Ok, I'm going to get philosophical on yo ass.

Looking at the Survey - Where are you at? thread I got the feeling that many people are approaching Japanese in a die hard fashion, much as I did. Now I think this is the wrong way.

My focus on Japanese came out of a time in my life when I had very little self confidence and Japanese was something of an outlet. A big part of going to live in Japan was because I was (more or less) socially unsuccessful in my home country of Australia.

In Japan, I took my level of Japanese very personally. If I failed at something, I would feel that I was not ok as a person. Sometimes I would speak to someone in Japanese and they would respond in English. I got angry with them (and myself) because I felt they were implying that my Japanese wasn't as good as their English, or that it (and by extension me) were not ok. People would sometimes compliment me and I knew they were just being nice and would get angry. I was very touchy about it (whilst pretending not to be).

Strangely as my Japanese got better, rather than relax and feel good about it, I generally felt worse. I reached the level where in many interactions I am no different from a native speaker. Knowing I could do this, my focus became performing to this level in all situations. I would focus not on the person I was speaking to, or what I am saying, just on sounding native and impressing the person I was speaking to (and getting them to like me). I became more rigid in following social Japanese protocol than most Japanese people just so people would know that I knew and could do it. EG always use keigo with new people so they wont assume I only know the casual speech.

When I failed to be native like, or made some mistake I would feel horrible. Plus underneath all this I just didn't respect myself for trying to impress/make people like me essentially through manipulation.

Now I am much better. Coming back to Australia gave me the air I needed to clear my head. I still learn just as much as ever (well, will once I start my new job and no longer need to prepare for it, I am more motivated if anything), but I don't worry about it so much. I let it be more fun. It's not like I am immune to the issues I had before, I still care what Japanese people think of my Japanese. However, I now relax more and made the choice not to focus on impressing them anymore.

Learning and knowing Japanese is all and good, but I think it's important to be aware if you:

- are using it as a way to avoid dealing with problems.
- have a link between your Japanese level and worth as a human being.

Your personal issues aren't going to go away by going to Japan or becoming awesome at Japanese. If you have serious personal issues, learning Japanese in a way that doesn't allow you to avoid growing up/around them is likely to lead to better things for you. In particular, be mindful if you are either using Japanese to avoid challenging situations (I won't go to the party that may make me anxious, I will do immersion instead) or you are thinking things will be good/ok once I get good at Japanese/go to Japan. (There is a famous quote: "Wherever you are in the world, there you are.")

So, to sum up, I think it is a golden rule of doing something that you don't hurt yourself and you don't put off much more important things. Your self-esteem, personal development and happiness are much much more important than your Japanese level.

(I can recommend books and approaches for becoming happier if any are interested)

(Incidentally I am pretty happy now, but quite stressed about starting a new job in a couple of days)

Very well-written, thermal.

That was an extremely honest and straightforward posting. I hope that I can learn to be that introspective in my own thinking... In any case I, and I'm sure everyone else wishes you the best in your future endeavors, whatever that may be.

Thanks for this wonderful post
It will help a lot of people, I'm sure
The summer 08 for me had a lot of the situation that you explained...Not going there, not doing that for the japanese's sake?!
Everybody luckily grow with experiences

I think that a lot of what you describe is particular to living in a foreign country, and then perhaps particular to living as a foreign-born person in Japan. My sense is that people here are almost never out to do you wrong, despite what may look on the surface like discriminatory, condescending, or otherwise unfavorable treatment. It takes a long time to get around that. Maybe to some extent you don't get over it, you just have to find a way through it.

I have felt and done almost all of the things you mention here in the year that I have been in Japan thus far. I have *very* slowly learned to not take it personally when someone doesn't answer me in Japanese or assumes I can't speak/understand/write etc. It's all part of the journey.

