The Japanese sentence '愛する家族のために、私は毎日、朝から夜遅くまで働いています' obviously contains a main clause that is pretty straightforward to me: I work everyday from morning until late night. But the subordinate clause is giving me some pause for thought, particularly since two native speakers who are pretty decent English speakers want to add a lot more to the translation than I do.

Essentially, they are saying that 愛する家族 contains essential concepts such as 'providing a comfortable life', which while perhaps implied, I would not put into a translated sentence in this case. (The wordy-if-not-redundant "family members" was also suggested, and I don't think that works very well, but it's not outright wrong of course.) The two native speakers finally agreed upon: "I work from morning until late night every day to provide a comfortable life for my family members because I love them." It's way over the top IMHO. But they feel 愛する家族 contains these subtle concepts, so they need to be in the translation.

I think a simple and straightforward subordinate clause like "Because I love my family" (or some very close variant) works just fine. Wrapping my brain around 愛する家族 is what is giving me the problem.

Anyone?

how about "in order to support the family I love I work every day from morning until late at night"

Makes perfect sense to me.

I would translate that as: "I work everyday, day and night to [support the people I love] [my loved ones] [my family]."

mezbup Wrote:how about "in order to support the family I love I work every day from morning until late at night"

Makes perfect sense to me.

It does make pretty good sense (although I'd probably cut "in order" off the front of it).

I don't have any problem with FB's ideas, either. I just don't know if my problem is with that 愛する家族 or with expanding my ideas about how much I can stretch ...のために from a simple "[to] [for] [because]".

Obliged.

For the sake of my loving family....

愛する in 愛する家族 sort of modifies the noun 家族. Well that's what I feel when I read it. So I read it as "The family that I love" or "the family whom I love" or even My family whom i love.

And As for the the のために part, I never really knew when it is "for the sake of" vs "because" vs others, vs nothing. I haven't really read enough things involving it.

For my dearest family I work every day from morning to late at night.

I agree with your Japanese coworkers to some degree. The problem with saying support is it sounds like this person is working only enough to support them. But the Japanese sentence sounds like this person is working until late to give them as comfortable a life as possible, beyond what is necessary for their immediate needs.

However, it also depends on the context this sentence is in. There is also going to be some loss in translation. I wouldn't say "To give the family that I love a life as comfortable as possible, I work everyday from morning to late at night." because it just sounds stupid, there needs to be some middle ground

English and Japanese are two different languages to state the obvious, but something that might not be immediately obvious is that people who grow up speaking english and people who grow up speaking japanese grow up from two different view points or value systems if you like.

the 愛する家族 part plays a big part in this sentence, it shows that family isn't just a family but its the family you love. Hence why you're going out of your way to provide for them.

All in all it was never really meant to be an English sentence so it wont sound that good in English because no one would probably say something that way in English.

In English we'd probably say "I work really hard to support my family". Or something like that... but if you approach if from a whole different perspective through another language you may say something like '愛する家族のために、私は毎日、朝から夜遅くまで働いています'.

Are they the same thing? Essentially yes. However, the difference lies in whether you want to translate and leave it at that or translate and then localize.

mezbup Wrote:English and Japanese are two different languages to state the obvious, but something that might not be immediately obvious is that people who grow up speaking english and people who grow up speaking japanese grow up from two different view points or value systems if you like.

the 愛する家族 part plays a big part in this sentence, it shows that family isn't just a family but its the family you love. Hence why you're going out of your way to provide for them.

All in all it was never really meant to be an English sentence so it wont sound that good in English because no one would probably say something that way in English.

In English we'd probably say "I work really hard to support my family". Or something like that... but if you approach if from a whole different perspective through another language you may say something like '愛する家族のために、私は毎日、朝から夜遅くまで働いています'.

Are they the same thing? Essentially yes. However, the difference lies in whether you want to translate and leave it at that or translate and then localize.

I liked your comments. Thanks.

Interesting to me here is that the sentence in question (and your explanation) seems to be a reversal of the normal state of affairs: Japanese do not state the high-context obvious (I love my family) and English speakers usually spell it out (but not here, since "for my family" certainly implies "because I love my family" in English).

Maybe my real question should have been:

What's the difference, if any, between 愛する家族のために、私は毎日、朝から夜遅くまで働いています and just 家族のために、私は毎日、朝から夜遅くまで働いています? I suppose the second version could imply some "other" family that one did not love, but that sounds like a stretch to me.

I guess it just comes down to including redundant information?

Yeah, for a nation founded upon Confucian principles, you'd better be in love with your family, otherwise the filial piety king will come and whoop yo ass.

Which reminds me of this for some reason

Wally Wrote:What's the difference, if any, between 愛する家族のために、私は毎日、朝から夜遅くまで働いています and just 家族のために、私は毎日、朝から夜遅くまで働いています? I suppose the second version could imply some "other" family that one did not love, but that sounds like a stretch to me. smile

愛する家族のために sounds like a romantic person. Is generally implicit that one loves one's family, so specifically stating it makes it sound stronger. This is why the meaning is carried beyond just "to support" and into "I want them to be so happy and not have to toil"

家族のために to me sounds like this working person is disillusioned after working so long and hard for so many years of his/her family. It is a simple sentence, but that fact that it is being said means it carries a special meaning.