Thora Wrote:@ Aphasiac - Are you saying that a degree in Japanese in the UK doesn't also require some non-language courses?

Yes, this correct. Here in Europe, you choose your degree subject at the start, and then studying nothing but that subject for 3 years.

Here is the uni Tykkylumi wants to go to, with a list of Japanese related courses:

http://www.sheffield.ac.uk/seas/undergra...sting.html

Again, I'd urge him to study something like "Linguistics and Japanese Studies" or Japanese + Any Other Subject, rather than just Japanese on its own.

Someone asked this same question on Japanguide recently (maybe it was Tykkylumi )?. Anyway someone posted this great link about becoming a Japanese translator:

http://www.gally.net/translation/gettingstarted.htm

Slightly off-topic, but in that link check out the reply from translator "Jenny Nazak" - her learning method sounds mighty familiar:

Quote:If pressed to explain how I learned enough Japanese in two years to become a translator, I would say 1) I am visually oriented, and readily took to kanji; and 2) I learned natural sentence patterns, and expanded my vocabulary, by supplementing textbooks with magazines and other material designed for native Japanese readers as soon as I was ready--maybe even before I was ready. I would listen to the radio and watch TV even when I was not yet able to understand one-tenth of what was being said, and in the same fashion I tackled magazines, manga, etc. (I also knew better than to try to force myself to slog through material in which I personally had no interest. Thus I inevitably chose manga or pop magazines over, say, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun.)

Thora Wrote:@ Aphasiac - Are you saying that a degree in Japanese in the UK doesn't also require some non-language courses?

aphasiac Wrote:Yes, this correct. Here in Europe, you choose your degree subject at the start, and then studying nothing but that subject for 3 years.

Here is the uni Tykkylumi wants to go to, with a list of Japanese related courses: [snip]
Again, I'd urge him to study something like "Linguistics and Japanese Studies" or Japanese + Any Other Subject, rather than just Japanese on its own.

I didn't see a language only program (but perhaps you meant something broader by "language".) The Japanese Studies program includes language courses (80% in 1st year, only 30% in 3rd and 4th year) as well as Japan-related courses. The latter cover a range of disciplines.

As you say, in addition to a single degree in Japanese Studies, they also offer:
* a dual honours degree (such as Jap./Business or Jap./Linguistics); and
* courses to students from other faculties.

Seems similar to North American programs I've seen. If Japanese is the sole goal, then I personally would opt for more intensive language study and then learn about those other topics... in Japanese! That would be better for a translator. But sometimes degree and real world requirements don't exactly mesh do they

I studied Japanese in Japan formally at language school for a year (5 days a week, 5 hours a day) starting from absolutely nothing.

After 6 months I was at the same level as those studying Japanese at their second and third years at UK unis - which wasn't actually that high. Conversational but not really able to describe things in huge detail or able to say the same thing in different ways.
After my year was up and I came back to the Sheffield, I got to know some final year students at Sheffield Uni and their Japanese was OK, but nowhere near translator level. In my opinion some of them could probably scrape JLPT2 but they'd have to try.

My point?
Japanese at uni as a degree doesn't seem to give you a huge competancy in the language. If you want to be a translator then you'd most likely also have to do a masters and spend at least a year in Japan.
But as those before me have said, translating doesn't generally pay that much. I know a few gaijin translators in Japan and they make an OK living but they had to get seperate degrees in order to get a job. One had a degree in fashion and started translating as a reporter for fashion magazines and fashion shoots and the other got an MBA and started for BMW.

If I was you, I'd take a normal degree and study in your own time. It's hard, but if you do it then you can easily surpass those learning at uni. When I was in Japan I slept through/skipped a lot of lessons and still ended up better than most uni students.

Naz

NastyNaz Wrote:I studied Japanese in Japan formally at language school for a year (5 days a week, 5 hours a day) starting from absolutely nothing.