The best advice I ever got about not liking being complimented on my Japanese came from a Japanese person - "Well buddy, it's never going to stop happening, so you'll just have to get used to it." It's true - and it extends to other things like being watched as I walk down the street, "impolite" or presumptuous questioning from some people, and a lot of the other things we all find more or less disagreeable. What's going to be more likely to change - my attitude, or are Japanese people as a whole just going to suddenly become more sensitive to my perspective, my wants, and my needs? The answer is obvious, but it took me a long time and a lot of headache to reach this conclusion.

On that note, I used to read Debito.org (I'm sure many of you are familiar with Debito Arudou) for political and social commentary, but I tried an experiment: I stopped reading it altogether, and within a week my outlook on living here did what felt like a 180. I couldn't have let myself arrive at the aforementioned conclusions if I was always bombarding myself and feeding my insecurities with that particular perspective on Japan. The same goes for listening to other foreigners' stories about their hardships or all of the "injustices" done to them: I just don't do it, insofar as it's possible. Reason being that when you hear a story that hits so close to home for you, you live it out in your mind - you experience yourself for a moment as the foreigner being denied the apartment, being stopped by the police, constantly proving your Japanese ability, being derided at work, and having people get up when you sit down on the subway. Once I realized the dangers of carrying around the collective baggage of all foreigners in Japan, I think I became empowered to deal with my own situation with a clearer mind and a sense of humor and humility. Criticism is great, informed constructivism trumps all.

For most of us here, this has a lot to do with language ability. We cannot be full adult members in Japan until we are literate, and we absorb a lot of really intense motivation to learn from the challenges we face every day. That's good, but it needs to be tempered with a good-natured sense of humor and a humble willingness to meet others (and yourself?) as they are, warts and all, and still find a way to thrive in spite of obstacles.

You mentioned the danger of thinking that things will be better when you get good at Japanese or go to Japan. I think you are completely on target here. We language learners who are enthusiastic about a foreign culture spend a lot of time imagining things that have not yet come to pass. We try to systematize and plan and calculate to find a way through the fog between here and there. We are, more than anything, often impatient, and hence try to treat ourselves like machines - this is, in my opinion, is why we see so many threads here about "do super amount of x in face-melting y amount of time". This is so symptomatic of our 現代状況. Perhaps there is legitimate interest in testing the limits of human language learning. However, I really think that there's a true danger in this attitude, because people are mistaking a few convenient shortcuts for the big picture. Those posts are NOT about making it through one book, one set of information, because the attitude doesn't stop there - it leads to posts like "x month(s) to JLPT 1" and then "how long to fluency?"

I've digressed (and hijacked your *excellent* thread name - 日本語より自分 - to a slightly different end), but what I found appealing about your post was that you are also encouraging people to see the bigger, long-term picture in language learning, and that's really solid advice that a lot of us would do well to heed. If we can manage to keep our methods moderated and sustainable and our perspectives fresh for the LONG haul we can't help but succeed, both now and then.

I must say that thermal and coverup they were both excellent and insightful posts. But I feel like lately there has been a lot of unwarranted criticism of the "how much can I do in as short a time as possible" approach some of us take here (and I'm definitely one of the biggest proponents of this approach, so...guilty as charged ).

I approach Japanese in a "die-hard fashion" (to quote thermal) simply because I love learning. Its as simple as that. I plan to go on exchange to Japan for a semester, maybe see if I can go on a working holiday for a year or so after Uni. But thats pretty much the extent of it. My driving motivation is simply because I love to learn, and I love languages, and I love challenges.

So yes, if you let these things define your own self worth that is a bad situation to be in. But I certainly don't think all of us ['fast-pace learners'] are like that, as I think we are sometimes characterised whenever one of these "X Job in Y days" thread inevitably pops up.

EDIT: And I don't mean to imply at all that you were necessarily making those sorts of characterisations thermal. I thought your post was very insightful and very well thought out. I was just putting forward another side to the issue.

