I just got raped.... by output. Verbally

No amount of story writing, no amount of shadowing, none of the 5000+ sentences I've SRS'd could prepare me... I just had the longest conversation of my life and I did it with less than 100 words. It went a little something like:

You have a call from : Person

Person: Ever been raped?
Me: 僕は。。。。あまり。。。。で
Person: 日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語 Jam it in
Me:　明日。。。は。。。。学校は。。。。
Person: 日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語あれ。。。？Jiggle it around
Me:　あの。。。
Person:　聞こえますか？兄弟は？Is this your first time?
Me (Banging head on monitor): 兄弟は。。。六つ。。。にん。。。あります。。。います
Person:　あそうか日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語 Money's on the table

Between each those ellipses was a ridiculously long pause. I even forgot English from time to time. Eventually I just got used to the fact that I wasn't gonna produce much of anything my first time out, and tried to stick to the simple stuff. I even threw in a few caveman lines. 今、頭、爆発.

The the strangest part was that I could understand everything that was being said to me, I just could seem to say much of anything back.

I don't know whether to call this a milestone or an epic failure.

Guess I just need to vent....

One thing I do know, though, is that I have to get this damned Momusu voice out of my head. I kept referencing 田中レイナ clips in my mind. You are what you input, I guess. Gonna go watch some manly things for a bit.

Anyone else have any similar sort of experience with output (verbal)?

PS Try to keep the "I told you so"s to a minimum please.

Its all a matter of practice really. My Japanese is probably on a higher, or at least equal, level to my Indonesian (which I learnt for 5 years in Highschool). I can easily hold a conversation in Indonesian (I once spent an hour chatting [up] with an Indonesian maid who spoke no English)...but I can barely speak a word of Japanese.

Why the huge difference? Because much of my time spent learning Indonesian was focused on improvisational speaking. We focused on the ability to speak fluently and work around weaknesses, because 30% of our final exam was a conversation with a native. There is a lot of talk about how with enough input you will be able to output, but I think the reality is that you don't get good at things you don't practice.

So uhh..just go out, present your ass (ear?) for some more rape and....eventually you'll get better at it? Ok, I think the analogy broke down.

PS. I told you so. In the ear.

Yeah I really want to improve my output as well. Really lags behind my comprehension. Tips welcome - I'm in Japan with rad friends, is there anything we can do besides just talking with them and 'trying hard'?

This is a limitation I am greatly aware of. I do all this KO2001/RTK/iKnow stuff, but when I'm in my Japanese class, I'm completely incompetent when the teacher asks me something in Japanese.

I don't know...I view it as a blessing. It means I'm able to completely slip under the radar, and don't get teachers bugging me and saying "you know, you really shouldn't be in such a low level class" because they only see output ability when you're in class. Yet, the majority of my mark comes from input ability at this level (barely any speaking or writing assessments). Its brilliant.

I told you so. Sorry, but my point isn't that you were wrong, just that I was right. In fact, I think it's great that you've noticed this and shares it with us.

As I've been saying all along on these forums, Khazu's ridiculous claim that you can automatically speak a language fluently once you've passed a certain amount of input is simply wrong. It just doesn't happen like that. If nothing else, I'd say it's good proof that I, after 3 months living in Japan and studying by traditional methods, spoke Japanese better than some people here who could probably pass JLPT2. Output lags behind so much for AJATT people, not because "output is always WAY behind input" but since if you only train input, you will only be good at input.

Fortunately, this doesn't change Khazu's advice. Focusing almost 100% on input is a good idea. It's just important to realize that you won't magically be able to converse in Japanese just because you've read a few books. Don't worry about it. Your output simply needs more training, and training it isn't hard. A month of daily Japanese conversations, and you will almost feel fluent.

My best advice to anyone who wants to be able to speak Japanese: Go to Japan, for a long time. Speak Japanese all the time. Don't use English. It's like AJATT, but All Japanese OUTPUT All The Time. Get drunk, speak Japanese while drunk, nothing is more effective.

on the AJATT site Khazu preaches input *before* output, but I don't think he claims that pure input will lead to magically l33t speaking abilities.

When you read his blog entries in full, it's clear that he constantly practised output with the help of his Japanese friends, and also by inventing scenarios in his mind where he had to respond in Japanese (ok he wasn't physically speaking, but it still counts). Also didn't he say he used to speak along with films and TV shows, trying to output what the actors were saying before they said it (a kind of pre-emptive shadowing)?

If you have a solid foundation, that means the grammar and vocab is all there, stored in your mind, you just need practise getting it all out. You don't need to go to the extreme of moving to Japanese for this; just find a Japanese language swap partner (in real life or on Skype) and practise practise practise!

