I keep beginning to type a comment, then realize I already said all I have to say, hmm. I can't improve on my methods anymore! Not till Phase 3.
2009-08-24, 1:55 pm
bombpersons Wrote:Does anyone know any Japanese forums?Check 発言小町, it's part of the 読売新聞's site, it has a nice and simple to follow design and the 雰囲気 there is pretty nice too.
2009-08-24, 3:46 pm
Dear Kazelee, not everyone enjoys their first time, sweetheart. Try to relax. Before you know it, you'll be comfortably and happily putting out....er...outputting. =]
I'm going to post a few more thoughts on how to improve spoken Japanese. I realize it will all sound ridiculously common sense. But the reality is most self-learners have quite lopsided skills. We don't need massive amounts of kanji or vocab or much sophisticated grammar to have basic conversations. In fact, there is a stage where I think it can even get in the way. Remember, not that long ago many foreigners who lived and worked in Japanese couldn't read it (fortunately technology has completely changed the game). Unfortunately, I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way in some of these internet communities. Speaking is fun, challenging, reinforcing, social ...and it will make you rich, attractive and wise. (hey, that approach seems to work for that other guy).
I'm going to post a few more thoughts on how to improve spoken Japanese. I realize it will all sound ridiculously common sense. But the reality is most self-learners have quite lopsided skills. We don't need massive amounts of kanji or vocab or much sophisticated grammar to have basic conversations. In fact, there is a stage where I think it can even get in the way. Remember, not that long ago many foreigners who lived and worked in Japanese couldn't read it (fortunately technology has completely changed the game). Unfortunately, I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way in some of these internet communities. Speaking is fun, challenging, reinforcing, social ...and it will make you rich, attractive and wise. (hey, that approach seems to work for that other guy).
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2009-08-24, 3:50 pm
A few hopefully practical ideas on improving spoken Japanese:
*I like the active studying suggestions. Recognition SRS is to passive to be the main diet. Use your SRS prompts for transformation practice as well: substitute different nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc; convert the tense, make it negative, change it to a command.
* The written and spoken languages have differences and sometimes it's difficult to know which patterns and vocab are more appropriate for which. Japanese can hear if a foreigner has focused on reading. (I apparently sounded like a Nikkei article) Some good textbooks on Spoken Japanese really helped me. For example, my (very old) books had not only dialogues (which compared different levels of politeness) but lists of expressions/patterns used in speech with example sentences. It clearly noted what the equivalent written version would be (which is good info to include in your SRS sentences) (Mine were from Inter-University Center). A list of those spoken patterns/expressions would be a good start.
*Practice how to use useful verbs vis a vis another person: てあげる、てくれる、てもらう、etc. Imagine which you would use with different people in different situations. Pay attention to the nuances of the variations of each one. This really needs to become second nature for conversation.
*Also focus on task-specific constructions: requests, commands, reporting, etc.
*Rather than massive sentence collections or mining entire shows, create a list of things you actually want to be able to say. Try to work it out, then confirm with dictionaries or lang8, etc. Be more strategic - more practical. Perhaps start with verbs and nouns in your daily routine.
*Study dialogues in chunks - isolated sentences less useful.
*Watching natural spoken Japanese is key, but it's often too hard. Drama is easier than interviews. There are materials (CD with annotating transcripts) out there which aim to demonstrate different styles of spoken Japanese. We don't talk in fully formed sentences. Even polite speech has all kinds of pauses and fragments. [This is where Mr AJATT confuses "living" speech with "colloquial" speech.] The content and AV quality may not be cool, but it's effective exposure. It's a tool. "Living Japanese", is one example.
*Mimicking certainly helps certain aspects of speaking, but I think having a stock of practically useful spoken constructions and creatively transforming them to fit different situations is essential. I'm with Tobberoth here. Again, you can practice this alone. It's controlled output. It works!
*Session with a tutor/language partner should have some structure when you're starting out. Less awkward, more benefit. Hanging out with friends is the time to go for pure spontaneity.
*I like the active studying suggestions. Recognition SRS is to passive to be the main diet. Use your SRS prompts for transformation practice as well: substitute different nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc; convert the tense, make it negative, change it to a command.