There is no wrong way to approach language study. Every person should approach it as they feel like, instead of thinking there's a 'correct' way. It's a natural move to transition from 'intense study' to 'free learning'. Everyone does this transition when they are ready for it.

blackmacros, I think I understand a little better where you're coming from now, so thanks for clarifying. However I still think that although the die-hard attitude has a 50/50 chance of being effective on a couple of short term projects, it is not a sustainable study habit and doesn't warrant the amount of speculation and attention that it gets here. They always follow a formula - someone posts a topic with a "provocative" title ending in a question mark, a super short post that basically just says "do ya think it's possible??", and then people crunch stats and say "well if you can be this superheroic at this rate, then it's feasible". Why doesn't anyone ever say "50 mangas in one week?" or "50 novels in a year- is it possible?" or "100 conversations in a week?" My guess is that it's because real Japanese is muddy and funky, and doesn't give you more than a hazy impression of how well you're doing. People keep believing to some extent in compulsively assessing themselves on a canned-input vs. short time scale that is ultimately misleading and failure-prone. I feel kind of bad for farting all over thermal's nice post with this tangent though - I'd like to discuss this with you more on the "RTK in a Week?" thread One thing that's for sure is that we are all super-stoked about learning Japanese - so nothing bad there.

Anyway, what I liked about thermal's post - he is bringing attention to the big things that will matter long after you finish RTK in a week or JLPT 1 in two months. I can't tell other people what's ultimately valuable for them or not, but I saw a lot of insight and maturity in what he said about the relationship between learning Japanese and your identity as a person, which is always a long-term and slowly developing project.

EDIT: just saw wccrawford's post and thought of some more jazz, over to another thread.

Interesting post, you make some good points, and can see where you're coming from from a personal perspective. Do I use it as a distraction? Yes, I think, probably, but then it's at least a goal to work towards. The quote: "Wherever you are in the world, there you are" is very true, but I kinda think, since I'm not exactly going to be the life-and-soul of the party kind of person whatever I'm doing, may as well learn Japanese. Obsessively. ; )
I suppose I also want to make sure I make the most of what free time I have, and I'm sure others feel the same way. I've got a year as a MA student, so am never going to have more free time to devote to it than now. When I can read, however painstakingly, I'll relax a bit.
Not really knowing what progress you're making does probably encourage it, since then setting targets gives you something concrete to work for.

Glad to hear you're more confident now.

Edit: Good point Ice Cream - that it worked for thermal to become fluent doesn't exactly discourage a die hard attitude! I guess it necessitates something of that, you're trying to relearn practically everything in another language.

thermal Wrote:Ok, I'm going to get philosophical on yo ass.

Looking at the Survey - Where are you at? thread I got the feeling that many people are approaching Japanese in a die hard fashion, much as I did. Now I think this is the wrong way.

*annoying walkie talkie sound* "Where you at?" *annoying walkie talkie sound*

thermal Wrote:Learning and knowing Japanese is all and good, but I think it's important to be aware if you:

- are using it as a way to avoid dealing with problems.
- have a link between your Japanese level and worth as a human being.

First, thanks a LOT for your honesty and for your will to share your personal experience with us, indeed we have to look at the big picture from time to time and prioritize things in our life.

I'd like to congratulate you on working your way out of that way of thinking, it's a good thing that you learned from that experience, sometimes we don't learn from what we experience and keep ourselves living stressed, I'm sure that you are thinking now "How did I used to think that way?"

And well said buddy, good luck on your new job

For me, I always try to ask myself (and answer) what brings happiness to my life, or how can I be happy, and it always brings good results.

coverup Wrote:What's going to be more likely to change - my attitude, or are Japanese people as a whole just going to suddenly become more sensitive to my perspective, my wants, and my needs? The answer is obvious,

I'd like to add, "The world doesn't change, what changes is how we look at it"

coverup Wrote:and having people get up when you sit down on the subway.

This is not the first time I read about this. I don't know why but I want to try it Maybe it shows how some people have small thinkin

IceCream Wrote:Ampharos, i meant that it's great that something good came out of a bad way of doing things. Not that a die hard perspective is good because of that.