I would guess that enough input would lead to good written output, not necessarily good spoken output, where you have time to think about what you're writing.

Anyway, what about shadowing dialogues or having talking out loud to yourself. Not as good as the real thing, but better than nothing.

EDIT: Here's a case where Richard Boydell achieved excellent written output from just input, but due to his disability nothing can be inferred about his speaking ability.

aphasiac Wrote:If you have a solid foundation, that means the grammar and vocab is all there, stored in your mind, you just need practise getting it all out. You don't need to go to the extreme of moving to Japanese for this; just find a Japanese language swap partner (in real life or on Skype) and practise practise practise!

I personally don't believe a language partner is a proper substitute for real conversation in Japanese in a non-learning situation. The conversations with language partners are usually quite rigid. When teaching someone a language, you're pretty self-confident, and you don't speak it as you would at a bar with your friends.

It's a good alternative for people who can't afford going to Japan, but it's not a perfect substitute.

travis Wrote:I would guess that enough input would lead to good written output, not necessarily good spoken output, where you have time to think about what you're writing.

Anyway, what about shadowing dialogues or having talking out loud to yourself. Not as good as the real thing, but better than nothing.

Not necessarily. After I started using lang-8 to help train my output and to vent a little (in japanese of course) I found that I make small mistakes on simple things here and there. But luckily I get corrections and SRS them and I'm able to express myself better and better.

aphasiac Wrote:... and also by inventing scenarios in his mind where he had to respond in Japanese (ok he wasn't physically speaking, but it still counts).

This. It bears repeating. Keep it on a basic level and choose something to focus on to get the most out of it. I was using it while learning Spanish and even though I spoke Spanish daily it made me progress a lot because you can stop to correct any mistakes that occur when you speak quickly and you can practice grammar/expressions you're not comfortable using in a conversation because they seem too tricky. It's very active learning and you can do it whenever/wherever you want. Physically speaking/writing out the dialogues when possible helps too.
Seriously, awesome.

I wouldn't say "I told you so" at all. I mean if you could change it now, what would you have done differently? Started conversations earlier? Gone to classes? Maybe it would've helped but I don't think you need to worry, now that you are doing output you should be able to learn it pretty quickly.

I once saw a comment at AJATT where a poor soul said that despite living in Japan and understanding most of what was being said he still couldn't strike up a conversation - Khatz replied with "MOST of what you hear, but what about if you understand completely?" basically telling her/him to just do more input. Moral of the story: do not as Khatz sayeth, look to see what he hath done so you may learneth from itheth. His stories are more interesting than his actual tips, to me anyway.

Something I thought of just now was, wouldn't it be best if you could go mail friend -> IM messaging -> Skype convos? So both parts get more familiar, you can take it in steps and when you finally actually do the conversation you kinda know what to expect from each other. You just gotta find someone on the other side willing to do this.

Props on gathering the courage for doing output!

travis Wrote:EDIT: Here's a case where Richard Boydell achieved excellent written output from just input, but due to his disability nothing can be inferred about his speaking ability.

People always show this as an example and I think it's the most ridiculous misleading thing ever. That guy was not in a second-language learning situation, and there are so many variables different between his situation and ours.

Not that it really matters. Everyone on this website will eventually find out for themselves that if you don't do any output you'll never be any good at it.

Ever pretend your floor was made of lava as a kid and run around on the furniture? Maybe that was just me (Edit: Nope [Don't know why suggests it's gender-specific, tho]). Khatzumoto described doing something similar, pretending he was Japanese and had to speak it to survive in various imaginary situations. Nukemarine mentioned 'j-karaoke', turning the volume down and dubbing the shows, or somesuch? There's also the 'imaginary conversations' thing I mentioned, but even though you can make that more improvisational by using multiple cues and responses in combination with the randomization, doesn't seem like there'd be much point to doing that instead of getting real conversation practice, once you're at that level (or earlier, depending on how shy you are ;p).

Personally, I always assumed the output benefits of input came from the mental corpus we develop as we get immersed in these mental worlds and imagine ourselves to be the characters/people in question. You ever read/watched something, gotten semi-immersed, and went off on your own tangents while the actual story continued? (In effect daydreaming your own fan fiction.)

I posted a link (last link) to a book that had 'listening comprehension' exercises for developing ideational/associational fluency, et cetera, I bet they can easily enough be adapted for output practice...

Surreal Wrote:Something I thought of just now was, wouldn't it be best if you could go mail friend -> IM messaging -> Skype convos? So both parts get more familiar, you can take it in steps and when you finally actually do the conversation you kinda know what to expect from each other. You just gotta find someone on the other side willing to do this.

