I have a problem that many of you would probably kill for. I have too much time to study. The isssue is that the quality of what I'm doing per hour has dropped so badly that I have come to you wise souls for advice.

The brass tacks:
- basically have unlimited time for next 6-12 months (Just have to do the shopping, housework, cooking and a couple of hours of work from home every few days - yes, i'm a kept man)
- have completed RTK1 (but have let reviews slide a quite a bit)
- passed JLPT3 last year but not quite sure how (no laughter at the back pls)
- working my way through KO2001 (the dodgy torrent version on anki for some unknown reason and i have the cd version). Any words that are really troublesome i write down and Iverson them next morning. It's going OK.
- studying grammar makes me want go the fridge get a beer and and start a bbq with any grammar books in the house (and there's plenty of them).
- i really want/need to pass JLPT2 this year for two reasons. One - to silence my critics. Two, to justify my kept man status. I know it means bugger all japanese wise but it's a bit of paper that will make many other people happpy (and thus me). Passing JLPT2 though is not my end goal or why i study japanese.
- have watched quite a few (ok - many) jdramas but always with english subs. Wasted so much time trying to find decent stuff with japanese subs with not much luck. I'm no fan of anime (no disrespect to those that do).

Basically my return per hour drops substantially the more i study. I'm making progress for sure, but while my methods feel right, i feel there is something missing.

Would especially love to hear from those that are able to add and retain so many new cards/facts a day such as blackmacros and similar or those that study for many hours a day. What are your daily routines like?

P.S. if you say make it fun, with no advice how, I will add you to my grammar book bbq

Make it work. j/k

Try starting with a block or two of time, making sure you have clear goals and have developed a 'meta' awareness of how you're meeting them and when structure and spontaneity rub one another the wrong way, or when they flow together, then add more and more blocks of time till you've got a fluid, effective regimen?

It looks like what you're missing/looking for is a sense of efficiency. To achieve that, you need to have clear goals; you need to an endpoint in order to be able to measure how efficiently you're getting there.

Your long term goal looks like its JLPT2. You'll need an appropriate level of vocabulary and grammar to achieve that.

You're already on track for the vocabulary section with KO.

Like it or not, you're going to have to put up with a grammar book if you want to pass that section. I've just finished Kanzen Master 2kyuu grammar, which I thought was relatively painless. Its only about 800 sentences, compared to the ~3000 in KO. You'll get through it much faster.

So my advice: JLPT2 is your long term goal. Completing KO and then KM are the short term tasks you need to complete to get there. Your sense of efficiency and achievement comes when you make measurable improvements on the rate at which you are achieving your short and long term goals.

Focus on one at a time (KO first) and get them done as quickly as you can. Further breaking down your goals can also help. Try doing 50 sentences from KO every day for a week. Then bump it up to 70. Then 100. Build up until you can handle the faster pace. (Oh and make sure you use Alternate Focus SRSing which I described in this thread [ http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=3447 ] so you can actually keep up the pace)

These are relevant:

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...part-2-fun
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...un-no-good
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...g-japanese

To sum up, forget about efficiency and have fun.

thermal Wrote:These are relevant:

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...part-2-fun
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...un-no-good
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blo...g-japanese

To sum up, forget about efficiency and have fun.

There are essentially two approaches here: mine natural sources that you find fun, or use efficiency based sources (and of course, variant combinations of the two. No one really does strictly one or the other). I actually think both are equally valid viewpoints.

I've come to the view that, for myself, an efficiency based learning approach is more fulfilling. I actually find KO, KM etc. fun because I'm learning. Further, I view my immersion environment as purely for fun (contrary to AJATT methodology which views it as a source of sentences). I use efficiency resources primarily so I don't have to mine my environment, and can just concentrate on enjoying it as my Japanese gets better [of course there are exceptions to this. I love using subs2srs to mine FMA -which is part of my immersion environment- for example. But I know myself, and I know that if I had tried to do that before KO I would have gotten frustrated by the difficulty, bored, and quit]. Not everyone will share this view, but thats ok. Most people will already know whether or not they will prefer mining fun, natural stuff or prefer powering through efficiency based resources.

