The truth is that you will never be able to study and memorize every single kanji that you will ever encounter for your life. The more kanji you study, the less useful each additional kanji becomes, and once you reach a certain point, you are much better off just learning kanji from things you read rather than trying to learn them from a list. The idea that you're ever going to learn 8,500 characters is pretty silly, and there's a strange belief that you need ridiculous amounts of kanji to read "scholarly" or "classical" things, which really isn't true. Depending on what you're reading there's probably a set of specific kanji you need to know, but even then it's not going to be efficient to just get some list from a random place that has no connection to what you're studying.

The additional name kanji are not a big concern, IMO, most of them aren't used that often (in names) and if they are, the name will probably have furigana.

katsuo Wrote:Incidentally the 196 list includes 9 kanji not on the 191 list (柿哺楷睦釜錮賂毀勾), and drops 4 which were on it (哨聘諜憚). It would make sense because, to me at least, those nine are a lot more familiar than the other four.

It all just seems so arbitrary to me -- 哨 was used on the staff room chalkboard in the school I worked at in Japan, and 憚る and 諜報 are both words I know. On the other hand, 錮, 勾, and 毀 are totally unknown to me. I'm sure they show up in some things, but apparently not in anything I read. The list is kind of useless in any case and I'm not sure these changes will really bring much improvement.

seppukuh Wrote:(
Pass the JLPT1 with only these 7 漢字:
其呟曾炒睨籠茹

err Isn't 曾 just another way of writing 曽. They are both synonyms and homonyms with each other?

Re: your rant

You are aware that there is a list called 人名用 right? It's a superset of 常用. 常用 is just a list for words. Expanding the list greatly would make it meaningless. It is meant as a bare minimum for literacy. If it listed every kanji you might ever encounter in regular life, what exactly is the point? How would that differ from the index of a kanji dictionary? Even Japanese natives regularly encounter kanji that they don't know. Most Japanese people cannot read place names from areas that they are not familiar with (ex someone who has never been to Osaka probably cannot guess the reading of 枚方市 or 私市 or 御堂筋線). Many Japanese names cannot be read by Japanese natives without furigana. This is the nature of Japanese, not the fault of Joyo.

Japanese people do care about the list, since it is what is required for primary and secondary education (教育漢字 for primary, the remainder of 常用 in middle and high school). That Joyo might not be enough for university entrance exams has to do more with the competitive native of entrance exams than with the kanji list being insufficient.

The list was made as an aid for educators and publishers, not for foreigners to study all the kanji at once. Complaining that it isn't good enough for a purpose it wasn't intended for is kind of silly.

Also, 誰 is on the shin-joyo list, as are most other characters you're probably worried about.

kapalama Wrote:The joyo lists are silly, and no one in Japan actually gives a damn about them, other than the people putting the lists together. College entrance exams ignore them, so students who want to get into college ignore Joyo Kanji too. it would be far better to extend the character list to a large number to regularize forms rather than restricting the list to a subset of what literate people actually use. It makes the "not in the joyo list" Kanji very difficult to benkyou shite oku. The government, which is normally in the list of setting standards as it does it all other standards and measures related subjects, has really dropped the ball on this, and is stuck in the mindset that started the whole toyo/joyo kanji list thing. They badly need to read the literature of linguistics to get out of the normative, and return to the descriptive. Teach what people use.

As foreigners we are stuck, because we are told by the Japanese Government that knowing these Kanji makes us literate. But then we turn on the TV, and within five minutes we see completely new characters not on the list.

As long as the word for something as basic as "who" is not taught as a standard (in this case meaning Joyo) Kanji, the list is actually counter productive: it is a weapon to keep people from literacy, not enable them to reach it.

The flaw is not in memorizing the jouyou kanji, but in making it the entire basis of one's studies. After exposing yourself (the general "you", I mean) to Japanese for at least six months, if you are still unfamiliar with 誰 or 俺, you are really selecting some shitty resources.

yudantaiteki Wrote:The truth is that you will never be able to study and memorize every single kanji that you will ever encounter for your life. The more kanji you study, the less useful each additional kanji becomes, and once you reach a certain point, you are much better off just learning kanji from things you read rather than trying to learn them from a list. The idea that you're ever going to learn 8,500 characters is pretty silly, and there's a strange belief that you need ridiculous amounts of kanji to read "scholarly" or "classical" things, which really isn't true. Depending on what you're reading there's probably a set of specific kanji you need to know, but even then it's not going to be efficient to just get some list from a random place that has no connection to what you're studying.