Props on gathering the courage for doing output!

This is basically my output strategy i'm following atm. So far I'm starting out with writing a brief summary on some of the days important events and see what corrections come back. This helps. Lots.

Then when i'm at a stage where my output is faster and more comprehensible i'll be ready for IM and then move on to skype! It doesn't have to be with the same person IMO, there's plenty of people to talk to who are willing.

@Nest0r,

That's been my thinking: If you cannot read out loud from simple text "fluidly" or recite from memory a stretch of simple dialogue from a well watched drama "fluidly" how the hell are you expecting to speak basic, creative conversations "fluidly"?

We cannot reasonably expect to have a 1 or 2 hour a day language partner to practice speaking. We have to find a reasonable alternative in the self-study route. I think drama/anime audio that you understand is that acceptable substitute. I am honestly thinking that comprehending a drama, then using that son of a bitch till the wheels fall off via listening, reading and reciting will do wonders for not only your listening input but your speaking output abilities. Wash, rinse, repeat.

To me, the two weeks I spent in Japan, it seemed phrases pulled from the very basic set-up I had at the time still came off more fluidly then sentences culled from iKnow. Even my wife was saying I'm confusing some Japanese people, because I'm sounding like I understand more than I do that they begin speaking full speed.

Point being, you can not only practice your output but have immediate feedback. Just try to repeat, speak along with, or speak instead of drama audio you know well. You should be able to hear what you're getting wrong and correct as you go along.

I told you so. LOL
epic fa...

Nukemarine Wrote:@Nest0r,

That's been my thinking: If you cannot read out loud from simple text "fluidly" or recite from memory a stretch of simple dialogue from a well watched drama "fluidly" how the hell are you expecting to speak basic, creative conversations "fluidly"?

We cannot reasonably expect to have a 1 or 2 hour a day language partner to practice speaking. We have to find a reasonable alternative in the self-study route. I think drama/anime audio that you understand is that acceptable substitute. I am honestly thinking that comprehending a drama, then using that son of a bitch till the wheels fall off via listening, reading and reciting will do wonders for not only your listening input but your speaking output abilities. Wash, rinse, repeat.

To me, the two weeks I spent in Japan, it seemed phrases pulled from the very basic set-up I had at the time still came off more fluidly then sentences culled from iKnow. Even my wife was saying I'm confusing some Japanese people, because I'm sounding like I understand more than I do that they begin speaking full speed.

Point being, you can not only practice your output but have immediate feedback. Just try to repeat, speak along with, or speak instead of drama audio you know well. You should be able to hear what you're getting wrong and correct as you go along.

Mimicking =/= Output. Just because I read the answer to a complex equation out loud doesn't mean I can solve said equation myself.

Mimicking is great for pronunciation, but how do you expect to learn creative output from saying the same thing someone else is saying? The whole thought process of creative output is removed.

Tobberoth Wrote:Mimicking =/= Output. Just because I read the answer to a complex equation out loud doesn't mean I can solve said equation myself.

Mimicking is great for pronunciation, but how do you expect to learn creative output from saying the same thing someone else is saying? The whole thought process of creative output is removed.

I agree, you don't get any response by just mimicking and it's kinda more like 'mindless' copying. You won't be able to create output as a response to what somebody else is saying. At least the '1 or 2 hour a day language partner practise' gives you more of an opportunity to put into practise (and kinda force yourself) what you've learned. Ofcourse it's not gonna work miracles, but at I'd choose it over mimicking some dorama like Nuke said. And that 'immediate feedback' is dead.

IMO, people should start by chatting. Chatting, while very different from fluent conversation, demands both speed and creativity. You don't have to worry about the big errors since you will probably see them and correct them, yet you get to be creative with the language in a situation where you can't spend minutes working on your answers.

With this training, you should be able to start speaking Japanese for real after a while, where you will need to be much faster.

Tobberoth, thanks for missing the point. Or maybe you didn't, so let me ask:

Can a person that CANNOT recite large amounts simple written material fluidly, NOR mimic large amounts of simple dialogue fluidly BE ABLE to speak fluidly during simple conversations?

Yes, actual conversation has to occur. Yes, you have to listen to audio which didn't have every word run through Anki. The question is, if you're not adequate with the pre-created, known material what chance do you have with the creative and unknown stuff?

It's not an instead of, it's a before. Jeez, didn't you just beat your chest in triumph when I posted about comprehensible audio beats out non-comprehensible audio saying "I've said that all along". Yet here you want people to do the output version of non-comprehension. If you can't hold a conversation with something you know that's coming next (memorized dialogue for example), it's not a good idea to think about having a conversation where the next thing is up in the air.

