bodhisamaya Wrote:

masaman Wrote:The question is, how un-privileged Japanese natives need to be to only know 500 Kanji? At the end of 3rd grade, pupils are taught about 500 Kanji. I have a list of vocabulary words for American grade school kids, and here are some from the list for 4th graders.

ability, abnormal, abuse, accelerate, accept, acceptance, accident, accidental, accomplish, account, accurate, acquaintance, action, active, activity, addend, adequate, adjacent, adjust, admire

You have to be reeeally unprivileged to not know most of these words, don't you think?

Haha. I can't type a third of those words without spell-check. What is addend?
Yep, I grew up in Arkansas

Some of the grade school stuff are kind of hard eh? Actually, I'm really bad at writing Kanji and can't write most of 常用漢字... I can probably write several hundreds, possibly dozens, so I'd have agreed with him if he said a lot of people can only 'write' 500 properly.

By the way, why is Arkansas pronounced Arkansaw？ It drives me crazy. English speaking people must be stressed because of this spelling thing

bodhisamaya Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:Wow. Because when someone has a different opinion from the rest, he's obviously trolling. :roll eyes:

Now I'm starting wish "I" could delete posts here.

It's not just an opinion. It's downright insulting. To claim Japanese university students don't even know 500 kanji? It would be equivalent to an Asian guy claiming Americans can't multiply numbers beyond 3 on the 九九 table without a calculator (assuming he is not in Mississippi).

Nooo. Kanji and numbers are two different things man. Once you know those ten digits the possibilities are endless. Now if they said most american don't know algebra, that would make a little more sense (but be untrue).

MasaM Wrote:The question is, how un-privileged Japanese natives need to be to only know 500 Kanji? At the end of 3rd grade, pupils are taught about 500 Kanji. I have a list of vocabulary words for American grade school kids, and here are some from the list for 4th graders.

ability, abnormal, abuse, accelerate, accept, acceptance, accident, accidental, accomplish, account, accurate, acquaintance, action, active, activity, addend, adequate, adjacent, adjust, admire

You have to be reeeally unprivileged to not know most of these words, don't you think?

There's a difference between knowing a word and knowing the Kanji for a word. No one's saying the Japanese have a vocabulary of 500 words. That's absurd. But the fact is most Americans probably can't spell all those words correctly.

Spelling's a bitch in any language. If schools were smarter we'd be better at it.

ropsta Wrote:

bodhisamaya Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:Wow. Because when someone has a different opinion from the rest, he's obviously trolling. :roll eyes:

Now I'm starting wish "I" could delete posts here.

It's not just an opinion. It's downright insulting. To claim Japanese university students don't even know 500 kanji? It would be equivalent to an Asian guy claiming Americans can't multiply numbers beyond 3 on the 九九 table without a calculator (assuming he is not in Mississippi).

Nooo. Kanji and numbers are two different things man. Once you know those ten digits the possibilities are endless. Now if they said most american don't know algebra, that would make a little more sense (but be untrue).

MasaM Wrote:The question is, how un-privileged Japanese natives need to be to only know 500 Kanji? At the end of 3rd grade, pupils are taught about 500 Kanji. I have a list of vocabulary words for American grade school kids, and here are some from the list for 4th graders.

ability, abnormal, abuse, accelerate, accept, acceptance, accident, accidental, accomplish, account, accurate, acquaintance, action, active, activity, addend, adequate, adjacent, adjust, admire

You have to be reeeally unprivileged to not know most of these words, don't you think?

There's a difference between knowing a word and knowing the Kanji for a word. No one's saying the Japanese have a vocabulary of 500 words. That's absurd. But the fact is most Americans probably can't spell all those words correctly.

lol

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be." — Kurt Vonnegut

I lost interest in the video when I realized he couldn't look directly into the camera for more than 3 seconds at a time, and when he started his worthless conversation with the fact that there's 50,000 kanji and no one will ever know them all. That really supports his argument that so many Japanese are illiterate. Anyone who speaks Japanese and doesn't know those kanji is illiterate anyway then. Who wouldn't be??

Considering that a large majority of those 50,000 kanji: 1) Aren't even used in the Japanese language anyway and 2) are kept for history's sake, and are obsolete and have been for a long time.

Also, I find it quite funny that because his girlfriend is in a university, she isn't stupid. Man, maybe I'm insane but I've gone to a very prestigious university here in the US before and man, let me tell you. There weren't any stupid people there at all. IT'S INCREDIBLE!!

ropsta Wrote:There's a difference between knowing a word and knowing the Kanji for a word. No one's saying the Japanese have a vocabulary of 500 words. That's absurd. But the fact is most Americans probably can't spell all those words correctly.