Ah, sounds like my summer this year.
Fresh out of college, and totally unemployed.
I managed to cram in 2000 Japanese words in my head, reading, writing, and meaning.
I would basically study one hour in the morning (vocab memorization),
study two more hours in the afternoon (read short stories out loud and then review vocab cards),
study one more hour after dinner (quiz self on vocab, make new vocab cards for the next day)
and study for half an hour right before bed (tried to memorize as many new cards as I could.)

At a schedule like this I memorized an average of 40 words a day. The most words I have memorized in a day is 70.

Quote:P.S. if you say make it fun, with no advice how, I will add you to my grammar book bbq wink

Firstly, have a bbq with your grammar books. Ok maybe not, but don't study them! Use them to understand Japanese that is interesting to you.

Iverson is using English right? If you passed JLPT3 you should be ready for J-J only. Use http://www.sanseido.net/Index.aspx to start out.

Watching drama with english subs is not studying Japanese. You don't need Japanese subs. As an English speaker becoming good at listening to Japanese is far far easier than a Japanese speaker doing the same for English. Do your time of not understanding what the hell is going on and you will become able to understand it.

If "study" is boring the hell out of you listen to some Japanese music or audio and do some other (non-English) task. Cooking, cleaning, play guitar, stuff like that.

Look for equivalents of what you do in English in Japanese. For example, find equivalents of the websites you visit.

Don't intersperse your Japanese study with English stuff, especially not reading or writing and avoid listening and speaking as much as you can. You need to be exposed to Japanese without breaks (don't come here! ) to build up a Japanese mode.

Make your computer, the notes you write to yourself everything you can into Japanese. The concept is overwhelming force. Just don't force yourself to "study".

Are you sure you don't like anime? That's the equivalent of saying you don't like American movies. There is a LOT of crap, but anime just means animation. Unless you don't like animation as a medium there is likely stuff to your taste.

Why do you want to become good at Japanese?

blackmacross,

Fair enough. I have my viewpoints about which is better in the long term, but everyone has their own beliefs and study style I guess.

Where abouts are you living now? Have you been to Japan yet? How is your speaking?

I live in Australia at the moment, have yet to visit Japan. I'm planning (fingers crossed) to go to Japan on exchange in the 2nd half of next year for Uni, though. I've only been studying for 5 months at this point, and I have not specifically practiced it, so my speaking is lagging far behind. I'm not too bothered though- I don't expect to become good at speaking without practicing it. After the JLPT in December I will concentrate on practicing output (skype, lang8, Japanese friends at Uni, 1 on 1 conversation with a Japanese tutor etc).

Many many thanks for the responses.

I must admit I wrote my OP after a day of incredible frustration study wise and some attacks on my progress by those that have never really studied a foreign language. Add a few drinks to the mix and thus my post.

The good news is after reading the responses and not looking at anything remotely Japanese for a day i have regained my hunger.

Once again thank you to those that responded. You have no idea how much it has motivated me agian. A very big cheers to you all.

P.S. As for likes - I like realistic/plausible stuff. Doesn't mean i'm a non-fiction freak but I think to pull off a great story that is realistic/achievable is a much greater skill than fantasy stuff. Film wise Kamikaze Taxi would have to be one of my favourites of all time. I still like a great story whatever the genre/media though. As for dramas love foodie ones - eg. Kougen he Irasshai, Haikei Chichiue Sama. As for anime i like to empathaise (or sleep with ) with a character and i just don't feel it when something is animated. I need the real facial expressions. However if anyone has any suggestions on anime i should watch I'm more than happy to try them out.

P.P.S. Blackmarcos you hit the naill on the head. Efficiency is what i was looking for and your advice and tips are greatly appreciated. While JLPT2 is a short term goal i want to make the most of the free time i have been gifted so i can achieve the longer goal of being proficient (too scared to say fluent due to its many definitions).

Hmmm - promised myself to keep this response short and sweet but the hunger is back and i want to tell the world!!!

Go to "www.amazon.co.jp" and order a as many good movies as you can afford. Then watch them with Japanese audio and Japanese subtitles. Books are also good!