* The written and spoken languages have differences and sometimes it's difficult to know which patterns and vocab are more appropriate for which. Japanese can hear if a foreigner has focused on reading. (I apparently sounded like a Nikkei article) Some good textbooks on Spoken Japanese really helped me. For example, my (very old) books had not only dialogues (which compared different levels of politeness) but lists of expressions/patterns used in speech with example sentences. It clearly noted what the equivalent written version would be (which is good info to include in your SRS sentences) (Mine were from Inter-University Center). A list of those spoken patterns/expressions would be a good start.
*Practice how to use useful verbs vis a vis another person: てあげる、てくれる、てもらう、etc. Imagine which you would use with different people in different situations. Pay attention to the nuances of the variations of each one. This really needs to become second nature for conversation.
*Also focus on task-specific constructions: requests, commands, reporting, etc.
*Rather than massive sentence collections or mining entire shows, create a list of things you actually want to be able to say. Try to work it out, then confirm with dictionaries or lang8, etc. Be more strategic - more practical. Perhaps start with verbs and nouns in your daily routine.
*Study dialogues in chunks - isolated sentences less useful.
*Watching natural spoken Japanese is key, but it's often too hard. Drama is easier than interviews. There are materials (CD with annotating transcripts) out there which aim to demonstrate different styles of spoken Japanese. We don't talk in fully formed sentences. Even polite speech has all kinds of pauses and fragments. [This is where Mr AJATT confuses "living" speech with "colloquial" speech.] The content and AV quality may not be cool, but it's effective exposure. It's a tool. "Living Japanese", is one example.
*Mimicking certainly helps certain aspects of speaking, but I think having a stock of practically useful spoken constructions and creatively transforming them to fit different situations is essential. I'm with Tobberoth here. Again, you can practice this alone. It's controlled output. It works!
*Session with a tutor/language partner should have some structure when you're starting out. Less awkward, more benefit. Hanging out with friends is the time to go for pure spontaneity.
Edited: 2009-08-24, 3:52 pm
2009-08-24, 6:30 pm
kazelee, can you tell us you study history? What sentences did you enter into your SRS? How much immersion have you done?
You cannot speak Japanese with just metadata. It is like getting someone to study a very detailed book on swimming until it is etched into his brain, then expecting them to be able to swim. What you need is the goo that connects all the metadata together, well actually you just need goo. A native speaker has no idea on grammar rules or minute differences between words yet they can speak virtually perfectly.
The way to get goo is (interesting) contextful input, which is to say data. The data teaches you the way the language connects together. There are not that many responses to a given situation not many ways to keep speaking after a certain sentence. Words and grammar are tools that only work in certain contexts and situations. After seeing them used over and over again, you can use them in the same fashion. In actual fact, a word cannot be defined by a definition, rather it is the sum of it's uses. To be able to speak well you need to have these uses hardwired into your brain from exposure.
This is where contextful items in your SRS are so useful. You remember the context in which the sentence was used and the link between it and it's usage/effect become stronger, eventually making it available to you when you speak.
Goo (data) alone is a sure fire way to become a great speaker of the language, however it is not the fastest. A swimmer who swims 12 hours a day probably won't become a world class swimmer on that alone. Analysis of her style, feedback on where she is slightly off and such help the swimmer. They do not teach her how to swim well, however, they allow her to gain more data when she practices swimming. She is aware of issues with her style and can use the data she gains from then to more effectively swim.
You can learn words and grammar without ever reading a definition. I have done this many times. However, it is faster to use definitions to help you. This doesn't then mean you can use the word, it is still metadata, however it allows you to understand real data better which means you will be able to use it sooner. In other words it increases the efficiency of your data gathering.
Metadata alone though is not enough. It can seem that way in the beginning when you only know one word for "but". However, when you know 10-15 you can't think your way to the correct one to use based on the context.
So it seems like you have learnt a lot of metadata, but not inputed much data and thus lack goo
kazelee Wrote:I don't really follow AJATT. I SRS, I shadow, I do scriptorium, I read tutorials/books on grammar... I've stopped listening to stuff I can't comprehend, I think classes are a good option for some people...There are two parts to a language IMO. metadata (data about data) and goo. Metadata is things like definitions, grammar explanations. It explains what real data CAN mean. For example the same word (とんでもない) has two completely opposite meanings which are derived from the context.
You cannot speak Japanese with just metadata. It is like getting someone to study a very detailed book on swimming until it is etched into his brain, then expecting them to be able to swim. What you need is the goo that connects all the metadata together, well actually you just need goo. A native speaker has no idea on grammar rules or minute differences between words yet they can speak virtually perfectly.