I agree with this, although I shouldn't really be talking because I didn't learn kanji using Heisig in the first place. But I just, for the first time, discovered "乖" and "戮" while reading the other day, and I think it would be utterly, utterly useless to try to memorize these kanji before I had actually encountered them in an actual sentence/compound, simply because they appear so rare I wouldn't even know whether or not there would be any point in which I'd seriously need to use them.

It's like memorizing words in English like "potation".. Okay, it's interesting, and may help you if you're reading literature from the 1800s, but I would never recommend a foreign language learner devote their time to learning words like this unless they wanted to take 20 years to learn the language, or if they already have an excellent understanding of the language already.

I guessed potation would be the process of making water potable.

wrong

Jarvik7 Wrote:I guessed potation would be the process of making water potable.

wrong

I thought it was a ye olden word for "potion" at first, myself, because the book I saw it in was about a crazy scientist. Or perhaps it was a doctor. I don't really remember anymore.

Tincture is a good ye olde word for potion I guess..

Google tells me: "potation - 喝;一口;一杯, 飲料;酒, 縱酒"

The act of drinking (esp. alcohol).

[Katsuo]

yudantaiteki Wrote:It all just seems so arbitrary to me -- 哨 was used on the staff room chalkboard in the school I worked at in Japan, and 憚る and 諜報 are both words I know. On the other hand, 錮, 勾, and 毀 are totally unknown to me. I'm sure they show up in some things, but apparently not in anything I read.

If you wish to read the committee's deliberations on 錮 and 毀 the document is now available (see 第37回)

mirina Wrote:It's like memorizing words in English like "potation".. Okay, it's interesting, and may help you if you're reading literature from the 1800s, but I would never recommend a foreign language learner devote their time to learning words like this unless they wanted to take 20 years to learn the language, or if they already have an excellent understanding of the language already.

Hmmm... I think I'm gonna ressurect that quaint word and use it more frequently among friends and acquaintances since it's a word that describes most of us are doing. Potations galore!

While I would recommend my ESL friends to learn basic vocabulary as a first priority, I wouldn't discourage them from learning some of these archaic words in their vocabulary pool, even early on if they have a passion of learning the language and discovering classical literature.

seppukuh Wrote:Ok, that's the merged list here. All of those together make up just 585 漢字. An overlap of 10% and only about 20% more 漢字 is pretty nice:
乍乎亂于亞亦仍份佔佛你來俐俠俯俱倆們值假傢傲傳價儘兑兒兔內兩其冰凜凰别劃勞勻匝匪區卡卦卻厩參另叮吞吧吳吵吶吼呀呟呢咸哇哈哥哪哭售啊啦喩單嗅嗎嘴嚴圍圓圖團堡堯堺塘塙塡增壓壞壤壬壯夠夭奶她妝姶娛娩婁媽孩學它宕實寫寬寶將專對尹屬岨岱巖巷帶幫庚廚廠廢廣廳弗弼彈彌彎彥很從徠德徽怎怕恣您惡惧惱惺慄慘憚憬懂應懷戀戈戊戎戟戰戲戶扁扭找抓拉拼拿捲掉掬揀揉搏搖摑摔摯摸擊擔據攤攪收效敞數斌斷旁昊晄晚曉曾會杢柁查栴桌桓梛條梳椛椴楚楳榮槇樂樓樞樟樣橙橡橫檔檢檮櫂歐歡步歲歷歹每毘氣沉沓涉涌淘淨淺渠渣渴游湘溫滯滿漑漣漲澗濟濤瀉瀦灣炒烤焰煌熙燒營爛爭爸猷獨珀珂琥璧甑甜產畫當瘋瘍瘦發皂盃盈盡眨眷眾睛睨瞄矧砧硲碌礦祁祿禮禰禱禾稟稱穰窗竟筷簞籃籠粂絕絲經綠緬緻縣縱總繡繫繼續缺羚羞聊聲聽肚胖腦腳腿臉與舉舊舛艮苒苧茹荊荏莊莱菟萊萠萱葎董蒋蔀蔣蕾藥處虛號虻蛛蜘蟬蟲蠟袁裙裝褲襄襯覺觀訃詹諧諷證讀變讓豐豬貪賈賣賤賽趕跑跟踪輕轉轍辣辦辯迴迺逛逾遙邊鄉醗醫醬釉釋釧鈷鉤鉾錄錢錶鍍鍔鎗鐙鐵鐸閏閒關隨險雖雙雜雞靈靜靠鞋韃韋頰顆顏顚顯餘驍驗體髮鬱魯鴇鴛鴦鴫鵠鷗麥麵麼黃黑默點黨齊龝