My reason for not spending time doing fun stuff in Japanese used to be a very limited selection. Now the situation has improved a lot after I came back from my last trip to Japan with luggage full of dvd's and books that I have always enjoyed reading in other languages. On top of that I'm in the process of graduating (i.e. mostly waiting for other people to check my thesis) so I now have a lots of free time too and can easily lose track of time for days while enveloped in my little Japanese bubble and adding all the interesting stuff (that I encounter without any effort!) to my SRS.

I myself am in a stage where I don't really encounter any new grammar anymore so mostly its just building vocabulary for me and the only "study" I do, is doing my anki reps and adding stuff. So you should propably follow somekind of a study plan too but don't over do it. Keep it enjoyable. My personal problem has always been too strict plans for my studies but I find that I learn and make progress the best when I don't plan too much ahead. Thinking too much about how many cards I'll have in my deck at such and such a date (and being overly optimistic about it) is a surefire way to burn yourself up. Atleast for me..

I think that familiar movies are especially good for starting to build the environment. It is easy to follow a familiar story and if you have lots of choices, you can easily swich the second you get bored. It never becomes a chore!

The only downside is that ordering stuff from a non-EU country at the other side of the planet really costs honey that I don't really have too much but..

Free time is a blessing (I know it now that I have it for a change!) and using it wisely gives you productive relaxation. ^^ Just make sure that the only English (or whatever) is in the dictionary and not there somewhere disturbing your japanese bubble!

Cheers!

How about joining some Japanese groups in the area?

Try to find groups and classes that are mainly attended
by Japanese people.

If you're looking enough to live in NYC, Chicago, LA,
or any city with a good-sized Japanese population (btw,
are you in Japan?), there is usually a local newspaper in
Japanese that lists events all around the city. Go to these
events and you will discover where all the Japanese people
have been hiding....LOL....

It's a nice break from the daily grind of SRS and Japanese study at home/work.
And you might even get lucky and make Japanese friends (and if you're REALLY
lucky they won't speak any other language besides Japanese :-)......

I recently started taking some Japanese taiko drum classes
and none of the instructors speak much English. When they realized
I knew some Japanese, they decided that all future classes
will be in Japanese only (no more broken English translations just to
help me out). So I'm forced (well it's actually a pleasure :-) to do
everything in Japanese.

P.S. On a random note, Japanese have vocab/phrases for taiko(and rhythm music in general). It tells you which part of the drum to hit as well as the timing. Check it out: (http://www.taiko.com/taiko_resource/learn.html)

I'm practically in the same boat in terms of free time. I'm even going for JLPT2 in December.

My study regime has been to finish RTK which I did a while ago, then I moved on to mining natural sentences but it was too slow. So I switched to doing KO using the pre-made Anki deck with audio (huge bonus) and I blazed the first 1000 cards of that in a week. Big improvement. I do 100 sentences from it per day which equals 200 cards. This means that eventually 3 - 4 Hours max will be spent review and 1 - 1.5 hours adding new cards.

Getting through the rest will take me another 3.5 weeks at this pace.
Then on to make a grammar deck more comprehensive than Tae Kim which i've done 70% of and understand virtually all the grammar in KO thus far.

After that I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do but I have a feeling i'll be able to mine from natural sources at least 3x faster than before which is efficient enough for me to give it a go.

I'm considering turning my KO deck into something else once I'm finished with it. IE take all the reading cards I find a little tricky to PRODUCE the grammar for and do cloze deletion on the grammar point I want to be able to produce from memory. I figure I could blitz a deck like this in a week or two after reworking it. I also think it would be a huge gain in production ability in terms of using the correct particle where I otherwise would have tripped up.

For fun, PSP, PS2 and PSX games all in Japanese often occupy me. I watch a few anime but usually only an ep a day. Movies are great when I get my hands on them too! Currently looking to break into doramas.

IceCream Wrote:what kind of things are you into in real life? I spend all my time studying japanese, if you tell me I can give you some ideas....