Yea, but we learn Kanji like People in the states learn vocabulary. Kanji is ideogram=表意文字 so as long as you know Kanji, you can guess what new words you come across mean. Let's say 表意文字 is a new word for you, if you know 表（あらわす） 意（いみ）　文字（characters), then you can guess it's "characters that express meanings". Whereas in English, you have to know what "ideogram" means. True, you can somewhat guess what it means too if you have some greek and Latin knowledge, or have come across many words like ideo-something and something-gram before, but it's a whole lot easier to guess from Kanji.

I can't write many, thousands of, Kanji ether but I know what they mean and how they are pronounced, like American people know some words, know how to pronounce them, but don't know the spellings.

It's probably harder to learn Kanji at first but once you learnt a thousand or so, I think it may be easier because it's all about combining what you already know after that.

Trust me, 500 is a little extreme. I can see 1000 for some "hobos" and 1500, may be. but for a collage student to know only 500? I wanna know the name of that collage, cause I thought I graduated a college that was the easiest to get in and now they beat us

masaman Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:There's a difference between knowing a word and knowing the Kanji for a word. No one's saying the Japanese have a vocabulary of 500 words. That's absurd. But the fact is most Americans probably can't spell all those words correctly.

Yea, but we learn Kanji like People in the states learn vocabulary. Kanji is ideogram=表意文字 so as long as you know Kanji, you can guess what new words you come across mean. Let's say 表意文字 is a new word for you, if you know 表（あらわす） 意（いみ）　文字（characters), then you can guess it's "characters that express meanings". Whereas in English, you have to know what "ideogram" means. True, you can somewhat guess what it means too if you have some greek and Latin knowledge, or have come across many words like ideo-something and something-gram before, but it's a whole lot easier to guess from Kanji.

I can't write many, thousands of, Kanji ether but I know what they mean and how they are pronounced, like American people know some words, know how to pronounce them, but don't know the spellings.

It's probably harder to learn Kanji at first but once you learnt a thousand or so, I think it may be easier because it's all about combining what you already know after that.

Trust me, 500 is a little extreme. I can see 1000 for some "hobos" and 1500, may be. but for a collage student to know only 500? I wanna know the name of that collage, cause I thought I graduated a college that was the easiest to get in and now they beat us

So true. This is something I really love about Japanese. It's a really cool experience where given your knowledge you can work out the meaning of a word. Kanji are just so expressive.

masaman Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:There's a difference between knowing a word and knowing the Kanji for a word. No one's saying the Japanese have a vocabulary of 500 words. That's absurd. But the fact is most Americans probably can't spell all those words correctly.

Yea, but we learn Kanji like People in the states learn vocabulary. Kanji is ideogram=表意文字 so as long as you know Kanji, you can guess what new words you come across mean. Let's say 表意文字 is a new word for you, if you know 表（あらわす） 意（いみ）　文字（characters), then you can guess it's "characters that express meanings". Whereas in English, you have to know what "ideogram" means. True, you can somewhat guess what it means too if you have some greek and Latin knowledge, or have come across many words like ideo-something and something-gram before, but it's a whole lot easier to guess from Kanji.

You're comparing Kanji to words. Words have meaning with or without spelling. Until 10 seconds ago I didn't know how to spell encephalitis. I know what it means, though. Again your knowledge kanji does not prove anything about the overall knowledge level of the entirety of Japan.

ruiner Wrote:lol

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be." — Kurt Vonnegut

An overgeneralized statement by an obscure individual. :rolls eyes: once again

There is no pretention here, only an argument. A heavily censored, one sided, absurd argument - but an argument nonetheless.

ropsta Wrote:

ruiner Wrote:lol

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be." — Kurt Vonnegut

An overgeneralized statement by an obscure individual. :rolls eyes: once again

There is no pretention here, only an argument. A heavily censored, one sided, absurd argument - but an argument nonetheless.

There is no pretense because you've become what you pretend to be.

"What is your connection to yourself?" - Suicide Club

mezbup Wrote:So true. This is something I really love about Japanese. It's a really cool experience where given your knowledge you can work out the meaning of a word. Kanji are just so expressive.

We have to give ancient Chinese people the credit for that, but hey, Japanese invented ひらがな and カタカナ just in case some people complain 漢字 is to hard.

ropsta Wrote:You're comparing Kanji to words. Words have meaning with or without spelling. Until 10 seconds ago I didn't know how to spell encephalitis. I know what it means, though. Again your knowledge kanji does not prove anything about the overall knowledge level of the entirety of Japan.