Not sure what went wrong with seppukuh's merge, but his list is only 467 characters long. Here's the 585-character merged list of remaining 常用漢字/jouyou kanji, 人名用漢字/jinmeiyou kanji, jlpt1, 漢検1.5級/kanken level 1.5, 旧字体/舊字體/kyuujitai and RTH traditional (I suppose RTH 1 since 2 isn't out yet):

楷錮哺傲喩嗅恣惧慄憚憬拉摯曾璧瘍籠緻羞訃諧貪踪辣鬱乎亦俐俠俱其凜凰厩吞堯堺塙塡壬娩宕巖巷庚彌徠徽惺戊戟捲掬摑昊晄梛椛楚槇樟橙櫂毘沓湘漣焰煌熙珀珂琥瘦砧祁祿禰禱禾稟穰簞繡繫羚萊萠萱董蔣蕾蟬蠟遙醬釉釧閏頰顚驍魯鷗呟炒睨茹乍儘劃匝匪卦塘姶婁岨岱廠弗弼戎摸斌杢柁栴桓椴楳橡檮涌淘渠漑澗濤瀦猷甑甜盃盈矧硲礦粂緬腿舛艮苒苧荊荏莱菟葎蒋蔀虻蛛蜘轍迺醗鈷鉤鉾鍍鍔鎗鐙鐸韃鴇鴛鴦鴫鵠龝乘亂亞佛來假傳僞價儉兒兩册剩劍劑劔勞勳勵勸區卷參單嚴囑圈圍圓圖團墮壓壘壞壤壯壹壻奧奬孃學寢實寫寶將對屬峽帶廢廣廳彈徑從惠惡惱愼慘應懷戀戰戲拂拔拜挾插搖擇擔據擧擴攝效敍敕數斷晝曉會條棧榮樂樣檢櫻權歐歡歸殘氣沒淨淺溪滯滿潛澁澤濕濟濱瀧灣燒營爐爭爲犧獨獵獻瓣畫當疊癡發盡眞碎祕禪禮稱稻穗穩竊竝粹絲經縣縱總繩繪繼續纖缺罐聲聽肅腦膽臟臺與舊莊莖藏藥處號螢蟲蠶蠻衞襃覺覽觀觸謠證譯譽讀變讓讚豐豫貳賣贊踐輕轉辨辭辯遞遲邊醉醫釀釋錢鎭鐵鑄鑛關陷隨險隱隸雙雜靈靜顏顯飜餘騷驅驗驛髓體髮鬪鷄鹽麥默點黨齊齋齒齡龜于仍份佔你俯倆們值傢兑兔內冰别勻卡卻另叮吧吳吵吶吼呀呢咸哇哈哥哪哭售啊啦嗎嘴堡增夠夭奶她妝娛媽孩它寬專尹幫廚彎彥很德怎怕您懂戈戶扁扭找抓拼拿掉揀揉搏摔擊攤攪收敞旁晚查桌梳樓樞橫檔步歲歷歹每沉涉渣渴游溫漲瀉烤爛爸產瘋皂眨眷眾睛瞄碌窗竟筷籃絕綠聊肚胖腳臉舉虛袁裙裝褲襄襯詹諷豬賈賤賽趕跑跟辦迴逛逾鄉錄錶閒雖雞靠鞋韋顆麵麼黃黑

And the sorted list (on code number probably, not sure if it is useful):