The way to get goo is (interesting) contextful input, which is to say data. The data teaches you the way the language connects together. There are not that many responses to a given situation not many ways to keep speaking after a certain sentence. Words and grammar are tools that only work in certain contexts and situations. After seeing them used over and over again, you can use them in the same fashion. In actual fact, a word cannot be defined by a definition, rather it is the sum of it's uses. To be able to speak well you need to have these uses hardwired into your brain from exposure.
This is where contextful items in your SRS are so useful. You remember the context in which the sentence was used and the link between it and it's usage/effect become stronger, eventually making it available to you when you speak.
Goo (data) alone is a sure fire way to become a great speaker of the language, however it is not the fastest. A swimmer who swims 12 hours a day probably won't become a world class swimmer on that alone. Analysis of her style, feedback on where she is slightly off and such help the swimmer. They do not teach her how to swim well, however, they allow her to gain more data when she practices swimming. She is aware of issues with her style and can use the data she gains from then to more effectively swim.
You can learn words and grammar without ever reading a definition. I have done this many times. However, it is faster to use definitions to help you. This doesn't then mean you can use the word, it is still metadata, however it allows you to understand real data better which means you will be able to use it sooner. In other words it increases the efficiency of your data gathering.
Metadata alone though is not enough. It can seem that way in the beginning when you only know one word for "but". However, when you know 10-15 you can't think your way to the correct one to use based on the context.
So it seems like you have learnt a lot of metadata, but not inputed much data and thus lack goo
2009-08-24, 6:38 pm
Also, with swimming, getting data (swimming) involves output (moving your body). However, language is different. Getting data (listening/reading) doesn't involve output. There is such a thing as speaking skill. So even with all the goo in the world, there still will be ramp up process, however generally responses should be popping into your head even if you can't enunciate them.
2009-08-24, 6:42 pm
Now that the debate has run its course, when should one start outputting? You need the grammatical/vocab base to be able to hold a conversation. Or should someone attempt to do it right from the beginning?
As an aside, I can hold a basic, but fluent conversation in Vietnamese. I trip up a lot when it comes to more complicated topics, so I revert to English. But with my limited grammar I can still make conversation.
As an aside, I can hold a basic, but fluent conversation in Vietnamese. I trip up a lot when it comes to more complicated topics, so I revert to English. But with my limited grammar I can still make conversation.
Tobberoth Wrote:Get drunk, speak Japanese while drunk, nothing is more effective.Noone actually noticed this part of Tobb's post, but its surprisingly true. My friend got drunk while in Japan and he was spewing all sorts of Japanese I had no idea he ever knew. He probably wasn't aware of it either! =)
2009-08-24, 9:10 pm
@Thermal
I try to immerse myself for a few hours a day. I'm at the point where simple conversational devices can be easily comprehended. I can even get the meaning of words from context if the conversation is on my level. I realized that knowing vocab and actually being able to distinguish vocab by ear are two different things and so I do a lot of audio based drilling. The contextful data I input comes in the form of subs2srs decks. I've also, recently, begun mining from news sites.
Please helping me to learn more goos
I try to immerse myself for a few hours a day. I'm at the point where simple conversational devices can be easily comprehended. I can even get the meaning of words from context if the conversation is on my level. I realized that knowing vocab and actually being able to distinguish vocab by ear are two different things and so I do a lot of audio based drilling. The contextful data I input comes in the form of subs2srs decks. I've also, recently, begun mining from news sites.
Please helping me to learn more goos
2009-08-24, 10:36 pm
Nii87 Wrote:I can confirm this, as it works just as well with french. I have no idea why this works, I can only imagine it's the same effect as how I can understand much better when I'm tired. I can only imagine it'll kill your accent in Japanese though. French you're supposed to slur everything anyway, but I think japanese would be more difficult to keep so robotic.Tobberoth Wrote:Get drunk, speak Japanese while drunk, nothing is more effective.Noone actually noticed this part of Tobb's post, but its surprisingly true.
2009-08-24, 10:45 pm
@sup3rbon: You've apparently never spoken to someone from Osaka, or an old man.
2009-08-24, 10:50 pm
A combination of 焼酎 + meth are best for most conversations, get with the program.
2009-08-24, 11:09 pm
kazelee Wrote:@ThermalWhat percentage of cards in your deck are contextful and you remember the context when you review? Even if you using subs2srs if you don't know the context in which the sentence was said then it isn't much better than random sentences from a grammar book. I believe that adding sentences that you know the context of to your SRS is the best way to short-cut to good speaking without getting a massive amount of input.