IceCream - What I want(to train my listening) is non-fiction essays/books(linguistics history/ sociology being my favorites) written in long essay written form style. in non-abridged audio book format so that I can follow along with the book and work on listening.

Tons of these exist in English, I've yet to really find in any Japanese, If anyone knows of some there would be love.

____

Also Random point here: Watch out, I always want to learn too much but I just pile on sentences in my srs. and I just checked my deck and I literately do more then 1100+ reps a day, that's a bit insane.

Get Kanzen Master Nihongo Nouryoku Shiken Bunpou Mondai Taisaku 2kyuu. I know you don't like grammar and all that, but this one is pretty much just tons of example sentences for all the grammar you need for JLPT2. Going through all of it not only means you have all the grammar down, you also learn tons of vocabulary relevant for JLPT2. IMO, this is what you should do first (KO2001 is good, but according to a test someone here did lately, it covers like.. 40-60% of the JLPT2 vocab, so it's not a "safe-card" in the same way that kanzen master is).

@Tobberoth I found that after doing KO, I probably only encountered new words once every 2 or 3 sentences in KM2kyuu grammar. It was enough for the book to be useful both in terms of vocab and grammar, but little enough to indicate that KO is extremely valuable in getting you up to speed on JLPT2 vocab.

koyota Wrote:Also Random point here: Watch out, I always want to learn too much but I just pile on sentences in my srs. and I just checked my deck and I literately do more then 1100+ reps a day, that's a bit insane.

How much free time do you have? You must be adding at least 200+ sentences a day to have so many reviews. I only reached around 900 a day when going through KO2001.

blackmacros Wrote:

koyota Wrote:Also Random point here: Watch out, I always want to learn too much but I just pile on sentences in my srs. and I just checked my deck and I literately do more then 1100+ reps a day, that's a bit insane.

How much free time do you have? You must be adding at least 200+ sentences a day to have so many reviews. I only reached around 900 a day when going through KO2001.

All my decks combined have 12338 cards (maybe about 5000 of 12338 are repeat production / recognition), (add in another 2000 or so for IKNOW 6000 which I do if I feel like I have some free time)

I add about 50-60 cards a day. Probably my 2 main problems are I fail a lot of cards because I do production and recognition cards. (aka Japanese Definition and sentence, fill in the blanks, or English definition of the word/ Japanese sentence, fill in the black ) Also I don't bother to learn most words before I put them in Anki. and my O.C.D makes me mark almost every card as Hard.

I find recognition cards don't make me work enough, I end up just memorizing the concept of sentence/ the word in that sentence. if I see it in a different context it seems brand new to me. and I can't ever recall the actual word.

I just think you need to read through AJATT.
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com
Pretty much all of your problems are addressed there.
You're in the stage of feeling like you're learning, but you're not really sure. The answer to that for me was AJATT; by being completely in Japanese 24-7, I know that there's no way I'm not learning.

If you have tons of free time, why not contribute part of your studies to the general cause? Start a blog and write articles about Japanese

IceCream Wrote:@koyota:
have you seen these sites?
http://www.otogaku.com
http://www.febe.jp
...

Wow thank you! I actually found, on the front page, a book I stopped reading a week ago because it was a bit boring, but the audio is going to get me to plow through it

Thank you kindly sir!

Holy crap IceCream thats a mountain of awesome recommendations. I need to get my hands on some of that stuff. I know it wasn't intended for me, but it was damn useful anyway! Thanks!

IceCream Wrote:Aside from food, "Liar Game" is really very good, though i can't find subs for it.

Liar Game was based on a manga, though I don't know how close it is to the drama in terms of dialogue.

IceCream Wrote:@Rooboy, decided to have a look tonight.

hmm, food dramas are kind of hard, because i haven't watched any really that are only foody. However, there are subs for the first 3 episodes of Osama no Restauran here: http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopic_50892.htm, and you can check out the first episode here: http://www.veoh.com/collection/KingResta...99xg5jW58h to see if you like it. There's also subs for the first 3 episodes of Osen http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopic_60794.htm, again, i haven't watched.