After 6 months I was at the same level as those studying Japanese at their second and third years at UK unis - which wasn't actually that high. Conversational but not really able to describe things in huge detail or able to say the same thing in different ways.
After my year was up and I came back to the Sheffield, I got to know some final year students at Sheffield Uni and their Japanese was OK, but nowhere near translator level. In my opinion some of them could probably scrape JLPT2 but they'd have to try.

My point?
Japanese at uni as a degree doesn't seem to give you a huge competancy in the language. If you want to be a translator then you'd most likely also have to do a masters and spend at least a year in Japan.
But as those before me have said, translating doesn't generally pay that much. I know a few gaijin translators in Japan and they make an OK living but they had to get seperate degrees in order to get a job. One had a degree in fashion and started translating as a reporter for fashion magazines and fashion shoots and the other got an MBA and started for BMW.

If I was you, I'd take a normal degree and study in your own time. It's hard, but if you do it then you can easily surpass those learning at uni. When I was in Japan I slept through/skipped a lot of lessons and still ended up better than most uni students.

Naz

And on the other hand, you will only get as much from a degree as you put into it. Sure, many students won't reach a high level after taking a degree in a language, but some do. And those are the students that put in a lot of extra time outside of class, and going beyond course requirements.

And there's also the quality of the program to consider. Some places don't expect much. Others have you reading and translating literature and conducting classes solely in the target language by the fourth year. So it depends.

I've spoken to a couple translators, and read some of their blogs, and the ones that get a lot of work tend to have done a bachelors degree in a technical field in their native language. For example, they studied electrical engineering and are now translating engineering documents. They studied chemistry and are now translating medical and pharmaceutical related documents. I was reading a blog of a guy who majored in engineering then got a masters in translation.

If you want to learn Japanese, you don't need to do it at a university. Save your money and four years of your life by just studying at home and going to Japan for one year. Don't think you need to go to university either, it's usually an expensive inefficient rip off compared to the autodidactic route. Most people just don't question whether the product they're buying (a university education) is worth the payments they're making compared to the alternatives.

If you want to learn ABOUT Japan, and are thinking of having an *academic* career in Japanese culture, history, linguistics, or something related, then go ahead and major in Japanese.

bflatnine Wrote:

NastyNaz Wrote:I studied Japanese in Japan formally at language school for a year (5 days a week, 5 hours a day) starting from absolutely nothing.

After 6 months I was at the same level as those studying Japanese at their second and third years at UK unis - which wasn't actually that high. Conversational but not really able to describe things in huge detail or able to say the same thing in different ways.
After my year was up and I came back to the Sheffield, I got to know some final year students at Sheffield Uni and their Japanese was OK, but nowhere near translator level. In my opinion some of them could probably scrape JLPT2 but they'd have to try.

My point?
Japanese at uni as a degree doesn't seem to give you a huge competancy in the language. If you want to be a translator then you'd most likely also have to do a masters and spend at least a year in Japan.
But as those before me have said, translating doesn't generally pay that much. I know a few gaijin translators in Japan and they make an OK living but they had to get seperate degrees in order to get a job. One had a degree in fashion and started translating as a reporter for fashion magazines and fashion shoots and the other got an MBA and started for BMW.

If I was you, I'd take a normal degree and study in your own time. It's hard, but if you do it then you can easily surpass those learning at uni. When I was in Japan I slept through/skipped a lot of lessons and still ended up better than most uni students.

Naz

And on the other hand, you will only get as much from a degree as you put into it. Sure, many students won't reach a high level after taking a degree in a language, but some do. And those are the students that put in a lot of extra time outside of class, and going beyond course requirements.

And there's also the quality of the program to consider. Some places don't expect much. Others have you reading and translating literature and conducting classes solely in the target language by the fourth year. So it depends.

I read about half of the replies given on that site...

It appears there's two schools of thought; 1. Techinical Quals aswell as language ability = Job 2. Good language ability + just keep on keeping on and eventually you'll pick up what you need to know = job.

And both sides of the argument have had good success with the different routes they took to becoming a translator. After reading all that, i'm of the opinion that either is a viable route so long as you do what you have to do to get there.