I know, just kidding, sorry. ; )

Think the 'social gene' gave me a miss, somehow. Natural ひきこもり (and happy enough like that) here, hmm.

Absolutely agree that you need to enjoy it now, that's very important I think. Of course, that's also why I'm doing Japanese and not getting a head start on Latin for the MA as I perhaps ought to...

Psh, you're on the computer, you're clearly all virtual people.
Heh, yep, if my department is anything to go by, most Latin speakers are not exactly great conversationalists, even those who haven't been dead for 600+ years... Still, don't think people in Medieval Studies are exactly required to be outgoing, so should be safe there.

There is no right or wrong way to approach Japanese. Japanese, in itself, is purely a goal. Whether you approach it in a die hard or traditional fashion, you are only working towards that goal either successfully or unsuccessfully.

Now, thermal seems to be talking about what place that goal (Japanese) should hold in our lives. That *is* philosophical, indeed...

I think that, in the end, this topic is really only addressing the issue of the meaning or purpose of life.

In taking to this issue, we should all remember that this goal that we're all talking about is merely a certain method of communication. The process of attaining the goal (fluency in Japanese) might be fun or fulfilling in some (nerdy?) way, but the goal is still only communication. I'm hoping this is more than just my opinion (though it may not be), but I don't think that communication, in and of itself, is fulfilling in any way. Sure, there are many, many goals that you can work towards via communication (relationships, etc), but the bare process of communication isn't really fulfilling.

And if you aren't being satisfied through the communication skills that you already have (i.e. English, Swahili, Swedish, French, etc), then there's not very much chance that you'll be satisfied via "just one more language!..." The problem is probably something else. Maybe you'll gain access to a new culture, but, meh, people are people wherever you go, so I'd think about that a bit before you engage in the process of acquiring more communication skills.

Finally, returning to the "purpose of life" thing, whatever your "big goal" in life is (or whatever you think life's purpose is), remember that the bare thing of communication is only a tool. Just like a hammer, pencil, sword, fishing pole, or computer (ironically, old people always forget that that last one is only a tool -- I hate that :/), communication is a tool. So use it for good, okay

Thanks for the responses guys.

coverup,

That was a very interesting post. I very much agree with you. I approached Japan as a new start and the chance to outgrow my insecurities. This happened to some degree, but ultimately I didn't make many close friends. I blamed Japanese culture, which was indeed part of it, but now I see that my own inability to deal with that culture which isn't going to change anytime soon was more responsible.

For example, my Japanese friends wouldn't make fun of me. They would give each other shit and have a lot of fun doing it, but I was always praised and respected (I often felt like an ambassador from Australia). I felt left out and not treated as one of the gang which made me often not relax. They sensed this and would generally respond by being more respectful.

I left Japan thinking, man it's too hard to make close friendships here, but now I realise that this isn't quite the case. I come from a very multicultural background and don't feel intimidated by them, but they are different. If I can be secure in myself and not be phased by their cultural anxiety, I can not react and kill the chance of a close friendship. Sadly it took more maturity than I had at the time.

It's strange though. People do things that you would react negatively to in your home country, but you have to look at the big picture. They do these things because they don't know any better (nor should they), but you know their culture and your own so need to be the one to allow them to be themselves, even when it rubs you up the wrong way.

blackmacros,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there is anything wrong with studying a lot. By die hard I mean an attitude of "I must become awesome!" or "everything will be good once i am awesome at Japanese/in Japan". If you are happy with yourself and your direction in life, then doing a lot of study is a great thing for your goal of becoming great at Japanese.

It is more when you use Japanese as a way to avoid your self assessment of yourself. "I don't think much of myself, so I will avoid this by judging myself by what I do/my achievements. If I am better than other people then that makes me ok right?". Or putting your study ahead of more pressing things.