A drama i have seen that i really enjoyed was Ryuusei no Kizuna. It's kind of half crime / half about a family who used to run a restaurant. All the subs are available here: http://www.d-addicts.com/forum/viewtopic_66426.htm or there's a premade subs2SRS deck on the sub2SRS deck downloads page.

I don't know if you would like Zettai Kareshi, it's not very fantasy, really, but about a perfect boyfriend robot. The woman works for a cake designing place, so it's also a little bit foody. It's really funny, and easy japanese, which is nice. You can also get subs for that too.

I've also heard of a drama called Konkatsu, but no idea if it's good or not...

Aside from food, "Liar Game" is really very good, though i can't find subs for it. It's about a swindler who helps out a really naive girl against some company. Id definately recommend this, it's great, and should get your attention quickly.

On psychological or crime stuff, i've also heard good stuff about Kurosagi and Mr Brain, though i haven't watched either yet. Mr Brain has subs.

I like a few more girly ones, 2 good one's i've watched are oh! my girl (has subs), and atashinchi no danshi (doesn't). Both are light and easy to watch, aren't so girly you'll puke, and aren't love stories.

There are more serious dramas as well, but i don't really get into them so much. I don't know if that's what you meant by what you were saying, or whether you just meant as long as it doesn't contain elves and stuff it's ok. Dramas tend to go from comedy -> really depressing, with not much real life stuff in between as far as i've seen. I guess high school dramas or love dramas kind of fall in the middle somewhere, though i haven't got into either.

On the more depressing side, if you're into that,
I remember watching a film called "nobody knows" at a cinema years ago, it's quite harsh reality, i wouldn't give it even close to 5* but it does show you some of japan other than the flashy stuff.
1 litre of tears ive heard loads of people say it's good.
Aishiteru is about a little boy who kills another little boy, based on some real life stuff in Japan, though tbh i found it unwatchable and slightly tedious.

The girl who jumped through time is a really beautiful anime film, if you wanted to try anime. All the Hayao Miyazaki Ghibli ones are great too...

All those are available online. Some other movies i liked were "stray dog" by Kurozawa (i really need to check out more of his stuff) and Tokyo Drifter, which is about the Yakuza and loss of sense of honour. It is absolutely beautifully shot, if you haven't watched it, do! Sorry i can't help more on good films, but if you check out the stuff by the famous people, they're generally deserving of their fame...

hmm, if you don't get into any of this stuff, i'l try to recommend some other stuff...

There are subs for the LIAR GAME drama. It's on d-addicts.com.
I've watched the show.

A very famous (but older) TV drama about food is Lunch no Joou ("Lunch Queen").
There is even an official Lunch Queen cookbook with all the recipes from the drama.. :-)

Another somewhat recent drama is Bambino (with Matsumoto Jun), where the main character aspires to be an italian chef.

There was also a drama from a while back about a sushi chef. I forget what the title of it was..... :-(

IceCream Wrote:Aishiteru is about a little boy who kills another little boy, based on some real life stuff in Japan, though tbh i found it unwatchable and slightly tedious.

Haha I loved Aishiteru. I can definitely see how it wouldn't really be everybody's thing. It really did drag on at parts.

Akai Ito is probably my favorite, though it seems like the target demographic is teenage girls rather than guys in college, whatever, I was hooked.
Gokusen is incredible (Dorky math teacher + Yakuza boss? Yes please)
Ace wo Nerae is also a really good one, especially if you have a mild interest in tennis

There was also a show I enjoyed about a girl who is homeless and on the run from the yakuza, and some rich eccentric toy maker pays off the debt on the conditions that she marries him for a month. Sounds crazy, but it held my interest. Can't remember the title for the life of me.

I've also heard good things about Watashitachi no kyokashou, but I've never seen it.

Atashinchi no danshi! Fantastic, I've been trying to figure out what show I was talking about for awhile, glad to be able to go back and start watching it again, thanks!

And it seems we do have opposite tastes, or rather I've just taken a liking to cheesy, overdramatic dramas haha. Although I'll definitely check out Great Teacher Onizuka, because if it's anything similar to Gokusen I'll most likely love it.