乍乎乘亂于亞亦仍份佔佛你來俐俠俯俱倆們值假傢傲傳僞價儉儘兑兒兔內兩其册冰凜凰别剩劃劍劑劔勞勳勵勸勻匝匪區卡卦卷卻厩參另叮吞吧吳吵吶吼呀呟呢咸哇哈哥哪哭哺售啊啦喩單嗅嗎嘴嚴囑圈圍圓圖團堡堯堺塘塙塡增墮壓壘壞壤壬壯壹壻夠夭奧奬奶她妝姶娛娩婁媽孃孩學它宕寢實寫寬寶將專對尹屬岨岱峽巖巷帶幫庚廚廠廢廣廳弗弼彈彌彎彥很徑從徠德徽怎怕恣您惠惡惧惱惺愼慄慘憚憬懂應懷戀戈戊戎戟戰戲戶扁扭找抓拂拉拔拜拼拿挾捲掉掬揀揉插搏搖摑摔摯摸擇擊擔據擧擴攝攤攪收效敍敕敞數斌斷旁昊晄晚晝曉曾會杢柁查栴桌桓梛條梳棧椛椴楚楳楷榮槇樂樓樞樟樣橙橡橫檔檢檮櫂櫻權歐歡步歲歷歸歹殘每毘氣沉沒沓涉涌淘淨淺渠渣渴游湘溪溫滯滿漑漣漲潛澁澗澤濕濟濤濱瀉瀦瀧灣炒烤焰煌熙燒營爐爛爭爲爸犧猷獨獵獻珀珂琥璧瓣甑甜產畫當疊瘋瘍瘦癡發皂盃盈盡眞眨眷眾睛睨瞄矧砧硲碌碎礦祁祕祿禪禮禰禱禾稟稱稻穗穩穰窗竊竝竟筷簞籃籠粂粹絕絲經綠緬緻縣縱總繡繩繪繫繼續纖缺罐羚羞聊聲聽肅肚胖腦腳腿膽臉臟臺與舉舊舛艮苒苧茹荊荏莊莖莱菟萊萠萱葎董蒋蔀蔣蕾藏藥處虛號虻蛛蜘螢蟬蟲蠟蠶蠻衞袁裙裝褲襃襄襯覺覽觀觸訃詹諧諷謠證譯譽讀變讓讚豐豫豬貪貳賈賣賤賽贊趕跑跟踐踪輕轉轍辣辦辨辭辯迴迺逛逾遙遞遲邊鄉醉醗醫醬釀釉釋釧鈷鉤鉾錄錢錮錶鍍鍔鎗鎭鐙鐵鐸鑄鑛閏閒關陷隨險隱隸雖雙雜雞靈靜靠鞋韃韋頰顆顏顚顯飜餘騷驅驍驗驛髓體髮鬪鬱魯鴇鴛鴦鴫鵠鷄鷗鹽麥麵麼黃黑默點黨齊齋齒齡龜龝

Edits: 1. Added sorted list. 2. Added the three missing jouyou2010 kanji not in RTK3 nor seppukuh's merged list: 楷錮哺 (last one also in the yojijukugo set)
NB. ignored the 'Heisig simplification' of the kanji.

Katsuo Wrote:

yudantaiteki Wrote:It all just seems so arbitrary to me -- 哨 was used on the staff room chalkboard in the school I worked at in Japan, and 憚る and 諜報 are both words I know. On the other hand, 錮, 勾, and 毀 are totally unknown to me. I'm sure they show up in some things, but apparently not in anything I read.

If you wish to read the committee's deliberations on 錮 and 毀 the document is now available (see 第37回)

I finally looked at this; I have to say that this section is pretty accurate at capturing the pointlessness of all of this:
ですから，確かに「錮」と「固」では発音は同じだけれども，意味はもちろん違うわけ
です。しかし，法令用語にしか使わないものについては，わざわざ本当にこれにしか使わ
ないものを追加するのはどうなのか，私としては，いわゆる代用漢字かもしれないけれど
も，「固」に，法令の方が改正されれば一番いいのではないかと思っております。
「毀損」の「毀」についても，「瑕疵」と同じように易しい言い換えができれば問題が
かし
ない。どうしても使いたければ今のようにルビを付けて使うということで，常用漢字表の
中にこういう難しい字が入ってくるのは，ちょっと違和感を感じるのです。

yudantaiteki Wrote:It all just seems so arbitrary to me -- 哨 was used on the staff room chalkboard in the school I worked at in Japan, and 憚る and 諜報 are both words I know. On the other hand, 錮, 勾, and 毀 are totally unknown to me. I'm sure they show up in some things, but apparently not in anything I read. The list is kind of useless in any case and I'm not sure these changes will really bring much improvement.

Well, i knew 勾 when i was barely N4 level. It's in the word 勾配 (incline, slope, gradient), a word i encountered mere months into learning japanese. I'm not boasting, I'm sure there are heaps of kanji you know that i don't (and may never learn). If you've never read engineering or geology (i'm guessing here) stuff, then i can imagine you've never run into the word. But its not super rare in my field.

OTOH, i didn't learn that kanji by studying it out of a list someone else made. I learned it when i encountered it in something i was reading (and decided it was a word i needed to know how to read). And whether this stuff should be taught to everyone in school or whether it should be learned later on by those going into fields that use those kanji is debatable. None of the japanese engineers i work with would have any trouble with the word, so unless you're worried that laymen can't read it, i'm not sure what gain there is in teaching it to everyone.