Something else I took away from it is that one of the biggest hurdles you'll encounter in the translation field is not your 能力 in your target language but in your NATIVE language that can really hold you back from doing good translations.

For those without technical qualifications wanting to break into translation something that was mentioned a lot was taking translation tests of the agency you are applying to. They care about little else. If you can do a competent translation of it, they will throw you some work.

I hate to bump an old topic (one of my own, nonetheless) but I just got round to reading everything and it's made me consider what to do again.

I was originally going to do Japanese and Linguistics after reading this but after reading some requirements for translating jobs I've realised it may be more beneficial to do single-honours Japanese without the linguistics and instead learn more languages in my spare time to aid myself.

Thoughts?

Learning more languages doesn't get you more money, it just increases the size of your potential pool of clients. Learning multiple languages spreads you out pretty thin too. Honors Japanese prepares you for an academic career - you don't "learn more Japanese", you learn to research and write papers about it.

Your best option is to major in a technical or financial field, minor in Japanese, and get a translation certification if your university offers one. Most translation jobs are either technical or financial documents, so just being good at Japanese isn't enough. You need to know the subject matter and how to write about it in English.

I'm studying mathematics at university here in the UK and hoping to do a PhD in Japan. It seems to be the optimal thing for me.

If you can learn Japanese and another subject too, surely that'd be best?

I think a lot of replies here are missing the point somewhat. If you want to do Japanese, then you should jolly well do Japanese. There's no point in saying "Oh, do something technical" - well what if you don't want to do something technical? What if spending 3/4 years of your life doing something completely dull like Economics or Linguistics makes you want to rip out your eyes? What if you can't do anything else 'technical'?

There is absolutely no point - none at all - wasting time and money doing something you will not enjoy, it will be reflected in your grades, and doing a rubbish, dull degree will lead into a rubbish, dull job (as it will obviously be in a related field), unfortunately it isn't the case that you just slog and grind your way through 'only' 3 years of boredom and difficulty and at the end is fairies and rainbows.

Third, many, many people do arts degrees - all your arguments would apply to History, English, Classics, Philosophy, Literature etc. Do the tens of thousands of people who do these degrees all end up academics, or jobless? No, they do not. There are many jobs that just require a bachelor degree of any kind, things such as marketing come to mind.

And that isn't even to mention the fact that you can do qualifications after a degree, your bachelor degree isn't the be all and end all - 'this is what you will do until you die'. For example, I've known people to do geography and then go into accountancy - where is the link between the two? There is none. They did the degree because they enjoyed it and then went into a suitable career.

Regarding the 'Whats the point of learning something at university that you could do at home?' idea, as others have mentioned, you can learn almost any subject on the planet that is taught at university on your own, at home (apart from things requiring laboratories and such) - thanks to the internet and the millions upon millions of books and research papers etc. I could start learning economics to degree level tomorrow if I wanted to, or computer science etc etc

HOWEVER, it is true if you turned up in Japan one day with your only skills being that you speak Japanese and English, you might find it difficult to find any good jobs apart from those teaching English or basic translation. So it would be necessary to get some qualifications after your degree, or work in the Japanese offices of a British company.

Finally, you get out of a degree what you put in, I guarantee you that those people who come out of uni speaking poor Japanese are those that do not put one modicum of effort into learning it in their own time. If you self-study in your own time to supplement your degree learning (as one should do with any degree, after all it's meant to be a subject you actually want to learn), following the AJATT method for example, and hang out with Japanese people and speak as much as you can in Japanese on your year abroad, then there is no reason why you shouldn't be near-fluent.

TLDR version: If you want to do Japanese, then do Japanese. There are many ways you can specialise after your degree, and not every arts student ends up poor and unemployed (or in a dead-end job) - that's why graduate schemes exist.

PS. For advice pertaining to translation, the posts by other people above are obviously a lot more informative! But my advice relates to studying the degree itself.

PPS. Yes, I realise my post is insanely long, sorry for ranting.