Yea, it doesn't, and I'm not saying there isn't ANY Japanese adult who doesn't know 500 Kanji but I grew up there, I had education almost 100% in Japanese, and I was one of these hard core Japanese people on Tokyo streets who spoke no English whatsoever until I was 18 years old. And I have smoking-funny-things kind of friends too. If I don't know them, who does? This dude is definitely not the one for sure. hehe

encephalitis? I had no idea what it means but I knew 脳炎. See? if you know 脳(brain)炎（flame）, you can pretty much guess what it is.

mmm, should I put encephalitis in my Anki?

masaman Wrote:

ropsta Wrote:You're comparing Kanji to words. Words have meaning with or without spelling. Until 10 seconds ago I didn't know how to spell encephalitis. I know what it means, though. Again your knowledge kanji does not prove anything about the overall knowledge level of the entirety of Japan.

Yea, it doesn't, and I'm not saying there isn't ANY Japanese adult who doesn't know 500 Kanji but I grew up there, I had education almost 100% in Japanese, and I was one of these hard core Japanese people on Tokyo streets who spoke no English whatsoever until I was 18 years old. And I have smoking-funny-things kind of friends too. If I don't know them, who does? This dude is definitely not the one for sure. hehe

encephalitis? I had no idea what it means but I knew 脳炎. See? if you know 脳(brain)炎（flame）, you can pretty much guess what it is.

mmm, should I put encephalitis in my Anki?

hehe, you and ropsta should talk on the forum more often. i think when ropsta gets like this, you're the only person i've seen here that can help create an interesting back-and-forth conversation from it!

masaman Wrote:

mezbup Wrote:So true. This is something I really love about Japanese. It's a really cool experience where given your knowledge you can work out the meaning of a word. Kanji are just so expressive.

We have to give ancient Chinese people the credit for that, but hey, Japanese invented ひらがな and カタカナ just in case some people complain 漢字 is to hard.

漢字よりカタカナの方が難しい。IMO.

How would you say "Houston" in Katakana pronounciation? And whats with Computer virus? and every 5th word being a loan word? I didn't know Japanese had so many english loan words until I got deeper into the language. It's still a very cool language and in normal speech it's not really like you hear a loan word every 5 seconds but they are quite common. They just start to frustrate me a little.

It's interesting the amount of loan words the English language actually has... it's not all that many but you definitely hear them from time to time. For instance even though English has a word "tidal wave" because Tsunami is so much cooler, we use that. Hehe.

I think we do have a lot of loan words though. But for the most part, they're written like any other word and we quickly forget (or don't realise) it is a loanword. In Japanese, they're written in Katakana which tends to prevent that sort of ready absorption and forgetfulness of its loanword origins.

blackmacros Wrote:In Japanese, they're written in Katakana which tends to prevent that sort of ready absorption and forgetfulness of its loanword origins.

Well, that and they just tend not to sound anything like native Japanese or Chinese-inspired vocabulary. タバコ is passable, but ウェーバー and テープ aren't gonna fool anyone.

Still, though, you can actually tell where a lot of English words came from by their spelling in relation to their pronunciation, since (in the past few hundred years) we haven't changed the spelling of words on adopting them to meet pronunciation standards, one of English's strengths as a language. We just don't usually think that much about it, because we don't have much of a reason to; words are words, and with some exceptions, they all sound like English. The only reason it's such a thing for Japanese is because their language, with it's writing system, and usual pronunciation, is so closed. Any foreign word, at this point, sticks out like a really sore thumb. Ignoring text and katakanazation, even when you can't recognize what a word is in audio (maybe it's not from English), you can tell immediately that it's a loanword, just because it 'doesn't sound Japanese'.

Mezbup: To that 'not all that many' comment, take a gander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_lan...rd_origins

masaman Wrote:By the way, why is Arkansas pronounced Arkansaw？ It drives me crazy. English speaking people must be stressed because of this spelling thing

I think it's a native American loanword... it's annoying that English tends to keep the original pronunciation (that's fine) but does not adapt the spelling to English conventions (grrrr...)

masaman Wrote:Yea, but we learn Kanji like People in the states learn vocabulary. Kanji is ideogram=表意文字 so as long as you know Kanji, you can guess what new words you come across mean. Let's say 表意文字 is a new word for you, if you know 表（あらわす） 意（いみ）　文字（characters), then you can guess it's "characters that express meanings". Whereas in English, you have to know what "ideogram" means. True, you can somewhat guess what it means too if you have some greek and Latin knowledge, or have come across many words like ideo-something and something-gram before, but it's a whole lot easier to guess from Kanji.