You can encouter 勾配 or 急勾配 also on traffic signs.

The other day i was watching BECK: The Movie and encountered "厠" funny that this kanji not in any of above-mentioned lists.

Taking into account the KanjiDevourer post. Do that list includes all the "2500 most used kanji in newspapers" or there's some still missing?.

Yuta73 Wrote:Taking into account the KanjiDevourer post. Do that list includes all the "2500 most used kanji in newspapers" or there's some still missing?.

Comparing against tangorin's 2500 most used kanji in newspapers, 50 are in the kanken1 list, but not in Heisig or the beforementioned 'merged list'. Whatever the use...

偕冤厦喘嗜囃姚姜峙崔嶌彭徘抒旛杞桝檄汪浙溥瀋焉煥甕瘤盧礒笏笘箏篆簑簗膠舩茗蓼蔡薔蜷謳贅趙鄒銕鍼闊魏鴈

KanjiDevourer Wrote:

Yuta73 Wrote:Taking into account the KanjiDevourer post. Do that list includes all the "2500 most used kanji in newspapers" or there's some still missing?.

Comparing against tangorin's 2500 most used kanji in newspapers, 50 are in the kanken1 list, but not in Heisig or the beforementioned 'merged list'. Whatever the use...

偕冤厦喘嗜囃姚姜峙崔嶌彭徘抒旛杞桝檄汪浙溥瀋焉煥甕瘤盧礒笏笘箏篆簑簗膠舩茗蓼蔡薔蜷謳贅趙鄒銕鍼闊魏鴈

Another list of kanji I hardly know at all. I recognize 囃し, 終焉, 誤謬, 薔薇, 謳う, 贅沢, 迂闊, and a couple of Chinese names but that's it. I suppose I should study more...

Hello Guys,

Does anyone have a list of the kanji mentioned in this thread with the Kunyoumi/Onyoumi/KoohiStory for all of these kanji? Maybe someone can write a script really quick to fetch these kanji/kunyoumi/onyoumi/KoohiStory

Ive searched a lot and found Cite's RTK4 List but it does not have these kanji. For those interested it is in this thread:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=7157

Thank you very much.

Just an idea that may be of interest.

I notice all these post RTK1 and 3 kanji, that inhabit the netherworld of unicode, are available through this site. I came across one today, and for want of anything better to do, plugged it in. 扨 didn't have a keyword so I tentatively christened it Wow and left it there.

I am not sure if Fabrice wants to have a portion of this site given over to RevTK 4, but I was thinking it would be fun to have a thread dedicated to all the weird kanji people find. We could discuss suitable keywords, their etymology (is that the right word), their meanings, how important they are, and all the other stuff people like to bicker about.

Who knows, having decent keywords might help somebody sometime, and I am sure somewhere out there, there is an unsung savant, sitting in his room, determined to ace the dreaded 漢検 1級. (Maybe, gentle reader it is you...)

Me I'm not so obsessed, but I would enjoy dipping into a thread like this from time to time, to see what people have discovered and how mad it has become. Let me know what you think.

Thanks. Yes the Cite_RTK4 excel sheet in the previous page has 700 kanji or so with the story. Im going to manually type all of the hiragana and kanji into this spreadsheet manually with my sensei and then share it. Is this the best sheet guys? Last chance before i type it in

Arigato!

KanjiDevourer Wrote:Comparing against tangorin's 2500 most used kanji in newspapers, 50 are in the kanken1 list, but not in Heisig or the beforementioned 'merged list'. Whatever the use...

I looked everywhere for this list like 6-9 months ago. Thanx for the head up. Time to see which ones are missing from my list.

[Katsuo]

animehunter123 Wrote:Thanks. Yes the Cite_RTK4 excel sheet in the previous page has 700 kanji or so with the story. Im going to manually type all of the hiragana and kanji into this spreadsheet manually with my sensei and then share it. Is this the best sheet guys? Last chance before i type it in

I've just added readings taken from KanjiDic to the spreadsheet. (Note: There are about 20 kanji from outside the JIS set of 6,355, and the readings for those aren't included.)

I took Katsuo's spreadsheet and added a new column with sample words for the kanjis that our sensei taught us. It was hard typing this by hand. This will help if you are using SRS and flashcards to learn a few words using the new kanji.

Here is the updated spreadsheet;
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?...4bHc&gid=0

Now I want to get the rest of the kanjis into this sheet someday.