For example, whilst I was in Japan one of my major groups of friend in Australia went their separate ways. I now find I have less friends and need to make more. I also am taking JLPT level 1 in December. Now I am actually quite happy now, so I may allow myself to put study ahead of friends for a while, but I know that in the long term I can't keep this up. I could dive into my studies to avoid the scariness of making new friends, but I know that this is just avoidance of something much more important to my life.

So basically it is all about the tone of your study. Yours sounds like "Man Japanese is awesome! studying is awesome! I wanna do this heaps!" which is great. If it was "I'm so worthless and lonely. I'll just keep studying and then go to Japan because I can't deal with my current life situation. Things will be good once I am good and in Japan" then its not so great. (I don't mean to imply anything with this, I have no idea why you are all studying, but I was like this to some degree).

IceCream,

Nice posts. I totally agree with you. Have you read "The power of NOW" by Eckhart Tolle? It is a book on exactly what you are talking about.

Ampharos64,

Good luck with it. Obviously you are the best person to judge if you are using Japanese or Japan as a crutch. Like I said to blackmacros, there is nothing inherently wrong with studying/doing immersion like crazy.

igordesu,

Nice post!

Wow thermal (and other posters too), thanks for the posts/topic. I think many people can relate in some way to what you have experienced, and it can be a profound thing for someone to receive the gift of shared experience, especially someone who is in a negative self esteem mental/emotional state. We often are but don't realize it, and take extreme measures to avoid that pain.

For myself, I understand from a personal perspective as well. I have had quite a bit of introspection on this journey that is "japanese" and how it all relates to my own happiness. And basically had come to very similar conclusions (that are ever evolving). When I began studying Japanese I was in a lot of emotional pain, and though Japanese was at first an "escape", it was very healing for me. It gave me an intellectual drive/direction that really was needed, and along the way I discovered many hidden things that were related to my self esteem (and many other things as well). I think the key is to be truthful to yourself, and to try to understand your motivations in life. By doing this you gain more clarity, and can find greater purpose and self harmony.

I just re-started RTK from the beginning, after finishing in April-then "loosing" a good portion with two and a half month summer break. And I must say I am a completely different person in my approach to everything. Before I was in the "get it done fast" mindset, and always thinking about how long it would take to become fluent, wanting to go to Japan, etc. Now I am really just enjoying it, and I'm not analyzing, stressing, quantifying, or focused only on the goal. I think that there is no substitute for experience, and having been in that place before, I have a better perspective about the whole thing, and feel much more relaxed, confident, and happy.

I have come to love learning Japanese, the journey of learning, and the changes it has facilitated in my life. What I love about these forums is the true spirit of support, and the many forms that takes. Hearing your story could very well change a persons life my friend!

TaylorSan,

Nice post! I also found that whilst I initially and for a long time approached it in the wrong way, it was something of a precursor to being able to approach it in the right way, as something fun that has a nourishing effect on my life.

IceCream,

Thank you, that was useful for me. I agree with pretty much everything you say. However, I think thinking is more of a symptom than a cause. It allows you to avoid the emotion of the moment and to attempt to minimise damage to yourself through the misguided use of your intellect. It is also the mechanism via which we can avoid facing our pain and fear. We can keep constantly on edge and busy with thoughts to stop the emotions we are afraid of from reaching us.

I think that unresolved issues and unfaced emotions are the cause that set people down this path of avoidance. That being said, stopping thinking does cause our issues/emotions to rise to the surface allowing them to be dealt with so it is a way to heal ourselves in my opinion. Other ways involve doing things we fear which can put old judgments about ourselves to rest.

Again, The power of NOW is exactly what you are talking about. I also have a strong aversion to self help books BTW, but there are some gems. (The power of NOW is quite extreme though and I'm not sure I take it quite as far as the author).

IceCream Wrote:things are never that simple are they?

Sorry if this sounds off-topic or even stupid, but that sentence seems to draw most of my attention in this topic, it's a true fact that things can be far more complicated, really.

Do I sound negative now? Maybe I should look at things in a far more simple way But still that fact is true, lol

The clear answer here is learning Japanese to do Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy purely in Japanese!