or a graduate who studied business, marketing, finance etc etc and can also speak another language? (if all things are equal)

Problem being, not every job in the world is so cut and shut. Take degree A get job A. If it was everyone would be doing it.
That's also a very bad example, if I worked for a translation company then why would I hire someone with a degree in business over someone who speaks another language?
Financial Jobs obviously need financial qualifications. (well actually judging by how messed up the economy is at the moment, you tell me how great those qualifications are.. great idea lend loads of money to people who can't pay us back ! brilliant why didn't I think of it sooner) I very much doubt the people doing business degree's will apply for the same job types as those with language degree's anyway. Unless its at the supermarket because they are both unemployed.

Public relations job requires a different skill set again.

There are no right and wrong degrees, all it shows is you managed to get through university without making a knob of yourself. It shows you are up to that level of work and responsibility. How you then present yourself after it is what lands you the jobs. Some qualifications are tailored more towards a specific job type, but they are not guarantees that's the job they will land you in.
I have a friend with a degree in mechanical engineering, fairly specific to a job right? well no.. he's a sales rep.

Gingerninja Wrote:Problem being, not every job in the world is so cut and shut. Take degree A get job A. If it was everyone would be doing it.
That's also a very bad example, if I worked for a translation company then why would I hire someone with a degree in business over someone who speaks another language?
Financial Jobs obviously need financial qualifications. (well actually judging by how messed up the economy is at the moment, you tell me how great those qualifications are.. great idea lend loads of money to people who can't pay us back ! brilliant why didn't I think of it sooner) I very much doubt the people doing business degree's will apply for the same job types as those with language degree's anyway. Unless its at the supermarket because they are both unemployed.

Public relations job requires a different skill set again.

There are no right and wrong degrees, all it shows is you managed to get through university without making a knob of yourself. It shows you are up to that level of work and responsibility. How you then present yourself after it is what lands you the jobs. Some qualifications are tailored more towards a specific job type, but they are not guarantees that's the job they will land you in.
I have a friend with a degree in mechanical engineering, fairly specific to a job right? well no.. he's a sales rep.

Sorry, reading your post makes me wonder if your actually ever applied for a job successfully (and I don't mean flipping burgers at Wendy's).

Gingerninja Wrote:if I worked for a translation company then why would I hire someone with a degree in business over someone who speaks another language?

I don't know if you wrote it as a joke or not but DUH, ofcourse, in this case studying that language would lie in the field you'd work in. You don't study to become a classical musician in order to apply for a dentist job afterwards (I've yet to see what company would provide training to fix that).

"There are no right and wrong degrees, all it shows is you managed to get through university without making a knob of yourself." <--- I'm rolling my eyes.

Yes there are exceptions, but not everyone has the ability to study to become a sushi-chef and then actually turning into a lawyer. I'm not surprised by your way of thinking since you already pointed out that you slept for 4 years in the uni library. You can present yourself with a big red bow and a cake, if you aint got the ability no company door is gonna open for you (company training provided or not).

And your friend the sales rep (no offense to all sales reps), that's a job lot's of people can do, honestly sales reps don't need that high education. Try studying for a sales rep instead and then apply for a mechanical engineering job see how that fares. This is just plain common sense.

WT... who removed the last sentence? Don't tell me Kazelee...