Tobberoth, you're at a level where the above is almost pointless. You probably can read out loud fluidly, recite songs and dialogue from memory with full comprehension. Yeah, with you you need to talk to more people. With those of us still at the lower levels, maybe we should be a bit more controlled with what we're using to practice speaking.

Nukemarine Wrote:Tobberoth, thanks for missing the point. Or maybe you didn't, so let me ask:

Can a person that CANNOT recite large amounts simple written material fluidly, NOR mimic large amounts of simple dialogue fluidly BE ABLE to speak fluidly during simple conversations?

Yes, actual conversation has to occur. Yes, you have to listen to audio which didn't have every word run through Anki. The question is, if you're not adequate with the pre-created, known material what chance do you have with the creative and unknown stuff?

It's not an instead of, it's a before. Jeez, didn't you just beat your chest in triumph when I posted about comprehensible audio beats out non-comprehensible audio saying "I've said that all along". Yet here you want people to do the output version of non-comprehension. If you can't hold a conversation with something you know that's coming next (memorized dialogue for example), it's not a good idea to think about having a conversation where the next thing is up in the air.

Tobberoth, you're at a level where the above is almost pointless. You probably can read out loud fluidly, recite songs and dialogue from memory with full comprehension. Yeah, with you you need to talk to more people. With those of us still at the lower levels, maybe we should be a bit more controlled with what we're using to practice speaking.

The thing is, while I maybe can do those things now, I couldn't when I got to the point where I had no problem at all conversing with natives. You don't need to be able to recite and mimic a drama to speak to someone in Japanese about what you ate for breakfast. You don't have to speak as fast as natives to speak correctly and have a decent conversation. Reciting is a whole different problem area, which has a lot to do with how well your short term memory works for a language. This is important, but it's not very important when speaking. You don't have to be able to repeat instantly what the other person in a conversation said, you just have to remember what you're talking about and what your partners latest addition was. What you then have to do, is be creative and structure some form of response. This relies on a few things, mainly having an active vocabulary, and having basic grammar completely internalized. If you have to think about the correct conjugation for a verb, you've already lost. It has to be automatic, and it does become automatic if you keep trying.

The main counter towards your argument however, is that we know that kazelee has been shadowing since the start, he's one of the biggest proponents of shadowing on this forum. He obviously still "got raped". IMO, that sort of sets the point down firmly that mimicking people isn't going to help your creative output. By telling him to mimick more, you're basically saying "You know what you did all along which didn't work? Keep doing it.".

So to summarize: Yes, you can respond fluently in a conversation without being able to fluidly recite material.

kazelee Wrote:It went a little something like:

You have a call from : Person

Person: Ever been raped?
Me: 僕は。。。。あまり。。。。で
Person: 日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語 Jam it in
Me:　明日。。。は。。。。学校は。。。。
Person: 日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語あれ。。。？Jiggle it around
Me:　あの。。。
Person:　聞こえますか？兄弟は？Is this your first time?
Me (Banging head on monitor): 兄弟は。。。六つ。。。にん。。。あります。。。います
Person:　あそうか日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語日本語 Money's on the table

You forgot the most important part:
"日本語上手ですね" clap clap

XD

Tobberoth Wrote:Mimicking =/= Output. Just because I read the answer to a complex equation out loud doesn't mean I can solve said equation myself.

Mimicking is great for pronunciation, but how do you expect to learn creative output from saying the same thing someone else is saying? The whole thought process of creative output is removed.

mimicking ⊂ learning

You can watch a movie, dorama, etc. you like and start mimicking your favorite dialogues. As you accumulate dialogues and exposure, if you really like what you're watching, you'll probably start by yourself not just repeating, but recreating what you've been listening too. Like creating your own "fanfiction" version of your favorite programs. You can also start thinking about what you're watching, using the expressions you've been exposed to. Of course, it all depends on your own attitude towards what you watch. You can just watch passively, or you can take a more active role, producing your own output based on or inspired by what you watch.

Besides, we all learned our first language by mimicking, or am I wrong?

Tobberoth Wrote:IMO, people should start by chatting.

Or posting on 掲示板s.

BTW, does somebody know any interesting (native) Japanese IRC server or channel?

Tobberoth Wrote:I told you so. Sorry, but my point isn't that you were wrong, just that I was right.