I try to immerse myself for a few hours a day. I'm at the point where simple conversational devices can be easily comprehended. I can even get the meaning of words from context if the conversation is on my level. I realized that knowing vocab and actually being able to distinguish vocab by ear are two different things and so I do a lot of audio based drilling. The contextful data I input comes in the form of subs2srs decks. I've also, recently, begun mining from news sites.
Please helping me to learn more goos
Other stuff you can do to help is get Japanese input without English breaks. If you intersperse your immersion with English you wont build up a Japanese mode. This is where you naturally think in Japanese.
You can speak to yourself to practice the skill of speaking. Just don't use grammar to speak, keep things simple and easy and say what pops into your head. Don't force it too much either, just try express what you would say in English in Japanese. EG. Hmm I'm hungry, what will I eat? I could eat the pasta I ate last night again..
Another big one is using a JJ dictionary. This is where you learn how to explain concepts well, since that is all the dictionary is.
I believe dictation for sentences that are more complex that ones you would currently say is very effective. After you write it out you can almost feel it has become a part of you. Shadowing also has value.
You can also try listening to the same audio over and over. This is great for listening and also really gets the sentences in your head.
Do writing. You should be able to write well before you can speak well. I post on Japanese websites and try and avoid being noticed as a non-native. It's a fun and difficult game.
Do you do production and recognition? I think doing both is quite good for improving speaking.
Obviously anything to make your environment more Japanese will help.
Edited: 2009-08-24, 11:10 pm
2009-08-24, 11:21 pm
Kazelee,
I apologize. Based on your first post, it seemed like you weren't following the conversation, nor could make a response. If that were the case, it makes sense to get you input comprehension at a higher level. But you are following, and know what to say. Nothing you do with your SRS or studying is going to help here outside of speaking out loud. Hell, you probably do that anyway.
Guess Tobberoth has the best advice. You've got the goods, now you got to flaunt it. Get on Skype and get to talking. Get on a microphone and just talk.
As always, add a grain of salt to my advice, as I'm at a lower level than you. Now excuse me while I go give pointers to Tiger Woods.
I apologize. Based on your first post, it seemed like you weren't following the conversation, nor could make a response. If that were the case, it makes sense to get you input comprehension at a higher level. But you are following, and know what to say. Nothing you do with your SRS or studying is going to help here outside of speaking out loud. Hell, you probably do that anyway.
Guess Tobberoth has the best advice. You've got the goods, now you got to flaunt it. Get on Skype and get to talking. Get on a microphone and just talk.
As always, add a grain of salt to my advice, as I'm at a lower level than you. Now excuse me while I go give pointers to Tiger Woods.
2009-08-24, 11:49 pm
Nukemarine Wrote:Now excuse me while I go give pointers to Tiger Woods.Genius! I love your posts man.
2009-08-25, 4:27 am
It took me two moths in Japan to get to any kind of conversational level that I was even remotely happy with.
Every conversation I had for the first month was about the same as what the OP described.
It got easier pretty soon though and when I was in Japan for 1½ monts this summer, I only spoke Japanese. Improved a lot this time too but I still suck..
It is all about practice!
Every conversation I had for the first month was about the same as what the OP described.
It got easier pretty soon though and when I was in Japan for 1½ monts this summer, I only spoke Japanese. Improved a lot this time too but I still suck..
It is all about practice!
2009-08-25, 5:55 am
I haven't been around lately, studying, and Tobberoth seems to have taken over my peeves anyway.
Anyway, I teach English for a living. Most students we get from Asia who come to Australia to learn English have already done the ten thousand sentences / input only method. The whole method of learning languages in Asian countries is rote learning and little to no output. Lots of reading and exercises. They write a few essays or something but they hardly ever speak. Some of my elementary students have been learning English for 10 years! Imagine that, ten years, go to an English speaking country and BAM! straight into elementary class. So of course I have never believed in the input only method, or even the input first method.
I know veritable encyclopaedias of grammar and vocab who can't string a sentence together. They can tell you how a sentence may be wrong, and they can understand written sentences but speaking and listening fail them. I also know students with a woeful grasp of grammar and vocab but who are masters of communication. They can make you understand anything at an elementary level. A Colombian woman I teach is like this. She loves talking, in any language, so she does it a lot and it shows. She could live easily here with her elementary level knowledge.
So the moral is output often and early, don't play a catch up game. Without using your language actively for something it's just masturbation.