Actually this is something that they teach in grammar schools which is unfortunately neglected by most ESL teachers. At least at the school I went to I remember my teachers took the time to explain the common latin and greek roots, some common words as examples, and we would be quizzed on vocabulary. As a result, any educated native speaker would know that "ideo-" means relating to concepts or thoughts, "geo-" means relating to the earth, "-gram" means language or characters, etc. IMO latin and greek roots should be learnt by ESL students in the same manner and for the same reasons that we study kanji here on this site...

I decided to make a response video. Others were being too nice lol.

I'm assuming the dude can't delete video responses?

ropsta Wrote:Now, if you were to say ask a random guy in Osaka the meaning of random kanji, if he looked well-off enough, financially, he would be able to answer the questions with a high degree of success. However, if you were to search the alleys for a poor retarded hobo, you'd find that he is unable to provide a sufficient answer to the question.

ropsta Wrote:@andrewlandry

Newspapers cost $$$. Get it. The rich guys just buy extra to use a floor covering for they're pet tigers. You know those thing crap - a lot!

You sure paint an accurate picture of social classes. Rich people with tigers and poor retarded hobos, I think kanji knowledge is the least of societies worries then.

masaman Wrote:encephalitis? I had no idea what it means but I knew 脳炎. See? if you know 脳(brain)炎（flame）, you can pretty much guess what it is.

I completely agree and I love this aspect of kanji (when it works), but with your example I can guess the meaning of the word from the constituents too:
* cephal (head), I know this one from "cephalopod", don't ask me why.
* -itis (inflammation suffix)
This works a lot for scientific/medical terms, which will use combinations of latin roots, or of greek roots. I know some of the latin roots from having learned latin in school, but also many greek roots just from exposure. This is easier the closer your language is to roman/greek (in my case, French).

I'll only post that this thread is a fascinating read so far. Certainly the perception I've been exposed to is of extremely high literacy rates and capabilities in Japan.

But more importantly, I'm surprised and impressed by how many people here are kind or tolerant enough to listen to this guy.

As soon as I saw him with the twitching and the blunt it was the "Homepage" button. I can't bear to pay attention to what young people who look like that are saying off the computer much less on the internet.

Kudos.

masaman Wrote:By the way, why is Arkansas pronounced Arkansaw？ It drives me crazy. English speaking people must be stressed because of this spelling thing

How to spell and pronounce the state's name was a highly debated topic in the early days of statehood. There was actually a law created, still in the books, making it a criminal offense to pronounce Arkansas incorrectly (It is still illegal to be lesbian or bring your horse into a saloon in Arkansas as well).
The pronunciation, Ark-an-Saw (South Wind), is how their neighbors to the north pronounced the native people who lived in that area, while the spelling Arkansas reflects the nationality of the French who first explored the area.

bodhisamaya Wrote:

masaman Wrote:By the way, why is Arkansas pronounced Arkansaw？ It drives me crazy. English speaking people must be stressed because of this spelling thing

How to spell and pronounce the state's name was a highly debated topic in the early days of statehood. There was actually a law created, still in the books, making it a criminal offense to pronounce Arkansas incorrectly (It is still illegal to be lesbian or bring your horse into a saloon in Arkansas as well).
The pronunciation, Ark-an-Saw (South Wind), is how their neighbors to the north pronounced the native people who lived in that area, while the spelling Arkansas reflects the nationality of the French who first explored the area.

yes but how do you spell it in kanji? That is the real question.

アーカンソー州

州の愛称: 自然の州

Maybe 嗚観総？

So being a lesbian is illegal in Arkansas, but Arkansas has a lesbian state legislator?

http://arkansaswatch.blogspot.com/2008/0...first.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Webb

o.0

There are archaic laws in every state that are so stupid no one bothers to repeal them because there is little fear of anyone being cited.
According to the Sodomy Law of Arkansas, oral sex between two women is defined to be sodomy as well.
Other strange Arkansas laws:
-School teachers who bob their hair will not get a raise.
-A man can legally beat his wife, but not more than once a month
-Alligators may not be kept in bathtubs.
-Dogs may not bark after 6 PM.
-Flirtation between men and women on the streets of Little Rock may result in a 30-day jail term.
-It is unlawful to walk one’s cow down Main Street after 1:00 PM on Sunday