Actually, this was one of the few things I'd come to agree with you on. I blame psychology for that. Just never realized the extend to which it were true. I made the comment with hopes of avoiding AJATT debates.

aphasiac Wrote:If you have a solid foundation, that means the grammar and vocab is all there, stored in your mind, you just need practise getting it all out. You don't need to go to the extreme of moving to Japanese for this; just find a Japanese language swap partner (in real life or on Skype) and practise practise practise!

Jiggle jiggle jiggle!

Quote:Also didn't he say he used to speak along with films and TV shows, trying to output what the actors were saying before they said it (a kind of pre-emptive shadowing)?

Me そう shadow. ^^

surreal Wrote:I wouldn't say "I told you so" at all. I mean if you could change it now, what would you have done differently? Started conversations earlier? Gone to classes? Maybe it would've helped but I don't think you need to worry, now that you are doing output you should be able to learn it pretty quickly.

Them some good questions. I haven't seen much on the subject of verbal output that I could employ, being half a planet away from the users of the target language in all, so I guess I'm right were I should be....

Quote:Moral of the story: do not as Khatz sayeth, look to see what he hath done so you may learneth from itheth. His stories are more interesting than his actual tips, to me anyway.

I don't really follow AJATT. I SRS, I shadow, I do scriptorium, I read tutorials/books on grammar... I've stopped listening to stuff I can't comprehend, I think classes are a good option for some people...

Quote:Something I thought of just now was, wouldn't it be best if you could go mail friend -> IM messaging -> Skype convos? So both parts get more familiar, you can take it in steps and when you finally actually do the conversation you kinda know what to expect from each other. You just gotta find someone on the other side willing to do this.

This is kinda how it went down. I made a few errors during the messaging stage. The IM'ing part was a bit slow. Then I got floored trying to speak. The funny thing is, after trying to speak for about an hour, my IM speed went up drastically.

Quote:Props on gathering the courage for doing output!

Props should go out to PERSON. PERSON seemed more gungho about it than I was. PERSON was also able to artfully dodge every attempt on my part to turn the conversation into English, despite having an English ability that seemed to surpassed my Japanese.

Musasi Wrote:I told you so. LOL
epic fa...

Epic.... Fantasy? ....ファキン? I thought you and I were through? No! You can't just do that whenever you want something from me.

Tobberoth Wrote:Mimicking =/= Output. Just because I read the answer to a complex equation out loud doesn't mean I can solve said equation myself.

That depends on how adaptable you are and how much prior knowledge you have, and whether or not you've tried solving an equation after reading the solution out loud before. I good foundation in output will allow better output of foreign or unfamiliar constructions... i think...

Nukemarine Wrote:Can a person that CANNOT recite large amounts simple written material fluidly, NOR mimic large amounts of simple dialogue fluidly BE ABLE to speak fluidly during simple conversations?

Me そう shadow.

Me can read kiddy stuffs aloud fluently. Does that count?

Perhaps the source material is at fault. How often am I gonna tell a person about a weird dream I had, or a 昔話, or my chameleon-like girlfriend?

BTW How long do you guys reckon it'll take until I reach nest0rian levels in Japanese conversation?

Sebastian Wrote:You forgot the most important part:
"日本語上手ですね" clap clap

XD

Thanks for reminding me.... >_<

JIGGLE JIGGLE

I swear you could accidentally call their mother a whore and still get that response.

I guess the real indication about your level is the fact they use 上手 instead ぺらぺら, or some other form a compliment.

Sebastian Wrote:Besides, we all learned our first language by mimicking, or am I wrong?

You're not wrong, but you're talking about a different kind of mimicking. I am inspired by people I respect and end up using the same expressions as they use, sure. However, I don't watch movies with them and keep repeating what they say. I never did that as a child either. I am INSPIRED by people, I don't actively copy them.

I don't think we learn languages by saying the exact same thing as everyone else, I think we create our own language and only "copy" or "borrow" the most memorable things.

Sebastian Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:IMO, people should start by chatting.

Or posting on 掲示板s.

掲示板 is good training as well, but it's too slow and similar to lang-8. It helps with written output, but it probably won't be very adaptable to real speech, at least not until you're advanced enough to actively discuss things like we do here.

Tobberoth Wrote:

Sebastian Wrote:

Tobberoth Wrote:IMO, people should start by chatting.

Or posting on 掲示板s.

掲示板 is good training as well, but it's too slow and similar to lang-8. It helps with written output, but it probably won't be very adaptable to real speech, at least not until you're advanced enough to actively discuss things like we do here.

Does anyone know any Japanese forums? I don't mean those 2chan like boards though. I mean proper forums with registration, avatars, signatures, post counts... I can't stand stand those bulitin board style forums, they're so hard to follow =(