Anyway, I teach English for a living. Most students we get from Asia who come to Australia to learn English have already done the ten thousand sentences / input only method. The whole method of learning languages in Asian countries is rote learning and little to no output. Lots of reading and exercises. They write a few essays or something but they hardly ever speak. Some of my elementary students have been learning English for 10 years! Imagine that, ten years, go to an English speaking country and BAM! straight into elementary class. So of course I have never believed in the input only method, or even the input first method.
I know veritable encyclopaedias of grammar and vocab who can't string a sentence together. They can tell you how a sentence may be wrong, and they can understand written sentences but speaking and listening fail them. I also know students with a woeful grasp of grammar and vocab but who are masters of communication. They can make you understand anything at an elementary level. A Colombian woman I teach is like this. She loves talking, in any language, so she does it a lot and it shows. She could live easily here with her elementary level knowledge.
So the moral is output often and early, don't play a catch up game. Without using your language actively for something it's just masturbation.
2009-08-25, 6:51 am
phauna Wrote:I haven't been around lately, studying, and Tobberoth seems to have taken over my peeves anyway.I'm actually beginning to to see this. The more I output and get corrections the better I'm able to communicate.
Anyway, I teach English for a living. Most students we get from Asia who come to Australia to learn English have already done the ten thousand sentences / input only method. The whole method of learning languages in Asian countries is rote learning and little to no output. Lots of reading and exercises. They write a few essays or something but they hardly ever speak. Some of my elementary students have been learning English for 10 years! Imagine that, ten years, go to an English speaking country and BAM! straight into elementary class. So of course I have never believed in the input only method, or even the input first method.
I know veritable encyclopaedias of grammar and vocab who can't string a sentence together. They can tell you how a sentence may be wrong, and they can understand written sentences but speaking and listening fail them. I also know students with a woeful grasp of grammar and vocab but who are masters of communication. They can make you understand anything at an elementary level. A Colombian woman I teach is like this. She loves talking, in any language, so she does it a lot and it shows. She could live easily here with her elementary level knowledge.
So the moral is output often and early, don't play a catch up game. Without using your language actively for something it's just masturbation.
The key I guess is to get corrections on everything you get wrong. Like we do to children when they say things wrong, we parrot it back using the correct phrasing.
It teaches you very fast how to use what it is you need to to say x.
2009-08-25, 9:26 am
The best way to get good output is controlled self-study that balances structure and spontaneity. Learn the aspects of the language with proactive, flexible attention and progress from there to 'real' scenarios. Develop that working memory, especially long-term working memory and retrieval structures, from the onset.
I'm speaking in absolutes here too now! I'm working from a position of 'starting from scratch purely through self-study' so I won't be throwing vicarious anecdotes at you or approaching the situation with the 'curse of knowledge' that some have. ;p
I'm speaking in absolutes here too now! I'm working from a position of 'starting from scratch purely through self-study' so I won't be throwing vicarious anecdotes at you or approaching the situation with the 'curse of knowledge' that some have. ;p
Edited: 2009-08-25, 9:27 am
2009-08-26, 12:26 am
ropsta Wrote:That curse of knowledge thing has ruined my life.It's ruined nest0r's virtual life too. "What, you haven't read all of my comments and followed the links and read those too? So you don't know what I'm talking about, and probably wouldn't agree even if you did?"
2009-08-26, 12:32 am
nest0r Wrote:Speaking of which... *stretches* Ah... Thus am I reborn.ropsta Wrote:That curse of knowledge thing has ruined my life.It's ruined nest0r's virtual life too. "What, you haven't read all of my comments and followed the links and read those too? So you don't know what I'm talking about, and probably wouldn't agree even if you did?"
2009-08-26, 12:46 am
ruiner Wrote:My head imploded and exploded simultaneously. From nest0r to ruiner an instant. Even if the ruiner is not nest0r, forever in my mind he shall be....as... stuffissis... n... junk...nest0r Wrote:Speaking of which... *stretches* Ah... Thus am I reborn.ropsta Wrote:That curse of knowledge thing has ruined my life.It's ruined nest0r's virtual life too. "What, you haven't read all of my comments and followed the links and read those too? So you don't know what I'm talking about, and probably wouldn't agree even if you did?"
I guess I should stick to art huh ｆ（＾＾；）
2009-08-26, 1:05 am
Eyeless disembodied zombie heads are more deserving of the name ruiner.